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#1
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Audio of Lancaster Under nightfighter attack
This has been posted before but there has been some debate as to its
authenticity. Its authenticity is now proved beyond doubt http://www.roger.beckwith.btinternet...epwar/lanc.jpg Reg Pidsley (left) with Wynford Vaughan Thomas in front of Lancaster F for Freddie of 207 Squadron prior to flying on a Berlin raid, 3rd September 1943. Reg recorded the voices of the crew during the flight. He later commented that when the bombs were released, "it was like going up in a lift" and the cutting head dug into the disc. Original, disputed clip from recording http://www.stolly.org.uk/lanc.wav Start of entire BBC recording http://www.stolly.org.uk/1-001.mp3 Under attack http://www.stolly.org.uk/2-001.mp3 Home safe http://www.stolly.org.uk/3-001.mp3 I have the whole recording from the sound archive at the IWM. |
#2
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"Stolly" wrote:
This has been posted before but there has been some debate as to its authenticity. Its authenticity is now proved beyond doubt Well...I hate to be a stick-in-the-mud but I just cannot see how this could be authentic. Please tell me how they managed to filter out the sound of 4 merlin engines at full power?. This guy is apparently talking all through the take-off run in a barely above conversational tone of voice. This just cannot happen, not on a Lancaster. There's so much noise on takeoff that nobody uses intercom then. The Pilots and Flight Engineer uses hand signals to indicate orders to vary power and to raise the gear etc. Sorry, I think it's faked. -- -Gord. |
#3
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Even if the mics could filter out the sound of the engines, going down the
runway at max power would cause some vibration (not only from the engines but from the landing gear bumping) in the speaker's voice. I don't hear any. I don't believe it is a real recording of an actual mission. The fact that somebody actually did get into a Lancaster, and tried to record what was going on, doesn't mean that what you are proffering is the actual recording. I would bet the recording didn't work at all, they got back home and taped it in a studio. Maybe with the actual crew or just actors. Maybe even somebody took notes and the words are true. Or maybe they had this tape prepared ahead of time just in case the real taping didn't come out. And used that. I have no problem believing that this recording was made during the war and released as an actual recording of a real bombing mission. People were in no position to question the validity of such a recording back then. Reporters faking stuff has been around for a long time. "Stolly" wrote in message ... This has been posted before but there has been some debate as to its authenticity. Its authenticity is now proved beyond doubt http://www.roger.beckwith.btinternet...epwar/lanc.jpg Reg Pidsley (left) with Wynford Vaughan Thomas in front of Lancaster F for Freddie of 207 Squadron prior to flying on a Berlin raid, 3rd September 1943. Reg recorded the voices of the crew during the flight. He later commented that when the bombs were released, "it was like going up in a lift" and the cutting head dug into the disc. Original, disputed clip from recording http://www.stolly.org.uk/lanc.wav Start of entire BBC recording http://www.stolly.org.uk/1-001.mp3 Under attack http://www.stolly.org.uk/2-001.mp3 Home safe http://www.stolly.org.uk/3-001.mp3 I have the whole recording from the sound archive at the IWM. |
#4
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Gord Beaman wrote in message
... Well...I hate to be a stick-in-the-mud but I just cannot see how this could be authentic. Please tell me how they managed to filter out the sound of 4 merlin engines at full power?. This guy is apparently talking all through the take-off run in a barely above conversational tone of voice. This just cannot happen, not on a Lancaster. There's so much noise on takeoff that nobody uses intercom then. The Pilots and Flight Engineer uses hand signals to indicate orders to vary power and to raise the gear etc. Sorry, I think it's faked. -- -Gord. Not to mention the quality of the carbon microphones that must have been used back then. It sounds like a professional reenactment or a training tape. Not the slightest hint of engine noise and the voices sound clearer and cleaner than through a modern intercom system. Sounds fake to me. -- Scott -------- "So far, fewer troops have been killed by hostile fire since the end of major combat in Iraq than civilians were murdered in Washington, D.C., last year (239 deaths in Iraq compared to 262 murders in D.C.). How many years has it been since we declared the end of major U.S. combat operations against Marion Barry's regime? How long before we just give up and pull out of that hellish quagmire known as Washington, D.C.?" Ann Coulter http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2003/110503.htm |
#5
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In message , Blair Maynard
writes Even if the mics could filter out the sound of the engines, going down the runway at max power would cause some vibration (not only from the engines but from the landing gear bumping) in the speaker's voice. I don't hear any. I don't believe it is a real recording of an actual mission. The fact that somebody actually did get into a Lancaster, and tried to record what was going on, doesn't mean that what you are proffering is the actual recording. I would bet the recording didn't work at all, they got back home and taped it in a studio. Maybe with the actual crew or just actors. Maybe even somebody took notes and the words are true. Or maybe they had this tape prepared ahead of time just in case the real taping didn't come out. And used that. I have no problem believing that this recording was made during the war and released as an actual recording of a real bombing mission. People were in no position to question the validity of such a recording back then. Tape? Mike -- M.J.Powell |
#6
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It was recorded on a disk not tape.
