A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Military Aviation
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

CIA Vietnam war controlled USAF aircraft missions



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old February 28th 04, 07:20 AM
Aerophotos
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default CIA Vietnam war controlled USAF aircraft missions

I have on good source from a knowledgeable aviation enthusiast, info
that in the late stages of the Vietnam war for some operations the CIA
controlled a limited amount of USAF assets, eg F-4 Phantoms and F-111s
Adavarks for attacks in Laos and Cambodia.

These aircrafts were painted overall black for night operations and
operated by only a pilot, no wso, due to CIA mission rules.

They were operated in Strike and Recon roles as i have been told. This
leading to a possible use of RF-4Cs i was told.
Time spent on the subject wasnt long so i wasnt able to get a confirm or
denial from the person.

The aircraft would depart their bases early in morning/late evenings and
no radio chatter was observed.

If they were shot down they were not given any chances to be rescued due
to the nature of their mission.

Anyone else ever heard of this operation before?

The person told me, not many people knew it even existed at the base the
planes flew from.... he didnt know which base/s the planes flew from...

What i was told... sounds like a unknown low key CIA/USAF secret
operation only known by a few people? eg never made public yet since the
war .. or could it be a fake story?

Since i dont know what the CIA would want from USAF aircraft in these
roles... it does make me wonder..

What was so sensitive in Laos and Cambodia that would require them there
?
Ads
  #2  
Old February 28th 04, 08:05 AM
Ron
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

have on good source from a knowledgeable aviation enthusiast, info
that in the late stages of the Vietnam war for some operations the CIA
controlled a limited amount of USAF assets, eg F-4 Phantoms and F-111s
Adavarks for attacks in Laos and Cambodia.

These aircrafts were painted overall black for night operations and
operated by only a pilot, no wso, due to CIA mission rules.


Those Vark pilots would have a heck of a time operating the weapons panel on
the right. Better have some really long right arms.

If you just read what you typed, you can see how silly it sounds.


Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)

  #3  
Old February 28th 04, 08:28 AM
Aerophotos
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Ron wrote:

have on good source from a knowledgeable aviation enthusiast, info
that in the late stages of the Vietnam war for some operations the CIA
controlled a limited amount of USAF assets, eg F-4 Phantoms and F-111s
Adavarks for attacks in Laos and Cambodia.

These aircrafts were painted overall black for night operations and
operated by only a pilot, no wso, due to CIA mission rules.


Those Vark pilots would have a heck of a time operating the weapons panel on
the right. Better have some really long right arms.

If you just read what you typed, you can see how silly it sounds.

Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)


Well the person who told me is adamant the CIA used the F-111 in the
role.

What other kind of aircraft could of been used if he is mistaken??

A-7D is the other i think... regardless he says to me F-111 were used ..
strike or recon who knows..?

CIA ran the program.... so its a mystery... much like they are run
anyway... dark, quiet and out of the way.
  #4  
Old February 28th 04, 08:50 AM
Ron
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Well the person who told me is adamant the CIA used the F-111 in the
role.

What other kind of aircraft could of been used if he is mistaken??

A-7D is the other i think... regardless he says to me F-111 were used ..
strike or recon who knows..?

CIA ran the program.... so its a mystery... much like they are run
anyway... dark, quiet and out of the way.


Well what about all the B-52 strikes in Laos and Cambodia? Probably all types
of aircraft crossed over the border for strike missions. Some that flew in
SEA here, would know a lot more about it. But black F-4s and F-111s, without
the WSO, well thats kinda far fatched.

There were extensive CIA ops in Laos and Cambodia, but they didnt do it by
taking weapon systems officers out of the aircraft.


Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)

  #5  
Old February 28th 04, 01:43 PM
BUFDRVR
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Those Vark pilots would have a heck of a time operating the weapons panel on
the right.


How about the Phantom pilot operating the *rear seat* equipment?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"
  #6  
Old February 28th 04, 02:13 PM
Yeff
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 28 Feb 2004 13:43:50 GMT, BUFDRVR wrote:

Those Vark pilots would have a heck of a time operating the weapons panel on
the right.


How about the Phantom pilot operating the *rear seat* equipment?


You know, if I wanted to covertly spy on someone's house, the first thing
I'd do is paint my car black. If I wanted to covertly hide out from the US
government I'd paint my house black. Apparently, if you're going to do
something covertly the first thing you do is paint everything black so no
one has any illusions that you aren't covert.

-Jeff B.
yeff at erols dot com
  #7  
Old February 28th 04, 02:55 PM
Smartace11
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Those Vark pilots would have a heck of a time operating the weapons panel on
the right.


How about the Phantom pilot operating the *rear seat* equipment?

In 1972, I flew night triple turn missions out of Tahkli - one sortie out of
Tahkli in Laos, N and S Vietnam recover at Danang, reload/rearm, do it again,
recover at Danang and do it again then go home. Occaisionally we recovered at
Udorn because it was closer than Danang when we were operating in nothern Laos
around the PDJ.

I saw an black F-4s once at Udorn taxi past the dearm area when I recovered
there one night. Couldn't tell how many crew members. Maybe not black but one
dark color all over - the camo paint scheme was visible at night in that
scenario once you got some night vision and had the fuselage belly lights on
for the weapoins guys to pin you back up. The F-4 could be operated by one
crewmember - the INS just had to be aligned before taxi. Dropping nukes was
about the only thing that supposedly couldn't be done alone though I guess one
could enable the PAL stuff on the ground before TO.

There were also rumors floating around of the existance of the black F-4s but
few had actually seen them. Never heard anything about F-111s though the
F-111As out of Nellis that replaced us could have flown that mission.

