slightly high aluminum in an IO-360

[Robert M. Gary]

I've had slightly high aluminum for the last year. I'm not happy about
it but everyone says its not high enough to spend real money pulling
cylinders or boroscoping. I'm curious what the group thinks...

IO-360-A3B6
SFNEW 682
At each 50 hours change I've had...
7, 10, 25, 13 (short sample), 24, 23 ppm

I don't think I have an alumimum dip stick (at least my A&P says I
don't). I'm not finding anything in the filter.

I'm in California so everything is pretty pricey. Should I spend a
grand or so having the cylinders boroscoped?

-Robert

[Kyle Boatright]

The cylinder bores are steel. You might pull all of your plugs (top and
bottom) and rotate the prop by hand so you can get a good look at the
pistons and part of the cylinder walls. Shining a flashlight through one
plug hole and looking through the other hole works pretty well.

The obvious place for aluminum is the pistons or the piston wrist pin caps,
and you cant see the caps without pulling the jug.

KB


"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
om...
> I've had slightly high aluminum for the last year. I'm not happy about
> it but everyone says its not high enough to spend real money pulling
> cylinders or boroscoping. I'm curious what the group thinks...
>
> IO-360-A3B6
> SFNEW 682
> At each 50 hours change I've had...
> 7, 10, 25, 13 (short sample), 24, 23 ppm
>
> I don't think I have an alumimum dip stick (at least my A&P says I
> don't). I'm not finding anything in the filter.
>
> I'm in California so everything is pretty pricey. Should I spend a
> grand or so having the cylinders boroscoped?
>
> -Robert

[rip]

A grand or so? Borescoping is now considered a standard part of the
compression check for Continental engines, and I do it regularly on
every annual. Borescoping involves little more than pulling a spark plug
out of each cylinder, and shouldn't cost any $1000 or so! Unless you
have a piston disintegrating, borescoping won't tell you much in your
case, either.

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> I've had slightly high aluminum for the last year. I'm not happy about
> it but everyone says its not high enough to spend real money pulling
> cylinders or boroscoping. I'm curious what the group thinks...
>
> IO-360-A3B6
> SFNEW 682
> At each 50 hours change I've had...
> 7, 10, 25, 13 (short sample), 24, 23 ppm
>
> I don't think I have an alumimum dip stick (at least my A&P says I
> don't). I'm not finding anything in the filter.
>
> I'm in California so everything is pretty pricey. Should I spend a
> grand or so having the cylinders boroscoped?
>
> -Robert

[Rich]

I've had slightly high potassium, but instead of borescoping, my AME put
me on a diuretic.

Rich


Robert M. Gary wrote:
> I've had slightly high aluminum for the last year. I'm not happy about
> it but everyone says its not high enough to spend real money pulling
> cylinders or boroscoping. I'm curious what the group thinks...
>
>

[Bob Chilcoat]

You should stop peeing in your engine.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)

I don't have to like Bush and Cheney (Or Kerry, for that matter) to love
America

"Rich" > wrote in message
...
> I've had slightly high potassium, but instead of borescoping, my AME put
> me on a diuretic.
>
> Rich
>
>
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
> > I've had slightly high aluminum for the last year. I'm not happy about
> > it but everyone says its not high enough to spend real money pulling
> > cylinders or boroscoping. I'm curious what the group thinks...
> >
> >
>

[PaulaJay1]

In article >,
(Robert M. Gary) writes:

>IO-360-A3B6
>SFNEW 682
>At each 50 hours change I've had...
>7, 10, 25, 13 (short sample), 24, 23 ppm
>
>I don't think I have an alumimum dip stick (at least my A&P says I
>don't). I'm not finding anything in the filter.
>
>I'm in California so everything is pretty pricey. Should I spend a
>grand or so having the cylinders boroscoped?
>

Robert,
The IO360 in my Archer has about the same hours and the last three readings
have been 14, 10, 12 for the Al. Cleve Tech Center ( and my A&P) say that is
OK. Yours is a little higher but if the "experts" say OK the watchfull waiting
seems to be in order. The Troubleshooting Guide from Cleve Tech suggests less
than 10 and the sources can be from "Bushings, Some Bearings, Pistons, Turbo
Charger, Compressor Wheels". Seems to me (no expert) that the borscope would
not answer your question anyway.

LOL and keep watching.

