I have problem. I correct the aileron the wrong way at takeoff

I concur with the other postings for windy day practice. It is a
great reflex builder.

You may also consider some training flight with an instructor doing
"un-assisted" takeoffs (no wing runner). It seems that this skill is
no longer part of the typical training syllabus, but is a good way to
get used to the control inputs required to steer the glider (feet/
rudder) and simultaneously pick up the wing dragging on the ground
with out over controlling. When you can complete this task in a
smooth coordinated manner, you should have no problems dealing with a
wing drop.

Hang in there! Wings drop The causes of a wing drop are many and most
are out of your control. Your focus should be on early recognition of
the problem and a timely and appropriate corrective action.
Todd

On Jan 19, 11:34*am, Todd wrote:
I concur with the other postings for windy day practice. *It is a
great reflex builder.

You may also consider some training flight with an instructor doing
"un-assisted" takeoffs *(no wing runner). *It seems that this skill is
no longer part of the typical training syllabus, but is a good way to
get used to the control inputs required to steer the glider (feet/
rudder) and simultaneously pick up the wing dragging on the ground
with out over controlling. *When you can complete this task in a
smooth coordinated manner, you should have no problems dealing with a
wing drop.

Hang in there! *Wings drop The causes of a wing drop are many and most
are out of your control. *Your focus should be on early recognition of
the problem and a timely and appropriate corrective action.
Todd

I'm a big fan of Condor but wing balancing isn't one of its strong
suites due to the limited peripheral vision afforded by a computer
monitor. Many "wing leveling" problems can be traced to students not
using their peripheral vision - tunnel vision tends to develop under
the stress of a takeoff roll.

In fact, PC flight simulators demonstrate just how hard it is to
control a glider without peripheral vision. You really need a 3-
monitor set up to use A PC flight simulator in a training environment.

Wing down 'no-wing runner' takeoffs are mostly a relic from 2-33's
with tip wheels and should be used sparingly. I'm not saying it's not
a skill to know but I question teaching it to a primary student
considering the glider types any new student can be expected to fly
these days. Wing down takeoffs should NEVER be used with a CG hook or
on a winch.

The "simulated" ground roll practice using a glider facing into the
wind allows logging hours of practice doing something you pass through
in seconds on a real flight. I'm thinking a lot of broken fiberglass
could be avoided if all of us would spend an hour doing this each
spring.

Bill Daniels

bildan wrote:

I'm a big fan of Condor but wing balancing isn't one of its strong
suites due to the limited peripheral vision afforded by a computer
monitor. Many "wing leveling" problems can be traced to students not
using their peripheral vision - tunnel vision tends to develop under
the stress of a takeoff roll.

Fair enough. Though the horizon in Condor is a darn good indicator (I
just checked with mine) and you *will* know it if your wings aren't
level and likely be punished (possible ground loop, not staying behind
the towplane, etc). Seems to me that after a few hours on a sim one
will *not* have a problem with right vs left aileron. I'm not
suggesting that the horizon should always be used to check wings level
during ground roll-out. I am saying that a sim like Condor *will*
solidly teach you left-stick from right-stick.


In fact, PC flight simulators demonstrate just how hard it is to
control a glider without peripheral vision. You really need a 3-
monitor set up to use A PC flight simulator in a training environment.

I have to disagree. While 3 monitors would be nice a TrackIR device
works marvelously. Even the coolie hat switch isn't that bad, but for
serious work like coring thermals the TrackIR is the way to go.


Wing down 'no-wing runner' takeoffs are mostly a relic from 2-33's
with tip wheels and should be used sparingly. I'm not saying it's not
a skill to know but I question teaching it to a primary student
considering the glider types any new student can be expected to fly
these days. Wing down takeoffs should NEVER be used with a CG hook or
on a winch.

Who suggested 'no-wing runner'? Not I. Condor runs your wing for you.


The "simulated" ground roll practice using a glider facing into the
wind allows logging hours of practice doing something you pass through
in seconds on a real flight. I'm thinking a lot of broken fiberglass
could be avoided if all of us would spend an hour doing this each
spring.

Agreed. If you have all that readily available it seems like a fine way
to go.

I am just suggesting a simulator as a possible alternative if using that
is more convenient.

Living in Michigan it is common to not fly anything (real) from October
through April. I once had to take my flight review as my very first
flights after a long winter layover. I was complemented on how well I
kept the turns crisp and coordinated. I attributed that to "staying
current" using Condor.

I would also strongly recommend that a sim be used with rudder pedals. I
think it is a bad idea to get in the habit of using the stick without
your feet pressing the pedals properly.

Will the "simulated" ground roll practice using a glider facing into the
wind teach proper use of the rudder? Condor will.

