Motor glider

Are there any US clubs that are using two place motor gliders for basic
instruction?

On May 17, 11:00*pm, James C. Simmons
wrote:
Are there any US clubs that are using two place motor gliders for basic
instruction?

Doubtful, but would like to hear differently. Last time I checked it
first glider solos in self-launching gliders weren't insurable in the
US market.

A couple of clubs appear to have added LSA to their stables though.

Frank Whiteley

On May 18, 10:10*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On May 17, 11:00*pm, James C. Simmons

wrote:
Are there any US clubs that are using two place motor gliders for basic
instruction?

Doubtful, but would like to hear differently. *Last time I checked it
first glider solos in self-launching gliders weren't insurable in the
US market.

A couple of clubs appear to have added LSA to their stables though.

Frank Whiteley

I didn't read into the original post any idea of soloing in the
motorglider. I know that there are glider purists out there who think
that anything learned in a powered aircraft has no application to
gliding, and to them I say "BAH!"

It sure seems to me that something that can take off under its own
power would certainly speed the time to first solo, and decrease the
dollars to get there. But it doesn't have to be a motorglider. I
thought through my experience, and decided that while I like the C-150
for teaching, the best vehicle for starting out a glider pilot is a 65
hp Champ. It has a stick. It exhibits _serious_ adverse yaw, just
like a glider. It stalls power-off and recovers just like a glider,
it spins nicely, and with a little instructor help with the throttle,
it can be made to simulate many glider types pretty well. There's no
need for the student to worry about handling a taildragger on the
ground, but with the proper throttle setting, the approach and pattern
of a glider can easily be simulated. The throttle is on the cockpit
left side wall just like a glider. Just pretend that throttle is the
spoilers. A little high, close the throttle (pull it back, just like
spoilers). Still too high, slip it. The glider touchdown usually
taught is just like a wheel landing in the Champ. Keep your speed no
matter what, just like a glider. Have the student use the glider
checklist, and let the instructor worry about the differences in his
own checklist.

I'd think that anyone with reasonable aptitude could solo a glider in
a week, which would include about 6 hours of Champ time learning how
airplanes work (a glider is just an airplane with the engine turned
off or power reduced), followed by probably about 10 flights in the
target glider. It takes at least 3 flights to get the hang of
towing. Simulated rope breaks can be introduced quite nicely in a
Champ, just have the instructor reduce the power to the setting that
gives the performance of the target glider, then a couple in the
glider to polish technique. I've always wondered why it wasn't done
this way. It sure has worked out fine for me, although I had a bit
more than 5 Champ hours when I learned.

Ed
(smiling ear to ear because he completed the final leg of his Gold
Badge yesterday!)

On May 18, 2:31*pm, flying_monkey wrote:
On May 18, 10:10*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:

On May 17, 11:00*pm, James C. Simmons

wrote:
Are there any US clubs that are using two place motor gliders for basic
instruction?

Doubtful, but would like to hear differently. *Last time I checked it
first glider solos in self-launching gliders weren't insurable in the
US market.

A couple of clubs appear to have added LSA to their stables though.

Frank Whiteley

I didn't read into the original post any idea of soloing in the
motorglider. *I know that there are glider purists out there who think
that anything learned in a powered aircraft has no application to
gliding, and to them I say "BAH!"

It sure seems to me that something that can take off under its own
power would certainly speed the time to first solo, and decrease the
dollars to get there. *But it doesn't have to be a motorglider. *I
thought through my experience, and decided that while I like the C-150
for teaching, the best vehicle for starting out a glider pilot is a 65
hp Champ. *It has a stick. *It exhibits _serious_ adverse yaw, just
like a glider. *It stalls power-off and recovers just like a glider,
it spins nicely, and with a little instructor help with the throttle,
it can be made to simulate many glider types pretty well. *There's no
need for the student to worry about handling a taildragger on the
ground, but with the proper throttle setting, the approach and pattern
of a glider can easily be simulated. *The throttle is on the cockpit
left side wall just like a glider. *Just pretend that throttle is the
spoilers. *A little high, close the throttle (pull it back, just like
spoilers). *Still too high, slip it. *The glider touchdown usually
taught is just like a wheel landing in the Champ. *Keep your speed no
matter what, just like a glider. *Have the student use the glider
checklist, and let the instructor worry about the differences in his
own checklist.

I'd think that anyone with reasonable aptitude could solo a glider in
a week, which would include about 6 hours of Champ time learning how
airplanes work (a glider is just an airplane with the engine turned
off or power reduced), followed by probably about 10 flights in the
target glider. *It takes at least 3 flights to get the hang of
towing. *Simulated rope breaks can be introduced quite nicely in a
Champ, just have the instructor reduce the power to the setting that
gives the performance of the target glider, then a couple in the
glider to polish technique. *I've always wondered why it wasn't done
this way. *It sure has worked out fine for me, although I had a bit
more than 5 Champ hours when I learned.

Ed
(smiling ear to ear because he completed the final leg of his Gold
Badge yesterday!)

Well, certainly several clubs in the UK and other places have spoken
well of using motor gliders for field selection training prior to XC
flight, but I don't recall 'basic' instruction being discussed. Did
research the insurance matter about three years ago when a group near
Fall City, WA, hoped to base a club on a G103 III SL. Perhaps poster
Simmons will describe further the intended use.

Frank

Frank Whiteley wrote:

On May 18, 2:31*pm, flying_monkey wrote:
On May 18, 10:10*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:

On May 17, 11:00*pm, James C. Simmons

wrote:
Are there any US clubs that are using two place motor gliders for basic
instruction?