Chuck

[Dan Thomas]

(PaulaJay1) wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> (Robert M. Gary) writes:
>
> >IO-360-A3B6
> >SFNEW 682
> >At each 50 hours change I've had...
> >7, 10, 25, 13 (short sample), 24, 23 ppm
> >
> >I don't think I have an alumimum dip stick (at least my A&P says I
> >don't). I'm not finding anything in the filter.
> >
> >I'm in California so everything is pretty pricey. Should I spend a
> >grand or so having the cylinders boroscoped?
> >
>
> Robert,
> The IO360 in my Archer has about the same hours and the last three readings
> have been 14, 10, 12 for the Al. Cleve Tech Center ( and my A&P) say that is
> OK. Yours is a little higher but if the "experts" say OK the watchfull waiting
> seems to be in order. The Troubleshooting Guide from Cleve Tech suggests less
> than 10 and the sources can be from "Bushings, Some Bearings, Pistons, Turbo
> Charger, Compressor Wheels". Seems to me (no expert) that the borscope would
> not answer your question anyway.
>
> LOL and keep watching.
>
> Chuck

There have been several ADs against the aluminum piston pin plugs in
Lycomings. Many mechanics are in the habit of ignoring ADs, and the
disintegrating plugs go on falling apart until the pin hits the
cylinder and grooves it. It might be wise to do an AD search to see
where your airplane might be behind.

Dan

[Robert M. Gary]

(PaulaJay1) wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> (Robert M. Gary) writes:
>
> >IO-360-A3B6
> >SFNEW 682
> >At each 50 hours change I've had...
> >7, 10, 25, 13 (short sample), 24, 23 ppm
> >
> >I don't think I have an alumimum dip stick (at least my A&P says I
> >don't). I'm not finding anything in the filter.
> >
> >I'm in California so everything is pretty pricey. Should I spend a
> >grand or so having the cylinders boroscoped?
> >
>
> Robert,
> The IO360 in my Archer has about the same hours and the last three readings
> have been 14, 10, 12 for the Al. Cleve Tech Center ( and my A&P) say that is
> OK. Yours is a little higher but if the "experts" say OK the watchfull waiting
> seems to be in order. The Troubleshooting Guide from Cleve Tech suggests less
> than 10 and the sources can be from "Bushings, Some Bearings, Pistons, Turbo
> Charger, Compressor Wheels". Seems to me (no expert) that the borscope would
> not answer your question anyway.

I just called Lycoming. To my surprise, they were very helpful to me
considering I bought the engine from them 8 years ago. They said to
check the oil screen. I didn't even know the IO-360 had a screen. They
said that if I found any metal in the filter or the screen that I
could send it to them. They said they could tell EXACTELY what part of
the engine was making it. Apparently different parts of the engine's
aluminum have different alloys. So the piston pins have a different
aluminum than the dip stick, etc. He also said there was no charge for
this.
I've checked the filter beofre and not found anything. However, I've
never checked the screen. I'm not sure if my IA is doing that during
annual or not.

-Robert

[G.R. Patterson III]

"Robert M. Gary" wrote:
>
> I've checked the filter beofre and not found anything. However, I've
> never checked the screen. I'm not sure if my IA is doing that during
> annual or not.

The screen should be checked every 50 tach hours. If the shop is changing the oil as
part of the annual, they almost certainly are checking the screen. If they aren't I
would wonder what else they're skipping.

George Patterson
I childproofed my house, but they *still* get in.

[Javier Henderson]

(Robert M. Gary) writes:

