New Army Aviation Options?

I just wanted to start a new thread specifically to look at the new aircraft
the Army is talking about buying instead of the Comanche, and see what
options there are available. As I read the briefings, there are basically
three new manned platforms. I doubt there is funding for new designs in any
of these roles. While it is really premature to say too much, with no
actual performance requirements set, I'm curious what options folks see for
each.

1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to be bought).

Could this be a Sikorsky H-76?

The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an option?

2) Light Utility Helicopter (303 to be bought)

I know the Bell 412 has been mentioned.

Might the Marine Corps UH-1Y also be a candidate? (Is this Huey II?)

3) C-XX Intra-Theater Lift (25 to be bought)

Presumably C-27J is the frontrunner. What other options are there?


--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

"Thomas Schoene" wrote in message
ink.net...
I just wanted to start a new thread specifically to look at the new
aircraft
the Army is talking about buying instead of the Comanche, and see what
options there are available. As I read the briefings, there are basically
three new manned platforms. I doubt there is funding for new designs in
any
of these roles. While it is really premature to say too much, with no
actual performance requirements set, I'm curious what options folks see
for
each.

1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to be bought).

Could this be a Sikorsky H-76?

The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an
option?

I'd say both could be potential candidates, as could the MD 600 or 900
series (though the Army has in the past rather disliked the NOTAR concept,
having modified those MH-6's they had in that configuration back to
conventional tail rotor designs). Somewhat off-the-wall candidate would be
the A-129 Mangusta, which unlike the other candidates you note (other than
the H-76, to some extent) already has a well developed armament and sensor
suite. The Tiger is a no-show; probably more expensive than the other
candidates, and with a lot of political baggage to overcome.


2) Light Utility Helicopter (303 to be bought)

I know the Bell 412 has been mentioned.

Might the Marine Corps UH-1Y also be a candidate? (Is this Huey II?)

I doubt the UH-1Y could be a candidate. They are dependent upon having the
requisite airframes available for modification, and the Army Hueys were
quite different from the twin-engine USMC variants. Huey II is another
aircraft modification program, much less dramatic than the UH-1Y program.
The II retained the same rotor and mast system, with new engine/transmission
and revised tail rotor and stabilizer, and I would assume some "glass
cockpit" work, along with the more streamlined nose of the 412 series. I
think the Army would just as soon get completely away from the old
cumbersome rotor system and have rigid rotor mounts across its entire fleet,
so I would bet the 412 has the edge. One possible caveat to my first comment
on the -1Y--if there were enough old USAF UH-1N's at DM and they could be
modified to the same standard as the -1Y, then that could possibly make it a
viable alternative.


3) C-XX Intra-Theater Lift (25 to be bought)

Presumably C-27J is the frontrunner. What other options are there?

Realistically, just the CN-295. Odds are the C-27J gets that one; some
commonality with the C-130J family is a plus, and the folks at NGB (or at
least NGAUS) have already expressed some interest in it in the past. ISTR
that the cargo space geometry in the Spartan is a bit better than the CN-295
as well.

Brooks



--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

Thomas Schoene wrote:

I just wanted to start a new thread specifically to look at the new aircraft
the Army is talking about buying instead of the Comanche, and see what
options there are available. As I read the briefings, there are basically
three new manned platforms. I doubt there is funding for new designs in any
of these roles. While it is really premature to say too much, with no
actual performance requirements set, I'm curious what options folks see for
each.

1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to be bought).

Could this be a Sikorsky H-76?

The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an option?

Probably not. I'd think an MD-5xx could be in the running, if they go OTS.

2) Light Utility Helicopter (303 to be bought)

I know the Bell 412 has been mentioned.

AB-139, Bell 430, maybe something from EC (Suuurre). Also the S-76, or the 430
for the recon mission. Kind of depends just where they draw the line at
"Light".


Might the Marine Corps UH-1Y also be a candidate? (Is this Huey II?)

3) C-XX Intra-Theater Lift (25 to be bought)

Presumably C-27J is the frontrunner. What other options are there?

CASA C-295. Unlikely, given the C-27J's engine/cockpit commonality with the
C-130J. The C-295 is smaller, slower and less powerful, but cheaper.

