Anyone have experience with InterAv alternator

We have one in our Glasair and I have never been really impressed
with it's output. Seems to run around 13.1 volts most of the time
except for
right after engine start. The ammeter does indicate a net flow of
current INTO the battery. That might seem all right but when I start
putting some
serious loads on the system (nav lights, landing light, etc) the
voltage
drops to 12.8 or so and the low voltage light starts to glow.
The way the voltage regulator is wired to the alternator is a
little "different" than conventional. Instead of the voltage sense
terminal of the regulator being connected directly to the B+ terminal
of the alternator and thereby also electrically to the aircraft bus
bar and battery, it is connected to a separate "reg" terminal of the
alternator, which is fed by a diode trio parallelling the three
positive-conducting diodes from the 3-phase stator going to the output
(B+) terminal of the alternator. These diodes have the effect of
isolating this regulator terminal from the aircraft bus. Why would you
want to isolate the regulator from the load that it is supposed to
regulate? The voltage at that terminal is also quite a bit higher
than at the B+ output terminal. It seems to be about 15.8 volts.
That is the voltage that the regulator reads and tries to hold.
A resistor does connect across from the B+
terminal of the alternator to the "reg" terminal, probably to bleed
some small voltage before the alternator starts spinning (it is about
1 volt) to the regulator to provide a small
amount of initial field current to bootstrap the alternator into
providing voltage when first starting. I notice that with the battery
master
turned on but the engine not running, the resistor gets hot. Probably
due to
the 10 volt or so drop across it. When the alternator gets running,
the drop
should only be a couple of volts and it should run cool, I imagine, no
way to
put my hand there while the engine is running.
But, why don't they just connect the voltage regulator to the B+
terminal and program it for 13.8-14.2 volts? Don't you want to sense
the voltage at the battery
and the aircraft bus, not some isolated output voltage of the
alternator? What if I just connected the regulator to the B+ ? I
tried it.
I disconnected the regulator from the regulator terminal at the
alternator and connected it directly to the battery.
Since the battery/bus will read much lower than the 15.8 volts the
regulator
expects to see, it will try to increase the field current until the
bus voltage
builds up to 15.8. At least, that is what I expected. I started up
the engine and briefly saw the bus voltage climb over 15 volts and
then the OverVoltage relay activated, disconnecting the field circuit
from
the alternator just like it is supposed to. So, you cannot connect
the regulator as is to the battery/bus and have it work properly,
since the
set point is set at around 15.8 volts or so it seems. Way to high for
normal operation.
Could I use some sort of voltage divider between the regulator
terminal at the alternator and the connection at the voltage regulator
to pad down the input to the regulator to fool it and get it to supply
enough field current to get that padded down voltage up to the 15.8
that it is programmed to do and thereby raise the battery/bus voltage
with it to around 14.2 volts from the 13.1 or so that it now is? If
so, then the divider could be adjustable and make the non-adjustable
InterAv regulator adjustable. Any thoughts about all this?

Can you draw a rough schematic of what you have and anotate estimated
wire guages/lengths? Include connectors if you know of them. If
nothing else it will force you to have a clear image of what you have.
If we get a few pairs of eyes on this the problem my pop up.

Also, your battery voltage meter, does it have its own wire back to
the battery or is it piggy backing on the supply for some other load
to save having to run a wire?