> (PaulaJay1) wrote in message >...
> > In article >,
> > (Robert M. Gary) writes:
> >
> > >IO-360-A3B6
> > >SFNEW 682
> > >At each 50 hours change I've had...
> > >7, 10, 25, 13 (short sample), 24, 23 ppm
> > >
> > >I don't think I have an alumimum dip stick (at least my A&P says I
> > >don't). I'm not finding anything in the filter.
> > >
> > >I'm in California so everything is pretty pricey. Should I spend a
> > >grand or so having the cylinders boroscoped?
> > >
> >
> > Robert,
> > The IO360 in my Archer has about the same hours and the last three readings
> > have been 14, 10, 12 for the Al. Cleve Tech Center ( and my A&P) say that is
> > OK. Yours is a little higher but if the "experts" say OK the watchfull waiting
> > seems to be in order. The Troubleshooting Guide from Cleve Tech suggests less
> > than 10 and the sources can be from "Bushings, Some Bearings, Pistons, Turbo
> > Charger, Compressor Wheels". Seems to me (no expert) that the borscope would
> > not answer your question anyway.
>
> I just called Lycoming. To my surprise, they were very helpful to me
> considering I bought the engine from them 8 years ago. They said to
> check the oil screen. I didn't even know the IO-360 had a screen. They
> said that if I found any metal in the filter or the screen that I
> could send it to them. They said they could tell EXACTELY what part of
> the engine was making it. Apparently different parts of the engine's
> aluminum have different alloys. So the piston pins have a different
> aluminum than the dip stick, etc. He also said there was no charge for
> this.
> I've checked the filter beofre and not found anything. However, I've
> never checked the screen. I'm not sure if my IA is doing that during
> annual or not.

What screen are they and you talking about, exactly? Are they under
the assumption that your engine does NOT have a spin-on oil filter?
Your last paragraph above suggests that your engine has a spin-on oil
filter.

There's also a screen inside the oil sump, but that's quite coarse.
If that screen is catching metal chunks, then your engine is self
destructing very rapidly.

-jav

[Robert M. Gary]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message >...
> "Robert M. Gary" wrote:
> >
> > I've checked the filter beofre and not found anything. However, I've
> > never checked the screen. I'm not sure if my IA is doing that during
> > annual or not.
>
> The screen should be checked every 50 tach hours. If the shop is changing the oil as
> part of the annual, they almost certainly are checking the screen. If they aren't I
> would wonder what else they're skipping.

I'm sure the shop is doing it but I do most of the oil changes myself
(except the one at annual). I'm not checking the screen. I'll have to
schedule some time with the A&P to have him show me how to do it. The
Lycoming guy said they've seen cases where a filter has come out clean
because there were so many chunks of big metal plugging up the screen.

-Robert

[[email protected]]

On 26 May 2004 09:50:15 -0700, (Robert M. Gary)
wrote:

>I just called Lycoming. To my surprise, they were very helpful to me
>considering I bought the engine from them 8 years ago. They said to
>check the oil screen. I didn't even know the IO-360 had a screen. They
>said that if I found any metal in the filter or the screen that I
>could send it to them. They said they could tell EXACTELY what part of
>the engine was making it. Apparently different parts of the engine's
>aluminum have different alloys. So the piston pins have a different
>aluminum than the dip stick, etc. He also said there was no charge for
>this.

FWIW, they've been doing this for a long time. Filter analysis useta
be required prior to any work during a "piston pin" warranty claim.
Don't ask me how I know this.

Also, in most cases, piston pin plug material is plainly visible in
the oil filter, and sometimes evident on the suction strainer (the
screeny-lookin' thing in the sump). It looks like aluminum "hair" in
random lengths.

TC

[G.R. Patterson III]

"Robert M. Gary" wrote:
>
> I'm sure the shop is doing it but I do most of the oil changes myself
> (except the one at annual). I'm not checking the screen.

I check mine every other oil change, whether I've run up 50 hours or not. My engine
is an O-320. On that, the screen looks like a horizontal drain plug on the sump.
Safety-wired, of course.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote:

> "Robert M. Gary" wrote:
> >
> > I'm sure the shop is doing it but I do most of the oil changes myself
> > (except the one at annual). I'm not checking the screen.
>
> I check mine every other oil change, whether I've run up 50 hours or not. My
> engine
> is an O-320. On that, the screen looks like a horizontal drain plug on the
> sump.
> Safety-wired, of course.
>
> George Patterson
> None of us is as dumb as all of us.



I check mine every oil change (25 hr) AND, I have a niobium magnet in
each drain plug, to collect all ferrous metals.

IMHO, the magnet asved my plane (possibly my life) a couple of years
ago, when I found some flattened pieces of steel, anout .05" across.
They were coming from the big roller bearing that serves as a thrust
bearing -- its cage had broken and it was making some noises which I
could hear at idle.

The steel drain plugs are the perfect place to put one or two of these
magnets, as they are self-attaching.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Orval Fairbairn wrote:
>
> The steel drain plugs are the perfect place to put one or two of these
> magnets, as they are self-attaching.

I replaced my drain plug with a quick-drain. That would certainly complicate using
the magnets on my aircraft.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.