Guy

Guy Alcala wrote:
Thomas Schoene wrote:

I just wanted to start a new thread specifically
to look at the new aircraft
the Army is talking about buying instead of
the Comanche, and see what
options there are available. As I read the
briefings, there are basically
three new manned platforms. I doubt there
is funding for new designs in any
of these roles. While it is really premature
to say too much, with no
actual performance requirements set, I'm curious
what options folks see for
each.

1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to
be bought).

Could this be a Sikorsky H-76?

The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter
role; is this an option?

Probably not. I'd think an MD-5xx could be
in the running, if they go OTS.

2) Light Utility Helicopter (303 to be bought)

I know the Bell 412 has been mentioned.

AB-139, Bell 430, maybe something from EC (Suuurre).
Also the S-76, or the 430
for the recon mission. Kind of depends just
where they draw the line at
"Light".


Might the Marine Corps UH-1Y also be a candidate?
(Is this Huey II?)

3) C-XX Intra-Theater Lift (25 to be bought)

Presumably C-27J is the frontrunner. What
other options are there?

CASA C-295. Unlikely, given the C-27J's engine/cockpit
commonality with the
C-130J. The C-295 is smaller, slower and less
powerful, but cheaper.

Guy

Problem with foreign-built aircraft or helos for the U.S. military: the
NIH syndrome. Congress will make sure the military buys American unless there
is no other option.

Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 05:58:14 GMT, Guy Alcala
wrote:

Thomas Schoene wrote:

I just wanted to start a new thread specifically to look at the new aircraft
the Army is talking about buying instead of the Comanche, and see what
options there are available. As I read the briefings, there are basically
three new manned platforms. I doubt there is funding for new designs in any
of these roles. While it is really premature to say too much, with no
actual performance requirements set, I'm curious what options folks see for
each.

1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to be bought).

Could this be a Sikorsky H-76?

The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an option?

Probably not. I'd think an MD-5xx could be in the running, if they go OTS.


Crank up the output of the MDH line and put out an MD 530FF/AH-6
variant (not a NOTAR) with improved recon gear and arm them with the
GAU-19 like they are using on SOA birds....the production means are
already there, the weapons are already there, the only thing lacking
is what extra electronics and sights you need and how to mount them,
and some sort of self-defense suite.

John Hairell )

"Matt Wiser" wrote in message
news:403e054f$1@bg2....

Guy Alcala wrote:
Thomas Schoene wrote:

I just wanted to start a new thread specifically
to look at the new aircraft
the Army is talking about buying instead of
the Comanche, and see what
options there are available. As I read the
briefings, there are basically
three new manned platforms. I doubt there
is funding for new designs in any
of these roles. While it is really premature
to say too much, with no
actual performance requirements set, I'm curious
what options folks see for
each.

1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to
be bought).

Could this be a Sikorsky H-76?

The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter
role; is this an option?

Probably not. I'd think an MD-5xx could be
in the running, if they go OTS.

2) Light Utility Helicopter (303 to be bought)

I know the Bell 412 has been mentioned.

AB-139, Bell 430, maybe something from EC (Suuurre).
Also the S-76, or the 430
for the recon mission. Kind of depends just
where they draw the line at
"Light".


Might the Marine Corps UH-1Y also be a candidate?
(Is this Huey II?)

3) C-XX Intra-Theater Lift (25 to be bought)

Presumably C-27J is the frontrunner. What
other options are there?

CASA C-295. Unlikely, given the C-27J's engine/cockpit
commonality with the
C-130J. The C-295 is smaller, slower and less
powerful, but cheaper.

Guy

Problem with foreign-built aircraft or helos for the U.S. military: the
NIH syndrome. Congress will make sure the military buys American unless
there
is no other option.

History does not support that allegation. How many HH-65 Dauphins does the
USCG operate? How many Falcon's does the USCG operate? How many A-109's do
they operate? How many Shorts C-23's does the ARNG operate? What is the
original source for both the T-6 and T-45 (and before you get all
wishy-washy on those two programs because they were actually manufactured
here in the US, realize that is the way many nations operate--most of the
NATO F-16's were build in Europe, F-16's are being bult in the ROK, and
Japan manufactured its F-15J's)? The only one of these programs that I can
see where there was really "no other option" was the C-23 buy.

Brooks

"John Hairell" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 05:58:14 GMT, Guy Alcala
wrote:

Thomas Schoene wrote:

I just wanted to start a new thread specifically to look at the new
aircraft
the Army is talking about buying instead of the Comanche, and see what
options there are available. As I read the briefings, there are
basically
three new manned platforms. I doubt there is funding for new designs
in any
of these roles. While it is really premature to say too much, with no
actual performance requirements set, I'm curious what options folks see
for
each.