Regards

(flyer) wrote in message . com...
We have one in our Glasair and I have never been really impressed
with it's output. Seems to run around 13.1 volts most of the time
except for
right after engine start. The ammeter does indicate a net flow of
current INTO the battery. That might seem all right but when I start
putting some
serious loads on the system (nav lights, landing light, etc) the
voltage
drops to 12.8 or so and the low voltage light starts to glow.
The way the voltage regulator is wired to the alternator is a
little "different" than conventional. Instead of the voltage sense
terminal of the regulator being connected directly to the B+ terminal
of the alternator and thereby also electrically to the aircraft bus
bar and battery, it is connected to a separate "reg" terminal of the
alternator, which is fed by a diode trio parallelling the three
positive-conducting diodes from the 3-phase stator going to the output
(B+) terminal of the alternator. These diodes have the effect of
isolating this regulator terminal from the aircraft bus. Why would you
want to isolate the regulator from the load that it is supposed to
regulate? The voltage at that terminal is also quite a bit higher
than at the B+ output terminal. It seems to be about 15.8 volts.
That is the voltage that the regulator reads and tries to hold.
A resistor does connect across from the B+
terminal of the alternator to the "reg" terminal, probably to bleed
some small voltage before the alternator starts spinning (it is about
1 volt) to the regulator to provide a small
amount of initial field current to bootstrap the alternator into
providing voltage when first starting. I notice that with the battery
master
turned on but the engine not running, the resistor gets hot. Probably
due to
the 10 volt or so drop across it. When the alternator gets running,
the drop
should only be a couple of volts and it should run cool, I imagine, no
way to
put my hand there while the engine is running.
But, why don't they just connect the voltage regulator to the B+
terminal and program it for 13.8-14.2 volts? Don't you want to sense
the voltage at the battery
and the aircraft bus, not some isolated output voltage of the
alternator? What if I just connected the regulator to the B+ ? I
tried it.
I disconnected the regulator from the regulator terminal at the
alternator and connected it directly to the battery.
Since the battery/bus will read much lower than the 15.8 volts the
regulator
expects to see, it will try to increase the field current until the
bus voltage
builds up to 15.8. At least, that is what I expected. I started up
the engine and briefly saw the bus voltage climb over 15 volts and
then the OverVoltage relay activated, disconnecting the field circuit
from
the alternator just like it is supposed to. So, you cannot connect
the regulator as is to the battery/bus and have it work properly,
since the
set point is set at around 15.8 volts or so it seems. Way to high for
normal operation.
Could I use some sort of voltage divider between the regulator
terminal at the alternator and the connection at the voltage regulator
to pad down the input to the regulator to fool it and get it to supply
enough field current to get that padded down voltage up to the 15.8
that it is programmed to do and thereby raise the battery/bus voltage
with it to around 14.2 volts from the 13.1 or so that it now is? If
so, then the divider could be adjustable and make the non-adjustable
InterAv regulator adjustable. Any thoughts about all this?

Schematic

xxxxxxx reg terminal xxxxxxx
x x---------------------------------x x
x x |75 x x
x x B+ output term to bat |ohm x x
x x--------------------------- x x
x x x x
x x field terminal x x
x x---------------------------------x x
x x x x
xxxxxxx-----gnd-------------------------xxxxxxx
ALTERNATOR REGULATOR

The regulator terminal of the alternator is fed by a diode trio
parallelling the three diodes feeding the output terminal.
Therefore, there is some isolation between the battery/aircraft bus
and the regulator terminal since the regulator
terminal cannot "see" the battery through the diodes except for
a 75 ohm resistor whose purpose I think is to bleed some voltage
over to the regulator terminal before the alternator gets spinning
to provide some initial field excitation current to get the ball
rolling.
When the engine is running, 15.8 volts appear at the regulator
terminal and this is held constant by the voltage regulator by
varing the field current to the rotor. However, only 13.2 volts
appears
at the alternator output terminal and on the aircraft bus.
About 1 volt appears at the regulator terminal when the
battery master switch is turned on before the engine is started.
I am thinking about lowering the value of the 75 ohm resistor to
allow the regulator to see more of the battery and bus load.
Maybe that will cause the regulator to drive the field harder to
hold 15.8 volts at the regulator terminal.
All our wires are of sufficient gauge and the lengths are minimum
required and the connectors are ring terminals, no corrosion, checked
and rechecked.
Drawing the schematic has not clarified my think about this situation.
I have been thinking about it for 15 years.


kayro (Jay) wrote in message . com...
Can you draw a rough schematic of what you have and anotate estimated
wire guages/lengths? Include connectors if you know of them. If
nothing else it will force you to have a clear image of what you have.
If we get a few pairs of eyes on this the problem my pop up.

Also, your battery voltage meter, does it have its own wire back to
the battery or is it piggy backing on the supply for some other load
to save having to run a wire?

