IFR simulators

[Tony]

Im looking to buy one of the Elite or ON TOP IFR simulators. If I wanted
to just buy the software and not the full stack could I still log the 10
hours toward my Instrument rating. Or would I be able to buy the
avionics stack the peddles and yoke off EBAY, and still get the logable
10 hours. Or do I have to buy the packages form AVstore or King. Does
anyone have these. Please tell me how you like them and are they worth
the money. I was also going to charge to let people that come from the
local FBO (make a few bucks back). Anything would help.

Thanks Tony

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[BTIZ]

> Im looking to buy one of the Elite or ON TOP IFR simulators. If I wanted
> to just buy the software and not the full stack could I still log the 10
> hours toward my Instrument rating.

NO

Or would I be able to buy the
> avionics stack the peddles and yoke off EBAY, and still get the logable
> 10 hours. Or do I have to buy the packages form AVstore or King. Does
> anyone have these. Please tell me how you like them and are they worth
> the money. I was also going to charge to let people that come from the
> local FBO (make a few bucks back). Anything would help.
>
> Thanks Tony
>

I do not believe that a PC based IFR simulator as you described can be
counted towards the training.. CFR61.4 .. it must be approved by the
administrator.

And from the FAQ file on CFR61.4..
QUESTION: What is a PCATD?

ANSWER: The terms PCATD stands for a "Personal Computer-Based Aviation
Training Device." It is a personal computer-based simulation package that
consists of flight simulation software and hardware which has been
determined to meet requirements as approved by AFS-800 and outlined in
Advisory Circular (AC) No. 61-126, "Qualification and Approval of
Computer-Based Aviation Training Devices". This AC No. 61-126 establishes
acceptable criteria under which instrument aeronautical experience gained in
a PCATD may be credited toward an instrument rating.

QUESTION: What is the regulatory authority for the use of a PCATD?

ANSWER: Ref. §61.4(c); which states "The Administrator may approve a device
other than a flight simulator or flight training device for specific
purposes."

QUESTION: What is involved in gaining FAA's qualification and approval of a
PCATD?

ANSWER: A manufacturer who desires to gain qualification and approval of a
PCATD prepares and submits a PCATD Qualification Guide for the device
representing specific single-engine and/or multiengine airplane modules in
accordance with the guidance outlined in AC 61-126. This Qualification Guide
is evaluated by AFS-800 to determine its acceptability in meeting the
applicable parameters stated in the AC 61-126. If the PCATD is found to be
acceptable by the desk audit, an on-site evaluation of the device is
conducted. When the PCATD is found to meet the requirements of AC 61-126, a
letter is issued by AFS-800 that states the PCATD's qualification and
approval of replicating specific airplane modules. Any significant changes
made to the PCATD's software/hardware combinations or the addition of
airplane modules by the manufacturer requires submission of an updated
Qualification Guide that must be further evaluated and approved by AFS-800.

[John Roncallo]

BTIZ wrote:

>>Im looking to buy one of the Elite or ON TOP IFR simulators. If I wanted
>>to just buy the software and not the full stack could I still log the 10
>>hours toward my Instrument rating.
>
>
> NO
>
> Or would I be able to buy the
>
>>avionics stack the peddles and yoke off EBAY, and still get the logable
>>10 hours. Or do I have to buy the packages form AVstore or King. Does
>>anyone have these. Please tell me how you like them and are they worth
>>the money. I was also going to charge to let people that come from the
>>local FBO (make a few bucks back). Anything would help.
>>
>> Thanks Tony
>>
>
>
> I do not believe that a PC based IFR simulator as you described can be
> counted towards the training.. CFR61.4 .. it must be approved by the
> administrator.
>

<snip>

The Elite flight simulator can be configured as a PCATD and is approved
by the FAA. I dont belive you need the avionics stack or pedals but you
will need dual monitors. I highly recommend the Pro-trainer package with
the instument book, ATC senarios and CH USB flight yoke. It also comes
with pedals which I found to be useless even for multi training. I also
recomend you get a 128 Meg dual monitor nVidia graphics card and at
least 1 19" monitor. I use a 17" but bigger would be better.

J. Roncallo

[BTIZ]

it would be cheaper to get a package deal with the local FBO for 10hrs on
his FRASCA or ATC610 simulator..