1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to be bought).

Could this be a Sikorsky H-76?

The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an
option?

Probably not. I'd think an MD-5xx could be in the running, if they go
OTS.


Crank up the output of the MDH line and put out an MD 530FF/AH-6
variant (not a NOTAR) with improved recon gear and arm them with the
GAU-19 like they are using on SOA birds....the production means are
already there, the weapons are already there, the only thing lacking
is what extra electronics and sights you need and how to mount them,
and some sort of self-defense suite.

I kind of discounted the value of already having the MH/AH-6 in service, but
for the light armed scout role you may have a pretty good point here. Given
that elimination of NOTAR, of course.

Brooks


John Hairell )

Assuming Comanche money really stays in Army Aviation (yeah, right), I'd expect
them to look for off-the-shelf twin-engined helicopters rather than fresh
starts.

The Agusta Westland A129 is a dedicated attack helicopter already integrated
with Comanche T800 engines, but I suspect the end cost of a Mongoose with US
systems would be up there with the Tiger. If they're going to go that route,
they should buy the damn Comanche.

It is possible for one helicopter to do both the light attack and light utility
missions. The question is how light is "light," and how much you want to go
offshore. If the Army doesn't care about the US industrial base (The Coast
Guard doesn't.), there are lots of foreign candidates.

Great as it is, I think the single-engined MD600/MH-6 Little Bird is too small
for a lot of Guard missions. In addition to RAID anti-drug patrols, the guard
has to move emergency response teams, and it will probably need secondary
medevac capability - that means you need a good-sized cabin.

With that in mind, the MDHI MD900 would be a good light utility helicopter, and
one made largely in the US (albeit by a Dutch-owned company). NOTAR works
fine; it just wasn't right for the 160th.

The Bell 427 is a possibility, but it's uncomfortably close to the OH-58D and
probably too light and confining for the Guard requirement.

The Agusta-Westland navel Super Lynx is already powered by Comanche T800s, and
a Battlefield Lynx derivative with those engines and a domestic equipment suite
could fill the bill.

The A109 is used for attack and utility missions, but a re-engined version
again seems expensive for what you'd get.

LTV once offered a T800-powered Dauphin as the Panther. That would give you a
pretty expensive French helicopter that could probably do the job. But, again,
it's French.

Sikorsky pitched an AUH-76 long ago and got nowhere. I suspect the Army would
like something smaller, more crashworthy and cheaper to operate.

Likewise, the Bell 412 is old technology and brings with it high operating
costs for what you'd get.

The Agusta Bell AB139 and Bell UH-1Y I think are just too big and too close to
the Black Hawk. I don't think there would be much incentive to buy either one.


So, my choice would be the MD900, at least for the light utility requirement.
You could hang the Little Bird weapons on it to make do with an armed scout of
sorts.

Bear in mind, the Comanche started out filling these same requirements with two
versions. Look at how well the Army handled that.

Frank

"ROTORFRANK" wrote in message
...
Assuming Comanche money really stays in Army Aviation (yeah, right), I'd
expect
them to look for off-the-shelf twin-engined helicopters rather than fresh
starts.

"Yeah, right"? The DoD and president have already signed off on the Army's
plan to reorient the money already budgeted towards Comanche to other Army
aviation needs, haven't they?


The Agusta Westland A129 is a dedicated attack helicopter already
integrated
with Comanche T800 engines, but I suspect the end cost of a Mongoose with
US
systems would be up there with the Tiger. If they're going to go that
route,
they should buy the damn Comanche.

No way it would even approach the cost of Comanche. The weapons suite
already handles US ordnance (Hellfire, TOW 2, and Hydra 70), and some of the
systems are already of US origin (including Honeywell FLIR and helmet
mounted sighting system).


It is possible for one helicopter to do both the light attack and light
utility
missions. The question is how light is "light," and how much you want to
go
offshore. If the Army doesn't care about the US industrial base (The
Coast
Guard doesn't.), there are lots of foreign candidates.

Great as it is, I think the single-engined MD600/MH-6 Little Bird is too
small
for a lot of Guard missions. In addition to RAID anti-drug patrols, the
guard
has to move emergency response teams, and it will probably need secondary
medevac capability - that means you need a good-sized cabin.