Regards

(flyer) wrote in message . com...
We have one in our Glasair and I have never been really impressed
with it's output. Seems to run around 13.1 volts most of the time
except for
right after engine start. The ammeter does indicate a net flow of
current INTO the battery. That might seem all right but when I start
putting some
serious loads on the system (nav lights, landing light, etc) the
voltage
drops to 12.8 or so and the low voltage light starts to glow.
The way the voltage regulator is wired to the alternator is a
little "different" than conventional. Instead of the voltage sense
terminal of the regulator being connected directly to the B+ terminal
of the alternator and thereby also electrically to the aircraft bus
bar and battery, it is connected to a separate "reg" terminal of the
alternator, which is fed by a diode trio parallelling the three
positive-conducting diodes from the 3-phase stator going to the output
(B+) terminal of the alternator. These diodes have the effect of
isolating this regulator terminal from the aircraft bus. Why would you
want to isolate the regulator from the load that it is supposed to
regulate? The voltage at that terminal is also quite a bit higher
than at the B+ output terminal. It seems to be about 15.8 volts.
That is the voltage that the regulator reads and tries to hold.
A resistor does connect across from the B+
terminal of the alternator to the "reg" terminal, probably to bleed
some small voltage before the alternator starts spinning (it is about
1 volt) to the regulator to provide a small
amount of initial field current to bootstrap the alternator into
providing voltage when first starting. I notice that with the battery
master
turned on but the engine not running, the resistor gets hot. Probably
due to
the 10 volt or so drop across it. When the alternator gets running,
the drop
should only be a couple of volts and it should run cool, I imagine, no
way to
put my hand there while the engine is running.
But, why don't they just connect the voltage regulator to the B+
terminal and program it for 13.8-14.2 volts? Don't you want to sense
the voltage at the battery
and the aircraft bus, not some isolated output voltage of the
alternator? What if I just connected the regulator to the B+ ? I
tried it.
I disconnected the regulator from the regulator terminal at the
alternator and connected it directly to the battery.
Since the battery/bus will read much lower than the 15.8 volts the
regulator
expects to see, it will try to increase the field current until the
bus voltage
builds up to 15.8. At least, that is what I expected. I started up
the engine and briefly saw the bus voltage climb over 15 volts and
then the OverVoltage relay activated, disconnecting the field circuit
from
the alternator just like it is supposed to. So, you cannot connect
the regulator as is to the battery/bus and have it work properly,
since the
set point is set at around 15.8 volts or so it seems. Way to high for
normal operation.
Could I use some sort of voltage divider between the regulator
terminal at the alternator and the connection at the voltage regulator
to pad down the input to the regulator to fool it and get it to supply
enough field current to get that padded down voltage up to the 15.8
that it is programmed to do and thereby raise the battery/bus voltage
with it to around 14.2 volts from the 13.1 or so that it now is? If
so, then the divider could be adjustable and make the non-adjustable
InterAv regulator adjustable. Any thoughts about all this?

here is the schematic:
http://www.inter-av.com/WiringDiagram.htm

here is the schematic:
http://www.inter-av.com/WiringDiagram.htm

ben

Thanks Ben,

That site also has some great trouble-shooting suggestions:
"Low Buss Voltage can be caused by several things. Worn Brushes on
the Alternator. Poor Grounding . Abnormal resistance in the output
wire . Resistance in the aircrafts Field Circuit . Heavy electrical
loads - battery discharged- pitot heat - landing lights- storm scope
etc. can quickly add up to a 50 amp load . Alligator clip a wire
onto the output terminal of the Alternator and compare output voltage
to the voltage on the buss . They should be within .1-.2 volts
difference . If you are getting more there could be a problem on the
output wire. The Voltage Regulator is typically not the culprit in Low
Buss voltage. The vast majority of the time a Voltage Regulator would
fail completely and totally and not weaken . "

The other thing that came to mind was the possibility of single
shorted cell in your battery.

Regards

"Ben Stedman" wrote in message news:1066371638.368769@prawn...
here is the schematic:
http://www.inter-av.com/WiringDiagram.htm

ben

Since you have an Experimental" aircraft you can install any regulator
you want. You do not have to use the InterAv regulator. There are
many different regulators that will drive this alternator. From the
InterAv web site it appears that this is a grounded field alternator
so any regulator that outputs a positive field drive will work. Among
these are the mid 70"s Ford car regulators and at least one of the
Zifftronics regulators. For good temperature tracking the regulator
should be mounted near the battery.

Many European cars use the AUX diode trio to drive the regulator.
What this does for you is you do not have any field current drain
while the alternator is not running. The reason why the voltage at
the regulator (AUX) terminal is higher that the BAT terminal is the
large cap at the regulator acts as a peak detector and holds the peak
ripple voltage. I have only seen InterAv use this cap. I have yet
to see a production car use this monster sized cap.