I know a local CFII who found an older ATC4xx series.. and keeps it in his
coat closet for his student teenage sons.. and a few others who use it for
currency..

bT

"John Roncallo" > wrote in message
m...
> BTIZ wrote:
>
> >>Im looking to buy one of the Elite or ON TOP IFR simulators. If I wanted
> >>to just buy the software and not the full stack could I still log the 10
> >>hours toward my Instrument rating.
> >
> >
> > NO
> >
> > Or would I be able to buy the
> >
> >>avionics stack the peddles and yoke off EBAY, and still get the logable
> >>10 hours. Or do I have to buy the packages form AVstore or King. Does
> >>anyone have these. Please tell me how you like them and are they worth
> >>the money. I was also going to charge to let people that come from the
> >>local FBO (make a few bucks back). Anything would help.
> >>
> >> Thanks Tony
> >>
> >
> >
> > I do not believe that a PC based IFR simulator as you described can be
> > counted towards the training.. CFR61.4 .. it must be approved by the
> > administrator.
> >
>
> <snip>
>
> The Elite flight simulator can be configured as a PCATD and is approved
> by the FAA. I dont belive you need the avionics stack or pedals but you
> will need dual monitors. I highly recommend the Pro-trainer package with
> the instument book, ATC senarios and CH USB flight yoke. It also comes
> with pedals which I found to be useless even for multi training. I also
> recomend you get a 128 Meg dual monitor nVidia graphics card and at
> least 1 19" monitor. I use a 17" but bigger would be better.
>
> J. Roncallo
>
>

[John Roncallo]

BTIZ wrote:
> it would be cheaper to get a package deal with the local FBO for 10hrs on
> his FRASCA or ATC610 simulator..
>
> I know a local CFII who found an older ATC4xx series.. and keeps it in his
> coat closet for his student teenage sons.. and a few others who use it for
> currency..
>
> bT
>

This is true it would be cheeper but then you wouldent have it when you
are done with your rating. When I purchased mine, I thought that I would
only have it until I got my rating. I have since found it to be so
usefull that I still have it and have continued to upgrade it regularly.
I dont fly much so before I go anywher new, I use it to shoot the
approaches at the airport I intend to fly to. It works great. and well
wortht the money.

John Roncallo

[Jack Cunniff]

Tony > writes:

>Im looking to buy one of the Elite or ON TOP IFR simulators. If I wanted
>to just buy the software and not the full stack could I still log the 10
>hours toward my Instrument rating. Or would I be able to buy the
>avionics stack the peddles and yoke off EBAY, and still get the logable
>10 hours. Or do I have to buy the packages form AVstore or King. Does
>anyone have these. Please tell me how you like them and are they worth
>the money. I was also going to charge to let people that come from the
>local FBO (make a few bucks back). Anything would help.

> Thanks Tony

Have a look at AC No: 61-126 - I saw it online at
http://www.avidaviator.com/adcir61.html, there was a link from their page
selling the OnTop ATD package.

It's worth mentioning that you can't get any loggable credit for flying a
simulator unless it's approved, AND unless you've got a CFII giving you
instruction. There was a line in that Advisory Circular stating that "the
FAA has not authorized the use of PCATD's for conducting practical tests
nor for accomplishing recency of experience requirements".

-Jack

[Maurice Givens]

Besides a CFI-I, you can get the tyraining from an IGI

Maurice Givens

Jack Cunniff > wrote in message >...
> Tony > writes:
>
> >Im looking to buy one of the Elite or ON TOP IFR simulators. If I wanted
> >to just buy the software and not the full stack could I still log the 10
> >hours toward my Instrument rating. Or would I be able to buy the
> >avionics stack the peddles and yoke off EBAY, and still get the logable
> >10 hours. Or do I have to buy the packages form AVstore or King. Does
> >anyone have these. Please tell me how you like them and are they worth
> >the money. I was also going to charge to let people that come from the
> >local FBO (make a few bucks back). Anything would help.
>
> > Thanks Tony
>
> Have a look at AC No: 61-126 - I saw it online at
> http://www.avidaviator.com/adcir61.html, there was a link from their page
> selling the OnTop ATD package.
>
> It's worth mentioning that you can't get any loggable credit for flying a
> simulator unless it's approved, AND unless you've got a CFII giving you
> instruction. There was a line in that Advisory Circular stating that "the
> FAA has not authorized the use of PCATD's for conducting practical tests
> nor for accomplishing recency of experience requirements".
>
> -Jack

[Tony]

If I were to buy one of the PCATD's what one would every one recommen???
ASA ONTOP or the ELITE, Jeppesen. Are there any I left out?

Thanks for your help and post Tony

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[Martin Kosina]

> If I were to buy one of the PCATD's what one would every one recommen???
> ASA ONTOP or the ELITE, Jeppesen. Are there any I left out?

It all comes down to money: if you want the radio console, the
Jeppesen package is by far the cheapest and more than adequate for
home use. The "basic" console is not great, but still order of
magnitude improvement over using the mouse. Its not just that its
inconvenient (mouse/keyboard), but I noticed the hardware controls
somehow encouraged much deeper immersion into the environment. There
are no excuses for performing poorly, because "its not realistic
anyway".

Elite is the best, but an all-hardware package will run at least
$2000, vs the ~$1000 for Jepp. But the Elite hardware will be much
better, no doubt about it. Software-wise, the old Jepp FS-200 was
crap, but the newer FlitePro version (I had 6.2, I think) was not bad,
smooth gauges, etc.

Finally, FlitePro is at most a high-perf single-engine sim, Elite used
to be the only multi-engine setup you could get, I believe.

Martin