Meting with a Lancaster rear gunner

Greetings all,

I was lucky enough to meet an ex-RAF rear gunner last week. Couldn't
chat for long, but he shared a few memories with me, so I thought I'd
pass them on.

I suppose he was either lucky or skilled. He was a rear gunner between
1940 and 1946, first Wellingtons, then Lancs, and although he never
claimed for a kill he must have scared off a few fighters simply to have
survived. Some of what he had to say is undoubtedly well known, but a
couple of bits were new to me.

First the electrically heated suit. Rarely worked properly, and when it
did it was known to provide the occasional electrical shock. So, he
spent many operations feeling quite cold. Also, the gauntlets were so
cumbersome he preferred to take them off if he wanted to do anything
fiddly, and that was when his skin would stick to any metal fittings it
touched. (A few hours at 20,000 feet must qualify for a cold soak.)

When you look at a photo of a Lanc rear turret you can see a couple of
chutes, one either side, to allow the spent cases to exit the turret.
His experience was that a lot of them ended up on the floor of the
turret, and if he had to stand up to do anything his feet would fly out
from under him.

At the end of the operation the gunners had to remove their guns from
the turrets and take them back to the armoury and clean them. This they
did with loving care as they wanted the guns to work properly the next
night...

Finally, I had wondered whether the sounds in the rear turret of a Lanc
would include the hammering of the gun breeches (re. recording of WVT's
flight on a bomber raid), but he put that one to rest - the business end
of the Brownings drowned out anything else.

What did your pair of Brownings on the front turret sound like, Gord?

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

Dave Eadsforth wrote:


Finally, I had wondered whether the sounds in the rear turret of a Lanc
would include the hammering of the gun breeches (re. recording of WVT's
flight on a bomber raid), but he put that one to rest - the business end
of the Brownings drowned out anything else.

What did your pair of Brownings on the front turret sound like, Gord?

Cheers,

Dave

Surprisingly quiet Dave, mind you the ambient noise level was
pretty high anyway. I was pretty nervous the first time that I
fired them being very familiar with a .303 rifle. My dad owned a
..303 Ross that I had put a slew of ammo through while growing up.

Then a helluva lot more after I started flying and stealing
hundreds of belted .303 rounds (oops - don't tell please).

What was very noticeable was the smell of cordite, very strong,
as one would expect from the front turret. We always had 1000
rounds to fire on each 'bombing and gunnery' ops.

Was lots of fun firing tracer from Dad's rifle at a big open
hillside on his farm.
--

-Gord.

In article , Gord Beaman
?@?.? writes
Dave Eadsforth wrote:


Finally, I had wondered whether the sounds in the rear turret of a Lanc
would include the hammering of the gun breeches (re. recording of WVT's
flight on a bomber raid), but he put that one to rest - the business end
of the Brownings drowned out anything else.

What did your pair of Brownings on the front turret sound like, Gord?

Cheers,

Dave

Surprisingly quiet Dave, mind you the ambient noise level was
pretty high anyway.

I guess it was - since you would have had a pair of Merlins in each ear,
something the rear gunner was spared.

I was pretty nervous the first time that I
fired them being very familiar with a .303 rifle. My dad owned a
.303 Ross that I had put a slew of ammo through while growing up.

Betcha kept that straight-pull bolt clean ;-)

Then a helluva lot more after I started flying and stealing
hundreds of belted .303 rounds (oops - don't tell please).

Your secret is safe with me...

What was very noticeable was the smell of cordite, very strong,
as one would expect from the front turret. We always had 1000
rounds to fire on each 'bombing and gunnery' ops.

One thing I forgot to mention in my original note was that the rear
gunner knew the flak was getting close when he could smell the fumes
from the exploding shells - despite wearing his oxygen mask. I wondered
how that could happen, but concluded that the 'G' masks (1943) onwards
were the first RAF masks to have exhalation vents, and some external
fumes could well have crept in that way.

Was lots of fun firing tracer from Dad's rifle at a big open
hillside on his farm.
--
I'll bet - but was the trace immediate rather than delayed? If so, lots
of boiling water down the barrel afterwards!

-Gord.