If you are convinced it is not real then you are also convinced that A. The picture of them stood outside the aircraft is faked. B. They faked it in less than 12 hours since it was broadcast later the same day. C The BBC and Imperial War Museum, to this day, are in on the conspiracy. D. 207 Squadron Association are also in on the conspiracy since the had a renunion in 1983 and invited the BBC reporter there as reported here http://www.207squadron.rafinfo.org.uk/default.htm . They got together 40 years later for the express purpose of remembering the recording and broadcasting of this recording. Are you REALLY suggesting that they got together 40 years later to remember something that never happened ? Seriously you are ignoring all the above in favour of not believing that the BBC knew how to filter noise. They were a world class broadcasting service. You would certainly imagine they had sound engineers that knew what they were doing. I have the whole 40 minute recording from the IWM sound archive. I payed £20 for it. Are you saying that I should report the Imperial War Museum for commiting fraud in that they are knowingly selling faked recordings ? Or perhaps a museum with a international reputation has been duped themselves and that you know better based on a hunch that the engines are not loud enough ? "M. J. Powell" wrote in message ... In message , Blair Maynard writes Even if the mics could filter out the sound of the engines, going down the runway at max power would cause some vibration (not only from the engines but from the landing gear bumping) in the speaker's voice. I don't hear any. I don't believe it is a real recording of an actual mission. The fact that somebody actually did get into a Lancaster, and tried to record what was going on, doesn't mean that what you are proffering is the actual recording. I would bet the recording didn't work at all, they got back home and taped it in a studio. Maybe with the actual crew or just actors. Maybe even somebody took notes and the words are true. Or maybe they had this tape prepared ahead of time just in case the real taping didn't come out. And used that. I have no problem believing that this recording was made during the war and released as an actual recording of a real bombing mission. People were in no position to question the validity of such a recording back then. Tape? Mike -- M.J.Powell |
#7
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"tscottme" wrote:
Gord Beaman wrote in message .. . Well...I hate to be a stick-in-the-mud but I just cannot see how this could be authentic. Please tell me how they managed to filter out the sound of 4 merlin engines at full power?. This guy is apparently talking all through the take-off run in a barely above conversational tone of voice. This just cannot happen, not on a Lancaster. There's so much noise on takeoff that nobody uses intercom then. The Pilots and Flight Engineer uses hand signals to indicate orders to vary power and to raise the gear etc. Sorry, I think it's faked. -- -Gord. Not to mention the quality of the carbon microphones that must have been used back then. It sounds like a professional reenactment or a training tape. Not the slightest hint of engine noise and the voices sound clearer and cleaner than through a modern intercom system. Sounds fake to me. Quite true, we did use carbon mics (at least in peacetime Lancasters - early fifties). They were type T-17, for pic see: http://members.aol.com/tcsopr/t17mic.htm -- -Gord. |
#8
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"Blair Maynard" wrote in message ... I don't believe it is a real recording of an actual mission. The fact that somebody actually did get into a Lancaster, and tried to record what was going on, doesn't mean that what you are proffering is the actual recording. I would bet the recording didn't work at all, they got back home and taped it in a studio. Maybe with the actual crew or just actors. Maybe even somebody took notes and the words are true. Or maybe they had this tape prepared ahead of time just in case the real taping didn't come out. And used that. I have no problem believing that this recording was made during the war and released as an actual recording of a real bombing mission. People were in no position to question the validity of such a recording back then. Wire recording...possibly. Tape? Do you know something we don't? Tex |
#9
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"Stolly" wrote:
It was recorded on a disk not tape. If you are convinced it is not real then you are also convinced that A. The picture of them stood outside the aircraft is faked. Hardly now...why does it follow?..don't be silly sir... Incidentally, although it certainly isn't any kind of proof but our Lancs didn't have that row of small windows all down along the stbd side of the a/c, but if you Google for the 'Manchester Bomber' it does, exactly like these. Are you sure that these two guys aren't standing beside a Manchester?. There's not enough of the a/c showing for me to tell. B. They faked it in less than 12 hours since it was broadcast later the same day. And that sounds impossible for the BBC??...as I said, don't be silly sir... C The BBC and Imperial War Museum, to this day, are in on the conspiracy. D. 207 Squadron Association are also in on the conspiracy since the had a renunion in 1983 and invited the BBC reporter there as reported here http://www.207squadron.rafinfo.org.uk/default.htm . They got together 40 years later for the express purpose of remembering the recording and broadcasting of this recording. Are you REALLY suggesting that they got together 40 years later to remember something that never happened ? Seriously you are ignoring all the above in favour of not believing that the BBC knew how to filter noise. They were a world class broadcasting service. You would certainly imagine they had sound engineers that knew what they were doing. I have the whole 40 minute recording from the IWM sound archive. I payed £20 for it. Are you saying that I should report the Imperial War Museum for commiting fraud in that they are knowingly selling faked recordings ? Or perhaps a museum with a international reputation has been duped themselves and that you know better based on a hunch that the engines are not loud enough ? I know that this looks bad for me...but I find it