When we worked at night in Laos we were usually under the control of a Nightowl
FAC, an F-4 Fast FAC with Loran and plenty of flares. Once in a while we
worked with a Raven but I have no idea what type of aircraft, their usual O-1
or something else. Sometimes a Specter on the trails would control us. Very
few times, Moonbeam the ABCCC ship wold turn us over to the Combat Skyspot guys
to drop from their ground radar.

Working in Laos at night was spooky. Like flying inside an ink bottle as there
was just a campfire here and there and few if any other lights on the ground.
Little or no horizon under the haze. The FAC would lay down a "log" that
burned on the ground for a while and we would attempt to use it as an aiming
point. Hard enough to gage "100 meters north of my smoke" in the daytime but a
real trick at night.

Definitely enjoyed night flying as there was little or no adult supervision
around. Plus it was a helluva lot cooler. Doubtless, the missions were in
support of the Lima recon sites there and possibly the BMT TACAN though it had
been overrun when I was there..

Steve

  #8  
Old February 28th 04, 03:41 PM
Howard Berkowitz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Yhere certainly were covert military flights in Southeast Asia, but the
were not necessarily controlled by CIA. For the cases we know that were
controlled by CIA, such as Air America, there's no indication that the
crews were reduced.

Black aircraft aren't implausible for agent dropping and such, but these
would be most likely to be under the operational control of MACSOG.
Transports, of course, would be the likely aircraft in this role.

There were covert operations such as the bombing of Laos, or the weather
modification flights of Operation Popeye, but, while classified (perhaps
improperly), they were performed by the regular military chain of
command.

My reading of the Pentagon Papers suggests no combat aircraft were under
direct CIA control, although CIA operational people could certainly ask
for, and get support. Sedgwick Tourson's book on agent infiltration in
the north clearly speaks of the aircraft being military.
  #9  
Old February 28th 04, 04:40 PM
Aerophotos
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

bingo you are spot on see it has happened...everyhting you said below
reminds me of the story the guy told me, he said i rember now INS was
set but thats all that was needed...

Smartace11 wrote:

Those Vark pilots would have a heck of a time operating the weapons panel on
the right.


How about the Phantom pilot operating the *rear seat* equipment?

In 1972, I flew night triple turn missions out of Tahkli - one sortie out of
Tahkli in Laos, N and S Vietnam recover at Danang, reload/rearm, do it again,
recover at Danang and do it again then go home. Occaisionally we recovered at
Udorn because it was closer than Danang when we were operating in nothern Laos
around the PDJ.

I saw an black F-4s once at Udorn taxi past the dearm area when I recovered
there one night. Couldn't tell how many crew members. Maybe not black but one
dark color all over - the camo paint scheme was visible at night in that
scenario once you got some night vision and had the fuselage belly lights on
for the weapoins guys to pin you back up. The F-4 could be operated by one
crewmember - the INS just had to be aligned before taxi. Dropping nukes was
about the only thing that supposedly couldn't be done alone though I guess one
could enable the PAL stuff on the ground before TO.

There were also rumors floating around of the existance of the black F-4s but
few had actually seen them. Never heard anything about F-111s though the
F-111As out of Nellis that replaced us could have flown that mission.

When we worked at night in Laos we were usually under the control of a Nightowl
FAC, an F-4 Fast FAC with Loran and plenty of flares. Once in a while we
worked with a Raven but I have no idea what type of aircraft, their usual O-1
or something else. Sometimes a Specter on the trails would control us. Very
few times, Moonbeam the ABCCC ship wold turn us over to the Combat Skyspot guys
to drop from their ground radar.

Working in Laos at night was spooky. Like flying inside an ink bottle as there
was just a campfire here and there and few if any other lights on the ground.
Little or no horizon under the haze. The FAC would lay down a "log" that
burned on the ground for a while and we would attempt to use it as an aiming
point. Hard enough to gage "100 meters north of my smoke" in the daytime but a
real trick at night.

Definitely enjoyed night flying as there was little or no adult supervision
around. Plus it was a helluva lot cooler. Doubtless, the missions were in
support of the Lima recon sites there and possibly the BMT TACAN though it had
been overrun when I was there..

Steve

  #10  
Old February 28th 04, 05:15 PM
Smartace11
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I think it would be called under operational control by the military in support
of CIA ops.

Per a friend who flew A-26s early on and did a few drops of agents in the North
out of the bomb bay. His flight plan showed a slight delay in the arming area
with the bay doors open while a little guy in a black suit and chute climbed
into the bomb bay, then a place on the map were the doors were to be opened
enroute then closed, while over indian country.


Black aircraft aren't implausible for agent dropping and such, but these
would be most likely to be under the operational control of MACSOG.
Transports, of course, would be the likely aircraft in this role.

There were covert operations such as the bombing of Laos, or the weather
modification flights of Operation Popeye, but, while classified (perhaps
improperly), they were performed by the regular military chain of
command.

My reading of the Pentagon Papers suggests no combat aircraft were under
direct CIA control, although CIA operational people could certainly ask
for, and get support. Sedgwick Tourson's book on agent infiltration in
the north clearly speaks of the aircraft being military.


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Homebuilt Aircraft Frequently Asked Questions List (FAQ) Ron Wanttaja Home Built 40 October 3rd 08 03:13 PM
Homebuilt Aircraft Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) Ron Wanttaja Home Built 0 October 1st 04 02:31 PM
Homebuilt Aircraft Frequently Asked Questions List (FAQ) Ron Wanttaja Home Built 0 September 2nd 04 05:15 AM
Homebuilt Aircraft Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) Ron Wanttaja Home Built 0 June 2nd 04 07:17 AM
USAF = US Amphetamine Fools RT Military Aviation 104 September 25th 03 03:17 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2014 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.