Regards,

-Doug

On Jan 19, 2:56*pm, Doug Hoffman wrote:
bildan wrote:
I'm a big fan of Condor but wing balancing isn't one of its strong
suites due to the limited peripheral vision afforded by a computer
monitor. *Many "wing leveling" problems can be traced to students not
using their peripheral vision - tunnel vision tends to develop under
the stress of a takeoff roll.

Fair enough. *Though the horizon in Condor is a darn good indicator (I
just checked with mine) and you *will* know it if your wings aren't
level and likely be punished (possible ground loop, not staying behind
the towplane, etc). *Seems to me that after a few hours on a sim one
will *not* have a problem with right vs left aileron. *I'm not
suggesting that the horizon should always be used to check wings level
during ground roll-out. I am saying that a sim like Condor *will*
solidly teach you left-stick from right-stick.

In fact, PC flight simulators demonstrate just how hard it is to
control a glider without peripheral vision. *You really need a 3-
monitor set up to use A PC flight simulator in a training environment.

I have to disagree. While 3 monitors would be nice a TrackIR device
works marvelously. *Even the coolie hat switch isn't that bad, but for
serious work like coring thermals the TrackIR is the way to go.

Wing down 'no-wing runner' takeoffs are mostly a relic from 2-33's
with tip wheels and should be used sparingly. *I'm not saying it's not
a skill to know but I question teaching it to a primary student
considering the glider types any new student can be expected to fly
these days. *Wing down takeoffs should NEVER be used with a CG hook or
on a winch.

Who suggested 'no-wing runner'? *Not I. *Condor runs your wing for you.

The "simulated" ground roll practice using a glider facing into the
wind allows logging hours of practice doing something you pass through
in seconds on a real flight. *I'm thinking a lot of broken fiberglass
could be avoided if all of us would spend an hour doing this each
spring.

Agreed. If you have all that readily available it seems like a fine way
to go.

I am just suggesting a simulator as a possible alternative if using that
is more convenient.

Living in Michigan it is common to not fly anything (real) from October
through April. I once had to take my flight review as my very first
flights after a long winter layover. *I was complemented on how well I
kept the turns crisp and coordinated. *I attributed that to "staying
current" using Condor.

I would also strongly recommend that a sim be used with rudder pedals. I
think it is a bad idea to get in the habit of using the stick without
your feet pressing the pedals properly.

Will the "simulated" ground roll practice using a glider facing into the
wind teach proper use of the rudder? *Condor will.

Regards,

-Doug

I'm not really arguing here - I like Condor and would like to see it
more widely used. Although, without a really good setup with rudder
pedals, it's somewhat limited. I tend to use it as an "animated
whiteboard" to illustrate a maneuver.

However, if you create a complete cockpit setup, Condor is a VERY
effective training tool.

BTW, Condor is also VERY good at creating flight training
illustrations with its jpeg screen capture feature. Any photo editor
can add text and graphics to the image. I wrote a highly illustrated
winch training syllabus with this technique.

Don't discount the peripheral vision thing. Track IR effectively
simulates swiveling your head which isn't the same thing as peripheral
vision. A pilot need to get visual information from the sides while
looking straight ahead.

Three monitors is a much better experience than Track IR - though more
expensive. I've seen some curved ultra-wide monitors that would
provide nearly 180 degree field of vision - ultra expensive but very
cool.

bildan wrote:


I'm not really arguing here - I like Condor and would like to see it
more widely used.

Sorry, I didn't mean to argue.

Although, without a really good setup with rudder
pedals, it's somewhat limited.

Yes. I would say that flying a sim without rudder pedals will teach
dangerous habits.

I tend to use it as an "animated
whiteboard" to illustrate a maneuver.

However, if you create a complete cockpit setup, Condor is a VERY
effective training tool.

BTW, Condor is also VERY good at creating flight training
illustrations with its jpeg screen capture feature. Any photo editor
can add text and graphics to the image. I wrote a highly illustrated
winch training syllabus with this technique.

I believe there is also a way to create mini videos in various formats.


Don't discount the peripheral vision thing. Track IR effectively
simulates swiveling your head which isn't the same thing as peripheral
vision. A pilot need to get visual information from the sides while
looking straight ahead.

I don't disagree. But how does one look straight up with 3 screens and
no TrackIR? TrackIR allows one to easily, naturally "look up". Helps
when trying to see where you are relative to a cu or if in a gaggle what
is above you.


Three monitors is a much better experience than Track IR - though more
expensive. I've seen some curved ultra-wide monitors that would
provide nearly 180 degree field of vision - ultra expensive but very
cool.

Yeah. I've seen some very elaborate setups for sims.

My wife still looks at me funny while in my study wearing a baseball cap
and the infrared reflectors. :-)

Regards,

-Doug

On Jan 19, 12:56*pm, bildan wrote:
*Wing down takeoffs should NEVER be used with a CG hook

Why not? Works just fine for unassisted aero retrieve with my stick
on wing tip wheel. Would I prefer to have a wing runner - sure, but
NEVER is far too strong a prohibition.