very difficult to believe that the announcer is sitting in a Lanc as he talks about "...moving down the runway and just now we lift off and climb away..." etc. If you ever actually sat in a Lancaster during takeoff you'd know...the noise is deafeningly loud...deafening... Literally. The Canadian government pays me a 35% hearing disability pension for listening to that deafening sound (for about 575 hours) along with the exposure that I suffered on other less loud a/c since. You have to take some of the responsibility for this too Stolly, you made the barefaced claim that it was authentic with no cite at all. This time you supplied a cite but didn't point out any connection to this recording in that article. I searched all through your article and found this somewhere in there (I believe it was in 'A brief history') quote: The famous BBC recording of a raid on Berlin, commentary by Wynford Vaughan-Thomas, was made on 3rd September 1943 with Flt Lt Ken Letford's crew in EM-F for Freddie. unquote So there you are...do I think that it's authentic?...well, I have no doubt that it was made during the war, and probably for PR reasons so it certainly has value (had?)...do I think that it used the talents of the flight crew?...sure. Do I believe that there's some conspiricy?...nah. Do I think that it was RECORDED IN FLIGHT on a LANCASTER?...sorry, I just cannot believe that. As talented as the BBC techs might have been, the 'white noise' of four Merlins at full bellow is fearsome to behold yet there's almost no evidence of it here (I can occasionally hear what might be some faint engine sounds 'way in the background). The announcer sounds relatively calm and is speaking relatively quietly, certainly not the case if he were actually shouting to be heard above the unholy racket of 4 Merlins. It's human nature to shout when you cannot hear...notice hearing impaired people, they speak loudly because they can't hear themselves very well. -- -Gord. |
#10
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As you correctly point out the Manchester did have that row of windows.
As i am sure you also know the Lanc is a very close relative of the Manchester and early Lancasters were uncompleted Manchesters with new wings etc. So many early Lancasters started life as Manchesters and did indeed have the windows. Since this is 1943 it is entirely correct that early Lancasters were still in service. "Gord Beaman" wrote in message ... "Stolly" wrote: It was recorded on a disk not tape. If you are convinced it is not real then you are also convinced that A. The picture of them stood outside the aircraft is faked. Hardly now...why does it follow?..don't be silly sir... Incidentally, although it certainly isn't any kind of proof but our Lancs didn't have that row of small windows all down along the stbd side of the a/c, but if you Google for the 'Manchester Bomber' it does, exactly like these. Are you sure that these two guys aren't standing beside a Manchester?. There's not enough of the a/c showing for me to tell. B. They faked it in less than 12 hours since it was broadcast later the same day. And that sounds impossible for the BBC??...as I said, don't be silly sir... C The BBC and Imperial War Museum, to this day, are in on the conspiracy. D. 207 Squadron Association are also in on the conspiracy since the had a renunion in 1983 and invited the BBC reporter there as reported here http://www.207squadron.rafinfo.org.uk/default.htm . They got together 40 years later for the express purpose of remembering the recording and broadcasting of this recording. Are you REALLY suggesting that they got together 40 years later to remember something that never happened ? Seriously you are ignoring all the above in favour of not believing that the BBC knew how to filter noise. They were a world class broadcasting service. You would certainly imagine they had sound engineers that knew what they were doing. I have the whole 40 minute recording from the IWM sound archive. I payed £20 for it. Are you saying that I should report the Imperial War Museum for commiting fraud in that they are knowingly selling faked recordings ? Or perhaps a museum with a international reputation has been duped themselves and that you know better based on a hunch that the engines are not loud enough ? I know that this looks bad for me...but I find it very difficult to believe that the announcer is sitting in a Lanc as he talks about "...moving down the runway and just now we lift off and climb away..." etc. If you ever actually sat in a Lancaster during takeoff you'd know...the noise is deafeningly loud...deafening... Literally. The Canadian government pays me a 35% hearing disability pension for listening to that deafening sound (for about 575 hours) along with the exposure that I suffered on other less loud a/c since. You have to take some of the responsibility for this too Stolly, you made the barefaced claim that it was authentic with no cite at all. This time you supplied a cite but didn't point out any connection to this recording in that article. I searched all through your article and found this somewhere in there (I believe it was in 'A brief history') quote: The famous BBC recording of a raid on Berlin, commentary by Wynford Vaughan-Thomas, was made on 3rd September 1943 with Flt Lt Ken Letford's crew in EM-F for Freddie. unquote So there you are...do I think that it's authentic?...well, I have no doubt that it was made during the war, and probably for PR reasons so it certainly has value (had?)...do I think that it used the talents of the flight crew?...sure. Do I believe that there's some conspiricy?...nah. Do I think that it was RECORDED IN FLIGHT on a LANCASTER?...sorry, I just cannot believe that. As talented as the BBC techs might have been, the 'white noise' of four Merlins at full bellow is fearsome to behold yet there's almost no evidence of it here (I can occasionally hear what might be some faint engine sounds 'way in the background). The announcer sounds relatively calm and is speaking relatively quietly, certainly not the case if he were actually shouting to be heard above the unholy racket of 4 Merlins. It's human nature to shout when you cannot hear...notice hearing impaired people, they speak loudly because they can't hear themselves very well. -- -Gord. |
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