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

ubject: Meting with a Lancaster rear gunner
From: Dave Eadsforth

One thing I forgot to mention in my original note was that the rear
gunner knew the flak was getting close when he could smell the fumes
from the exploding shells - despite wearing his oxygen mask. I wondered

You know the flak is getting close when instead of just seeing a black puff
you can see the fiery red hot core as the shell bursts. Then it is
approaching fatal range. See FLAK on my website. We were in the middle of an
88 pattern.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In article , ArtKramr
writes
ubject: Meting with a Lancaster rear gunner
From: Dave Eadsforth

One thing I forgot to mention in my original note was that the rear
gunner knew the flak was getting close when he could smell the fumes
from the exploding shells - despite wearing his oxygen mask. I wondered

You know the flak is getting close when instead of just seeing a black puff
you can see the fiery red hot core as the shell bursts. Then it is
approaching fatal range. See FLAK on my website. We were in the middle of an
88 pattern.

Arthur Kramer

Hi Art,

I just look a fresh look at your photograph and I was reminded of the
statistics for the 88mm shell. Blast lethal up to 30 yards and
fragments lethal up to 200 yards, I'm told. I guess that as a
bombardier you had a front seat - and no popcorn.

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

Subject: Meting with a Lancaster rear gunner
From: Dave Eadsforth
Date: 11/16/03 12:09 AM Pac

Hi Art,

I just look a fresh look at your photograph and I was reminded of the
statistics for the 88mm shell. Blast lethal up to 30 yards and
fragments lethal up to 200 yards, I'm told. I guess that as a
bombardier you had a front seat - and no popcorn.

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth


Hi Dave,

If you have to watch a war the nose of a bomber is a great place from which to
watch. (grin) Those black puffs were no longer dangerous.The shrapnell falls
away immediately and you can fly right through those black puffs with impunity.
Funny feeing though.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

In article ,
Dave Eadsforth writes:
What was very noticeable was the smell of cordite, very strong,
as one would expect from the front turret. We always had 1000
rounds to fire on each 'bombing and gunnery' ops.

One thing I forgot to mention in my original note was that the rear
gunner knew the flak was getting close when he could smell the fumes
from the exploding shells - despite wearing his oxygen mask. I wondered
how that could happen, but concluded that the 'G' masks (1943) onwards
were the first RAF masks to have exhalation vents, and some external
fumes could well have crept in that way.

Not so much a question of the outlet vents, which, like thos of gas
masks, aren't going to allow any outside air in, but of teh Oxygen
System itself. During World War 2, everybody was using "Diluter" or
"Economiser" (If you're a Brit) Oxygen systems, Thse used a
regulator/mixer with an aneroid widget inside to mix a measured amount
of oxygen with outside air. (Low altitude = less, High Altitude =
more, until above, say, 30,000' it's pure Oxygen) This was done to
cut down on the rate of Oxygen consumption, whigch, for a multi-crewed
airplane, like a Heavy Bomber, wouldn't otherwise be able to carry
enough Oxygen for a typical mission. THe Germans an, since about 1941
or so, the U.S., went a bit further, and developed "Diluter Demand"
systems, which only allowed Oxygen flow while the crewman was
inhaling. (That's what the white blinker on the Oxygen regulator
console of a U.S aircraft is tied to). This cut consumption back
even further.

So, if you're flying through a smoke cloud from a fire, or a flak
burst, or the gun gas coming from your muzzles, you'd smell it.
(Never experienced that myself - But I do know that if you're flying
over South Dakota you can smell the cows.)

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

(Peter Stickney) wrote:


So, if you're flying through a smoke cloud from a fire, or a flak
burst, or the gun gas coming from your muzzles, you'd smell it.
(Never experienced that myself - But I do know that if you're flying
over South Dakota you can smell the cows.)

Quite true about the 'Diluter/demand' system. There's also a
selector on that valve which selects between diluter and 100%. We
usually used the 100% pos'n to 'clear the head' on those early
morning blues kind of days...t'was likely as not that the
benefits of this were 'all in yer head' too.

But...whatever turned yer crank I guess.
--

-Gord.

In article , Peter Stickney
writes
In article ,
Dave Eadsforth writes:
What was very noticeable was the smell of cordite, very strong,
as one would expect from the front turret. We always had 1000
rounds to fire on each 'bombing and gunnery' ops.