The voltage at the battery should be 13.8 to 14.1 volts at 70F
degrees. (Twice this for a 24 volt system.) Aircraft batteries
sometimes have a slightly higher recommended charging voltage. The
voltage should rise as the temperature falls. There is a standard
linear curve for this.

At 50% to 100% of full output the AC ripple amps should not exceed 15%
of the DC output amps. If it does then you have a bad diode or stator
winding in the alternator.

If you apply full field to the alternator the alternator output will
try to rise to about 90 volts since the alternator tries to act as a
current source. You can think of the alternator as a rotary CURRENT
amplifier with a gain of about 25 for a 50 amp alternator. It is not
a good thing to disconnect the output of the alternator under load
since you can get a load dump transient of several hundred volts plus
a steady output voltage of +90 volts.
The alternator output circuit breaker should be rated at least 25%
more than the rating for the alternator. The circuit breaker is
designed to protect the WIRING not the alternator. Unless the breaker
is designed to break at least 100 volts "DC" then the breaker contacts
may weld closed when the breaker opens. Most alternators will put out
rated current plus 10% to 20% more when the windings are cold.
John


On 14 Oct 2003 14:57:17 -0700, (flyer) wrote:

We have one in our Glasair and I have never been really impressed
with it's output. Seems to run around 13.1 volts most of the time
except for
right after engine start. The ammeter does indicate a net flow of
current INTO the battery. That might seem all right but when I start
putting some
serious loads on the system (nav lights, landing light, etc) the
voltage
drops to 12.8 or so and the low voltage light starts to glow.
The way the voltage regulator is wired to the alternator is a
little "different" than conventional. Instead of the voltage sense
terminal of the regulator being connected directly to the B+ terminal
of the alternator and thereby also electrically to the aircraft bus
bar and battery, it is connected to a separate "reg" terminal of the
alternator, which is fed by a diode trio parallelling the three
positive-conducting diodes from the 3-phase stator going to the output
(B+) terminal of the alternator. These diodes have the effect of
isolating this regulator terminal from the aircraft bus. Why would you
want to isolate the regulator from the load that it is supposed to
regulate? The voltage at that terminal is also quite a bit higher
than at the B+ output terminal. It seems to be about 15.8 volts.
That is the voltage that the regulator reads and tries to hold.
A resistor does connect across from the B+
terminal of the alternator to the "reg" terminal, probably to bleed
some small voltage before the alternator starts spinning (it is about
1 volt) to the regulator to provide a small
amount of initial field current to bootstrap the alternator into
providing voltage when first starting. I notice that with the battery
master
turned on but the engine not running, the resistor gets hot. Probably
due to
the 10 volt or so drop across it. When the alternator gets running,
the drop
should only be a couple of volts and it should run cool, I imagine, no
way to
put my hand there while the engine is running.
But, why don't they just connect the voltage regulator to the B+
terminal and program it for 13.8-14.2 volts? Don't you want to sense
the voltage at the battery
and the aircraft bus, not some isolated output voltage of the
alternator? What if I just connected the regulator to the B+ ? I
tried it.
I disconnected the regulator from the regulator terminal at the
alternator and connected it directly to the battery.
Since the battery/bus will read much lower than the 15.8 volts the
regulator
expects to see, it will try to increase the field current until the
bus voltage
builds up to 15.8. At least, that is what I expected. I started up
the engine and briefly saw the bus voltage climb over 15 volts and
then the OverVoltage relay activated, disconnecting the field circuit
from
the alternator just like it is supposed to. So, you cannot connect
the regulator as is to the battery/bus and have it work properly,
since the
set point is set at around 15.8 volts or so it seems. Way to high for
normal operation.
Could I use some sort of voltage divider between the regulator
terminal at the alternator and the connection at the voltage regulator
to pad down the input to the regulator to fool it and get it to supply
enough field current to get that padded down voltage up to the 15.8
that it is programmed to do and thereby raise the battery/bus voltage
with it to around 14.2 volts from the 13.1 or so that it now is? If
so, then the divider could be adjustable and make the non-adjustable
InterAv regulator adjustable. Any thoughts about all this?