Doubtful, but would like to hear differently. *Last time I checked it
first glider solos in self-launching gliders weren't insurable in the
US market.

A couple of clubs appear to have added LSA to their stables though.

Frank Whiteley

I didn't read into the original post any idea of soloing in the
motorglider. *I know that there are glider purists out there who think
that anything learned in a powered aircraft has no application to
gliding, and to them I say "BAH!"

It sure seems to me that something that can take off under its own
power would certainly speed the time to first solo, and decrease the
dollars to get there. *But it doesn't have to be a motorglider. *I
thought through my experience, and decided that while I like the C-150
for teaching, the best vehicle for starting out a glider pilot is a 65
hp Champ. *It has a stick. *It exhibits _serious_ adverse yaw, just
like a glider. *It stalls power-off and recovers just like a glider,
it spins nicely, and with a little instructor help with the throttle,
it can be made to simulate many glider types pretty well. *There's no
need for the student to worry about handling a taildragger on the
ground, but with the proper throttle setting, the approach and pattern
of a glider can easily be simulated. *The throttle is on the cockpit
left side wall just like a glider. *Just pretend that throttle is the
spoilers. *A little high, close the throttle (pull it back, just like
spoilers). *Still too high, slip it. *The glider touchdown usually
taught is just like a wheel landing in the Champ. *Keep your speed no
matter what, just like a glider. *Have the student use the glider
checklist, and let the instructor worry about the differences in his
own checklist.

I'd think that anyone with reasonable aptitude could solo a glider in
a week, which would include about 6 hours of Champ time learning how
airplanes work (a glider is just an airplane with the engine turned
off or power reduced), followed by probably about 10 flights in the
target glider. *It takes at least 3 flights to get the hang of
towing. *Simulated rope breaks can be introduced quite nicely in a
Champ, just have the instructor reduce the power to the setting that
gives the performance of the target glider, then a couple in the
glider to polish technique. *I've always wondered why it wasn't done
this way. *It sure has worked out fine for me, although I had a bit
more than 5 Champ hours when I learned.

Ed
(smiling ear to ear because he completed the final leg of his Gold
Badge yesterday!)

Well, certainly several clubs in the UK and other places have spoken
well of using motor gliders for field selection training prior to XC
flight, but I don't recall 'basic' instruction being discussed. Did
research the insurance matter about three years ago when a group near
Fall City, WA, hoped to base a club on a G103 III SL. Perhaps poster
Simmons will describe further the intended use.

Frank

The RAFVR use Grob G109Bs (Ventures) to train cadets age 16 up to
solo, and several civilian organisations in UK use motorgliders to
train people upto and beyond PPL and NPPL licences.

Until some years ago, our club used to teach the first few lessons with
new students on TMGs (first a Falke, later a Grob 109). Finally we came
to the conlusion that this training was virtually useless for glider
pilot students because those TMGs handle so differently from "real"
gliders. Consequently we stopped all primary training on TMGs. We still
use them for simulated outlanding training with advanced students.

"True" self launching motorgliders are a different story. For a club
with no permanent tow pilot, a self launching two seater like a DG500M,
DG1000M or ASK21M may add flexibility to the scheduling of lessons.

On Mon, 18 May 2009 22:23:12 -0700, Frank Whiteley wrote:

Well, certainly several clubs in the UK and other places have spoken
well of using motor gliders for field selection training prior to XC
flight, but I don't recall 'basic' instruction being discussed.

My club uses an SF-25 for the three pre-XC training exercises - field
selection, field landing and navigation.

IIRC Derek Piggott has tried using a motor glider with ab initios for
basic handling and landing exercises and thought it a good idea. I can't
think of anybody else who has tried that in the UK.

I learnt on the winch and thought the short flights on less good days
were excellent landing practise. In consequence I would have done around
65 landings before I soloed - if I'd only done the 10-15 I've heard
bandied around on this thread I would have been quite nervous when I was
sent solo.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Tue, 19 May 2009 11:45:28 +0000, Martin Gregorie wrote:

IIRC Derek Piggott has tried using a motor glider with ab initios for
basic handling and landing exercises and thought it a good idea. I can't
think of anybody else who has tried that in the UK.

Cape Gliding Club in South Africa does this. We take ab initio pupils for
about 4 off 40 min lessons in the Rotax Falke before they move onto the
K7/K13 on the winch. It provides them with some air time to get used to
the handling and co-ordination of controls. If the ridge is working we
switch off the motor and soar. Otherwise we climb to altitude, switch off
the motor and let the a/c glide down to circuit hight then re-start and
climb up for a 2nd session.

Winch flights in non thermic weather provide very little time in the air.
In the early stages the instructor has to fly both the take off and the
landing. There is very little stick time left for the pupil to make
progress. The TMG helps gets the pupils through this phase so they can
start learning take offs and landings.

We also use the TMG for cross country field selection training, and pure
TMG training. Now we are going to use it as a secondary tug too.

Ian

On May 17, 7:00*pm, James C. Simmons
wrote:
Are there any US clubs that are using two place motor gliders for basic
instruction?

Not a club, but Acro International at Dillingham on Oahu does have a
Grob 109 and another MG they lease after appropriate training, if your
interested.
Rich

At 17:56 18 May 2009, wrote:
On May 17, 7:00=A0pm, James C. Simmons
wrote:
Are there any US clubs that are using two place motor gliders for
basic
instruction?

Not a club, but Acro International at Dillingham on Oahu does have a
Grob 109 and another MG they lease after appropriate training, if your
interested.
Rich

Can't be a British lord; the grammar is all wrong.