Agreed. But I still think that purchasing two separate aircraft, one for the
OH role and one for the LUH role, would be the better option--it also allows
you to "spread the wealth" a bit.


With that in mind, the MDHI MD900 would be a good light utility
helicopter, and
one made largely in the US (albeit by a Dutch-owned company). NOTAR works
fine; it just wasn't right for the 160th.

The Bell 427 is a possibility, but it's uncomfortably close to the OH-58D
and
probably too light and confining for the Guard requirement.

The Agusta-Westland navel Super Lynx is already powered by Comanche
T800s, and
a Battlefield Lynx derivative with those engines and a domestic equipment
suite
could fill the bill.

The A109 is used for attack and utility missions, but a re-engined version
again seems expensive for what you'd get.

LTV once offered a T800-powered Dauphin as the Panther. That would give
you a
pretty expensive French helicopter that could probably do the job. But,
again,
it's French.

Sikorsky pitched an AUH-76 long ago and got nowhere. I suspect the Army
would
like something smaller, more crashworthy and cheaper to operate.

Likewise, the Bell 412 is old technology and brings with it high operating
costs for what you'd get.

Compared to the UH-60? And compared to the aircraft it would replace (the
UH-1H) it is rather cutting edge--twin engine performance, rigid rotor
mount, etc.

Brooks


The Agusta Bell AB139 and Bell UH-1Y I think are just too big and too
close to
the Black Hawk. I don't think there would be much incentive to buy either
one.


So, my choice would be the MD900, at least for the light utility
requirement.
You could hang the Little Bird weapons on it to make do with an armed
scout of
sorts.

Bear in mind, the Comanche started out filling these same requirements
with two
versions. Look at how well the Army handled that.

Frank

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:33:37 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:


"Thomas Schoene" wrote in message
link.net...
I just wanted to start a new thread specifically to look at the new
aircraft
the Army is talking about buying instead of the Comanche, and see what
options there are available. As I read the briefings, there are basically
three new manned platforms. I doubt there is funding for new designs in
any
of these roles. While it is really premature to say too much, with no
actual performance requirements set, I'm curious what options folks see
for
each.

1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to be bought).

Could this be a Sikorsky H-76?

The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an
option?
USCG uses the French Daulphin, the attack version of it is called the
Panther. wich is more advanced design then the A-109 IMO, but it could
be an good idea to have a common airframe for multiple branches. But
you would have to update for todays use, with new/better engines etc.

I'd say both could be potential candidates, as could the MD 600 or 900
series (though the Army has in the past rather disliked the NOTAR concept,
having modified those MH-6's they had in that configuration back to
conventional tail rotor designs). Somewhat off-the-wall candidate would be
the A-129 Mangusta, which unlike the other candidates you note (other than
the H-76, to some extent) already has a well developed armament and sensor
suite. The Tiger is a no-show; probably more expensive than the other
candidates, and with a lot of political baggage to overcome.


2) Light Utility Helicopter (303 to be bought)

I know the Bell 412 has been mentioned.

Might the Marine Corps UH-1Y also be a candidate? (Is this Huey II?)

I doubt the UH-1Y could be a candidate. They are dependent upon having the
requisite airframes available for modification, and the Army Hueys were
quite different from the twin-engine USMC variants. Huey II is another
aircraft modification program, much less dramatic than the UH-1Y program.
The II retained the same rotor and mast system, with new engine/transmission
and revised tail rotor and stabilizer, and I would assume some "glass
cockpit" work, along with the more streamlined nose of the 412 series. I
think the Army would just as soon get completely away from the old
cumbersome rotor system and have rigid rotor mounts across its entire fleet,
so I would bet the 412 has the edge. One possible caveat to my first comment
on the -1Y--if there were enough old USAF UH-1N's at DM and they could be
modified to the same standard as the -1Y, then that could possibly make it a
viable alternative.


3) C-XX Intra-Theater Lift (25 to be bought)

Presumably C-27J is the frontrunner. What other options are there?

Realistically, just the CN-295. Odds are the C-27J gets that one; some
commonality with the C-130J family is a plus, and the folks at NGB (or at
least NGAUS) have already expressed some interest in it in the past. ISTR
that the cargo space geometry in the Spartan is a bit better than the CN-295
as well.

Brooks



--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)