Alt.senile.artKramer

From: (BUFDRVR)
Date: 8/7/2004 12:00 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Of course you must see that those who say I have no knowledge of WW II are
those who never were in WW II.

Not really. Much of my knowledge on WWII comes from authors who were there or
interviewed participants at the Strategic, Tactical and operational levels.

They, as far as WW II goes, are just wannabees

Are you serious? I love the B-17 and I would like to think if I wasn't
-(minus)
27 years old at the out break of war that I would have gotten a chance to
pilot
one, but I'm far from a "wannabee". I wouldn't trade my experience for yours
or
any other. Perhaps that's a bit egotistical, but it's true.

Then of course it turns out that they are all Neocons. while I am a yellow
dog Democrat. See a connection?

I grew tired and disappointed with you long before you went on your political
tirade and exposed your political beliefs.


BUFDRVR


You could try telling Art that all war is local and those who are there have
only the vaguest idea what is going on much further than the eye can see. When
I was in combat in Viet Nam I could tell you exactly what I had experienced,
but had no idea about the rest of the war. The same goes for Art. He can tell
you what it's like to be a bombardier in B-26s, but he can't tell you what the
men who PUT him there did nor could he tell you what the poor slobs in the
infantry experienced.

He has no idea the maintainers who fixed and armed that B-26 pulled additional
duties he benefitted from like KP, trash, latrine details and how they felt
about it.

Even today most aircrews have no idea how many people put them in the air
besides the base ops, crew chiefs, weather guessers and the like. I can't tell
you how many aircrewmen believed the crewchiefs knew more about individual
systems than the specialists. Nor could I tell you how many times I couldn't
fix an aircraft because the pilot/nav/FE/load was too busy to explain his
writeups beyond "I told the crewchief." This is one of the reasons I loathed
most aircrewmen who became maintenance officers.

Just as a matter of curiosity are pilots ever taught what drives the indicators
they rely on? If they are they frequently forget. I loved it when they would
tell me the rate of turn pointer on the ADI doesn't work so I need to change
the ADI. It's driven by a gyro separate from the vertical gyro.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Subject: Alt.senile.artKramer
From: (B2431)
Date: 8/7/2004 1:19 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

ou could try telling Art that all war is local and those who are there have
only the vaguest idea what is going on much further than the eye can see.
When
I was in combat in Viet Nam I could tell you exactly what I had experienced,

I never wrote about anything but B-26's or anything other than bombing from a
B-26.


He has no idea the maintainers who fixed and armed that B-26 pulled
additional
duties he benefitted from like KP, trash, latrine details and how they felt
about it.

Our maintainers wwre all T/sgts an never pulled KP or latrine duty or even
guard duty but I pulled Officer of the Day and Officer of the Guard regularly
And if we never came back from a mission the crew chiefs would get a new plane
and crew in a heartbeat. And we would be only a memory soon to be forgotten.
And when the war ended these guys would live long and happy lives while we lay
buried in foriegn soil. War is not about gyros. It is about men who go out and
never come back as opposed to other men wo live their lives in relaitive
safety..And if you don't know the difference between them, you have never been
to war.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"ArtKramr" wrote

War is not about gyros. It is about men who go out and
never come back as opposed to other men wo live their lives in relaitive
safety..And if you don't know the difference between them, you have never been
to war.

You had battles, they had war, get it?

Do you make this **** up as you go along?

I know about 100's of support troops who fed the fishes after their boat was sunk.

War is about all of the men, women, and children involved in the war or battle.
The bomb loader is a war instrument, the cook is a war instrument, and I would
even call positions on a bomber crew a war instrument. A 12 year old kid who
throws a grenade into a tent with a bunch of nurses and doctors is a war
instrument. The Japanese thug who knifes an MP in the back to steal his watch
is a war instrument.

You are wrong. Admit it.

I never wrote about anything but B-26's or anything other than bombing from a
B-26.

IIRC, the B-26 was a deathtrap that killed more airmen in accidents
than in battle. Art raves on about it forever as if that aircraft
alone won the war which is garbage. And to make matters worse he
constantly talks about the bravery of the B-26 crews as if all the
other Allied airmen were ****, not to mention Luftwaffe pilots and
crews which kicked ass over anything Art or his crew ever did.


He has no idea the maintainers who fixed and armed that B-26 pulled
additional
duties he benefitted from like KP, trash, latrine details and how they felt
about it.

Our maintainers wwre all T/sgts an never pulled KP or latrine duty or even
guard duty but I pulled Officer of the Day and Officer of the Guard regularly
And if we never came back from a mission the crew chiefs would get a new plane
and crew in a heartbeat. And we would be only a memory soon to be forgotten.
And when the war ended these guys would live long and happy lives while we lay
buried in foriegn soil. War is not about gyros. It is about men who go out and
never come back as opposed to other men wo live their lives in relaitive
safety..And if you don't know the difference between them, you have never been
to war.

What utter BS! War is a team effort and those that survived deserve
just as much recognition and respect as those that perished. You call
yourself a Vet Art, what an asshole you are.You personally did not
build, arm, maintain, nor repair your B-26 or perform any other duties
that you benefitted from in the service.

Rob



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

p.s. Where can I buy a window sticker "I **** on Willie the Wolf"?

Subject: Alt.senile.artKramer
From: (robert arndt)
Date: 8/9/2004 3:51 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


p.s. Where can I buy a window sticker "I **** on Willie the Wolf"?


I think that statement tells us a lot more about you than about Willie. Guess
you are sad the Nazis lost. Right? Willie did his part in turning your
beloved Nazi Germany into a burning smoking smoldering mass of wreckage And so
did I and proud of every moment of it.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...
Subject: Alt.senile.artKramer
From: (robert arndt)
Date: 8/9/2004 3:51 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


p.s. Where can I buy a window sticker "I **** on Willie the Wolf"?