Andy

Andy wrote:
On Jan 19, 12:56 pm, bildan wrote:
Wing down takeoffs should NEVER be used with a CG hook

Why not? Works just fine for unassisted aero retrieve with my stick
on wing tip wheel. Would I prefer to have a wing runner - sure, but
NEVER is far too strong a prohibition.

Agreed. I like the stick idea but I manage to need a GC hook unassisted
take off once or twice a year during an aero retrieve (LS-6). The trick
is to anticipate the wingtip drag and angle the glider slightly away
from the down tip. Grass needs more angle than pavement.

Tony V.

On Jan 19, 6:41*pm, TonyV wrote:
Andy wrote:
On Jan 19, 12:56 pm, bildan wrote:
*Wing down takeoffs should NEVER be used with a CG hook

Why not? *Works just fine for unassisted aero retrieve with my stick
on wing tip wheel. *Would I prefer to have a wing runner - sure, but
NEVER is far too strong a prohibition.

Agreed. I like the stick idea but I manage to need a GC hook unassisted
take off once or twice a year during an aero retrieve (LS-6). The trick
is to anticipate the wingtip drag and angle the glider slightly away
from the down tip. Grass needs more angle than pavement.

Tony V.

You guys can't believe how nasty a ground loop can be when a wing tip
catches and the glider is being pulled with he CG hook. A nose hook
will help keep you straight if a tip digs in. A CG hook will just
accelerate the ground loop. If it happens with enough speed (or power
in the case of a winch launch), you'll likely end up inverted - and
dead.

There's no way I'd attempt a takeoff without a wing runner using my CG
hook - wing stick or no. I stand by never - with emphasis!

Bill Daniels

On Jan 19, 6:58*pm, bildan wrote:

You guys can't believe how nasty a ground loop can be when a wing tip
catches and the glider is being pulled with he CG hook. *A nose hook
will help keep you straight if a tip digs in. *A CG hook will just
accelerate the ground loop. *If it happens with enough speed (or power
in the case of a winch launch), you'll likely end up inverted - and
dead.

I'd guess from your reply that your glider has both CG and nose
hooks. Many pilots have flown hundreds of aerotows without incident
despite the fact that their gliders only had CG hooks.

I had a few wing drop incidents with aerotow using a CG hook but those
were all when using a wing runner. Most I immediately released, one or
two I recovered and completed the takeoff. As a general rule I'll
release as soon as the wing drops.

At the start of an aerotow takeoff the probability of a high energy
ground loop is very low since the ground speed is low and the
acceleration is fairly low. The risk of a high energy ground loop is
later in the takeoff roll and is there whether a wing runner is used
or not. It is a very different situation for a winch launch.

The yaw restoring moment of the tow rope is directly related to the
distance from the main wheel, or from the CG once airborne. A typical
CG hook is forward of both the main gear and the CG, so the moment of
the tow rope is in the same sense as for a nose or belly hook and,
although smaller, is still stabilizing rather than destabilizing.
Given that, can you please explain why you believe a CG hook will
accelerate a ground loop.


Andy

On Jan 19, 11:56*am, bildan wrote:

The "simulated" ground roll practice using a glider facing into the
wind allows logging hours of practice doing something you pass through
in seconds on a real flight. *I'm thinking a lot of broken fiberglass
could be avoided if all of us would spend an hour doing this each
spring.

I do this regularly when I am on the runway when waiting for a tow -
it's great practice to see how low you can get the wing and pick it up
again.

This may be more for the advanced course, but you should keep in mind
that full aileron away from a dropping wing may not always be the
right answer, depending on the angle of attack for the wing with the
tailwheel on the ground as well as airspeed, wind speed and direction
and the overall configuration of the glider. I have on occasion been
able to pick up a falling wing by relaxing the opposite aileron. The
reason is that a drooped aileron increases the angle of attack of the
wing, potentailly making the difference between being stalled and
unstalled. Avoiding tip stalls is why many flapped gliders have the
ailerons go negative with full flaps and why negative flaps is
normally advised for the start of the takeoff roll.

I don't like the idea of doing a wing dragging takeoff with a cg hook
if I can avoid it, but will consider giving it a shot on something
like a remote aero retreive if I've got reasonable wind down the
runway and other factors aren't adverse. If you don't get the wing up
by '3-Mississippi' you need to pull the release. The only times I've
gone in the weeds were when I had wing runners who didn't know what
they were doing in a crosswind. By the time I realized the wing was
going down and pulled the plug I was going too fast to avoid an off-
runway adventure. I'm not sure that a bad wing runner is a better
situation than a wing-down takeoff - at least in the latter case you
aren't taken by surprise.