One thing I forgot to mention in my original note was that the rear
gunner knew the flak was getting close when he could smell the fumes
from the exploding shells - despite wearing his oxygen mask. I wondered
how that could happen, but concluded that the 'G' masks (1943) onwards
were the first RAF masks to have exhalation vents, and some external
fumes could well have crept in that way.

Not so much a question of the outlet vents, which, like thos of gas
masks, aren't going to allow any outside air in, but of teh Oxygen
System itself. During World War 2, everybody was using "Diluter" or
"Economiser" (If you're a Brit) Oxygen systems, Thse used a
regulator/mixer with an aneroid widget inside to mix a measured amount
of oxygen with outside air. (Low altitude = less, High Altitude =
more, until above, say, 30,000' it's pure Oxygen) This was done to
cut down on the rate of Oxygen consumption, whigch, for a multi-crewed
airplane, like a Heavy Bomber, wouldn't otherwise be able to carry
enough Oxygen for a typical mission. THe Germans an, since about 1941
or so, the U.S., went a bit further, and developed "Diluter Demand"
systems, which only allowed Oxygen flow while the crewman was
inhaling. (That's what the white blinker on the Oxygen regulator
console of a U.S aircraft is tied to). This cut consumption back
even further.

So, if you're flying through a smoke cloud from a fire, or a flak
burst, or the gun gas coming from your muzzles, you'd smell it.
(Never experienced that myself - But I do know that if you're flying
over South Dakota you can smell the cows.)

Thanks for that, Peter; I had heard of the economiser but had no
knowledge of how it worked. I did know that the early oxygen systems
were not force feed, which led to hypoxia (or anoxia - whichever term
you like best) in photo-reconnaissance pilots and less fit crewmen, but
no idea of the dilution. No wonder...

Re. cows, has not the methane from the world's cattle been identified as
a major contribution to reduction of the ozone layer? Damn good reason
not to be vegetarian - eat more meat...and quicker...God bless Atkins...

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

Dave Eadsforth wrote:
In article , Peter Stickney
writes

In article ,
Dave Eadsforth writes:

What was very noticeable was the smell of cordite, very strong,
as one would expect from the front turret. We always had 1000
rounds to fire on each 'bombing and gunnery' ops.


One thing I forgot to mention in my original note was that the rear
gunner knew the flak was getting close when he could smell the fumes
from the exploding shells - despite wearing his oxygen mask. I wondered
how that could happen, but concluded that the 'G' masks (1943) onwards
were the first RAF masks to have exhalation vents, and some external
fumes could well have crept in that way.

Not so much a question of the outlet vents, which, like thos of gas
masks, aren't going to allow any outside air in, but of teh Oxygen
System itself. During World War 2, everybody was using "Diluter" or
"Economiser" (If you're a Brit) Oxygen systems, Thse used a
regulator/mixer with an aneroid widget inside to mix a measured amount
of oxygen with outside air. (Low altitude = less, High Altitude =
more, until above, say, 30,000' it's pure Oxygen) This was done to
cut down on the rate of Oxygen consumption, whigch, for a multi-crewed
airplane, like a Heavy Bomber, wouldn't otherwise be able to carry
enough Oxygen for a typical mission. THe Germans an, since about 1941
or so, the U.S., went a bit further, and developed "Diluter Demand"
systems, which only allowed Oxygen flow while the crewman was
inhaling. (That's what the white blinker on the Oxygen regulator
console of a U.S aircraft is tied to). This cut consumption back
even further.

So, if you're flying through a smoke cloud from a fire, or a flak
burst, or the gun gas coming from your muzzles, you'd smell it.
(Never experienced that myself - But I do know that if you're flying
over South Dakota you can smell the cows.)


Thanks for that, Peter; I had heard of the economiser but had no
knowledge of how it worked. I did know that the early oxygen systems
were not force feed, which led to hypoxia (or anoxia - whichever term
you like best) in photo-reconnaissance pilots and less fit crewmen, but
no idea of the dilution. No wonder...

Re. cows, has not the methane from the world's cattle been identified as
a major contribution to reduction of the ozone layer?

Greenhouse effect.

Damn good reason
not to be vegetarian - eat more meat...and quicker...God bless Atkins...

John