I think that statement tells us a lot more about you than about Willie. Guess
you are sad the Nazis lost. Right? Willie did his part in turning your
beloved Nazi Germany into a burning smoking smoldering mass of wreckage And so
did I and proud of every moment of it.

I put that statement there to see how you would respond, and yes, you
responded to the comment about the plane rather than about the two
paragraphs about your disservice to the OTHER airman who served in WW2
and those that are often forgottten who never saw battle but kept the
airmen comfortable and maintained their machines.
I honestly don't care about your plane or a sticker... but it just
goes to show what you value most since you talk of that machine like
it was a person. I pity your family and relatives who have to listen
to your "Wolf" stories in person day-after-day 24/7.
If WW2 is the only thing you've done in life that you admire you are
truly a shallow person. What did you do with the REST of your life
these past 60 years?

Rob

p.s. No, I am not sad the Nazis lost.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Yubject: Alt.senile.artKramer
From: (robert arndt)
Date: 8/9/2004 5:46 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote in message
...
Subject: Alt.senile.artKramer
From: (robert arndt)
Date: 8/9/2004 3:51 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:


p.s. Where can I buy a window sticker "I **** on Willie the Wolf"?


I think that statement tells us a lot more about you than about Willie.
Guess
you are sad the Nazis lost. Right? Willie did his part in turning your
beloved Nazi Germany into a burning smoking smoldering mass of wreckage
And so
did I and proud of every moment of it.

I put that statement there to see how you would respond, and yes, you
responded to the comment about the plane rather than about the two
paragraphs about your disservice to the OTHER airman who served in WW2
and those that are often forgottten who never saw battle but kept the
airmen comfortable and maintained their machines.
I honestly don't care about your plane or a sticker... but it just
goes to show what you value most since you talk of that machine like
it was a person. I pity your family and relatives who have to listen
to your "Wolf" stories in person day-after-day 24/7.
If WW2 is the only thing you've done in life that you admire you are
truly a shallow person. What did you do with the REST of your life
these past 60 years?

Rob

Senior Vice President Creative Supervisor J. Walter Thompson Inc. NY.20 years

Contributing Editor Modern Photography Magazine 10 years,

Want more loser?



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

robert arndt wrote:


IIRC, the B-26 was a deathtrap that killed more airmen in accidents
than in battle. Art raves on about it forever as if that aircraft
alone won the war which is garbage. And to make matters worse he
constantly talks about the bravery of the B-26 crews as if all the
other Allied airmen were ****, not to mention Luftwaffe pilots and
crews which kicked ass over anything Art or his crew ever did.

I think that when you experience stuff like what Art did
during the war you get a fondness for what got you through
it alive - be it an airplane, tank, ship. Or your friends!

You don't have to go to war to feel a certain closeness to
people or machines, but surviving a war should make that
closeness so much, well, closer. :-)
ANY team effort brings people closer toghether - with
each other and with their equipment.

What I'm saying is, whatever the merits of the B-26, real
or imagined, I can understand Art's feelings for it!

And as for Arts postings: I read his wartime stories with
great interest. We don't share all views, but so what?
And I have yet to catch hime with what I believe to be a lie.

Just my 2 cents
Asbjorn
--
To reach me by e-mail, please use _sheridan at babcon dot org_.

Subject: Alt.senile.artKramer
From: Do not answer
Date: 8/10/2004 2:12 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

robert arndt wrote:


IIRC, the B-26 was a deathtrap that killed more airmen in accidents
than in battle. Art raves on about it forever as if that aircraft
alone won the war which is garbage. And to make matters worse he
constantly talks about the bravery of the B-26 crews as if all the
other Allied airmen were ****, not to mention Luftwaffe pilots and
crews which kicked ass over anything Art or his crew ever did.

I think that when you experience stuff like what Art did
during the war you get a fondness for what got you through
it alive - be it an airplane, tank, ship. Or your friends!

You don't have to go to war to feel a certain closeness to
people or machines, but surviving a war should make that
closeness so much, well, closer. :-)
ANY team effort brings people closer toghether - with
each other and with their equipment.

What I'm saying is, whatever the merits of the B-26, real
or imagined, I can understand Art's feelings for it!

And as for Arts postings: I read his wartime stories with
great interest. We don't share all views, but so what?
And I have yet to catch hime with what I believe to be a lie.

Just my 2 cents
Asbjorn
--
To reach me by e-mail, please use _sheridan at babcon dot org_.



Thank you. It is nice to have all this work appreciated.


..


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Dan wrote:

You could try telling Art that all war is local and those who are there have
only the vaguest idea what is going on much further than the eye can see.

I tried that. I even fessed up that I was so busy flying and planning during
OIF that I have no idea what happened in that conflict. He ignored the post,
which is Kramer's SOP.

Even today most aircrews have no idea how many people put them in the air
besides the base ops, crew chiefs, weather guessers and the like. I can't
tell

If by most you mean 51%, I'll agree, but if you mean more than that, I
disagree.

Just as a matter of curiosity are pilots ever taught what drives the
indicators
they rely on?

There is absolutely, no instruction on Forms, except reading them at any
training level that I've experienced. In fact, the idea of "just telling the
crew chief" is bred into pilots from (S)UPT. There is no maintenance debrief
during pilot training. If there is something wrong with the jet, the IP writes
it up (or the student if solo) and then hands the forms to the civilian
contractor crew chief on landing.The IP *may* provide a brief explanation, but
not always.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"