Best bet in a used IFR GPS?

[C Kingsbury]

Hi all,

Currently examining options for upgrading a 1979 172N with an IFR-certified
GPS. We currently have two good nav/coms, M-1 Loran, and ADF that we want to
replace.

Goal is to find the most cost-efficient IFR GPS install to replace the ADF
and add legal /G and DME capabilities. Keeping in mind that the plane is
worth maybe 50k we are not going to spend 10-12k on a GNS-430 class box, so
as I see it we have these options:

- Northstar M-3 Approach
- Garmin 155 or 155XL
- King KLN-89B or KLN-90B
- Apollo GX-50

AFAICT one can pick up a decent used example of any of these for between
$1500 and $3000 depending. I know we'll also need the annunciator and CDI,
and that installation/certification will comprise 50% of the total cost.

One of my big concerns in buying an older GPS is database updates. I want to
make sure we will not end up say a year or two down the road with an
expensive VFR GPS because updates are no longer available. Also, general
mfr. support.

I would like a decent moving-map capability, but given that we have none in
the plane right now, even a simple airspace depiction like the KLN-89B would
be a significant gain. If we want something snazzy we can get it better on a
handheld anyway. I would spend an extra $500 for a better map, but $1000 or
$1500 I'd wonder about.

What would you guys do?

Best,
-cwk.

[Dude]

Here is a different way to look at the problem.

How bad of an investment do you want to make?

1. Installation is lost the second you put the machine in the plane.
2. The value of the box is already depreciated.

Considering 1 and 2, the more you spend on the box, the better the
investment. For example, if installation is 50% of the cost, then you lost
50%. If installation is 25% of the cost, you lost 25%.

You have a basic 172N that likely has another decade worth of service left
in it before it starts to go south on value. Why not buy something that will
last that long?

Unless you can get a sweet deal on the install, or on a particular unit, I
would be slow to dismiss a nicer machine like a used 430. Even if you spend
3k more, you will likely get it back. And, if you decide to sell your plane,
you can count on moving it much more quickly with that box in the panel.


"C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Hi all,
>
> Currently examining options for upgrading a 1979 172N with an
> IFR-certified
> GPS. We currently have two good nav/coms, M-1 Loran, and ADF that we want
> to
> replace.
>
> Goal is to find the most cost-efficient IFR GPS install to replace the ADF
> and add legal /G and DME capabilities. Keeping in mind that the plane is
> worth maybe 50k we are not going to spend 10-12k on a GNS-430 class box,
> so
> as I see it we have these options:
>
> - Northstar M-3 Approach
> - Garmin 155 or 155XL
> - King KLN-89B or KLN-90B
> - Apollo GX-50
>
> AFAICT one can pick up a decent used example of any of these for between
> $1500 and $3000 depending. I know we'll also need the annunciator and CDI,
> and that installation/certification will comprise 50% of the total cost.
>
> One of my big concerns in buying an older GPS is database updates. I want
> to
> make sure we will not end up say a year or two down the road with an
> expensive VFR GPS because updates are no longer available. Also, general
> mfr. support.
>
> I would like a decent moving-map capability, but given that we have none
> in
> the plane right now, even a simple airspace depiction like the KLN-89B
> would
> be a significant gain. If we want something snazzy we can get it better on
> a
> handheld anyway. I would spend an extra $500 for a better map, but $1000
> or
> $1500 I'd wonder about.
>
> What would you guys do?
>
> Best,
> -cwk.
>
>

[Jim Burns]

Check your email. I just bought a KLN94 to replace our 89B. email me if
you are interested.
Jim Burns

"C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Hi all,
>
> Currently examining options for upgrading a 1979 172N with an
IFR-certified
> GPS. We currently have two good nav/coms, M-1 Loran, and ADF that we want
to
> replace.
>
> Goal is to find the most cost-efficient IFR GPS install to replace the ADF
> and add legal /G and DME capabilities. Keeping in mind that the plane is
> worth maybe 50k we are not going to spend 10-12k on a GNS-430 class box,
so
> as I see it we have these options:
>
> - Northstar M-3 Approach
> - Garmin 155 or 155XL
> - King KLN-89B or KLN-90B
> - Apollo GX-50
>
> AFAICT one can pick up a decent used example of any of these for between
> $1500 and $3000 depending. I know we'll also need the annunciator and CDI,
> and that installation/certification will comprise 50% of the total cost.
>
> One of my big concerns in buying an older GPS is database updates. I want
to
> make sure we will not end up say a year or two down the road with an
> expensive VFR GPS because updates are no longer available. Also, general
> mfr. support.
>
> I would like a decent moving-map capability, but given that we have none
in
> the plane right now, even a simple airspace depiction like the KLN-89B
would
> be a significant gain. If we want something snazzy we can get it better on
a
> handheld anyway. I would spend an extra $500 for a better map, but $1000
or
> $1500 I'd wonder about.
>
> What would you guys do?
>
> Best,
> -cwk.
>
>


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[Bob Chilcoat]

There's a brand new, uninstalled Garmin 155XL for sale on the bulletin board
of our FBO. It's been there since April, so he might take less than the
$2,500 he was hoping for. Let me know if you want a contact number.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)

I don't have to like Bush and Cheney (Or Kerry, for that matter) to love
America

"C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Hi all,
>
> Currently examining options for upgrading a 1979 172N with an
IFR-certified
> GPS. We currently have two good nav/coms, M-1 Loran, and ADF that we want
to
> replace.
>
> Goal is to find the most cost-efficient IFR GPS install to replace the ADF
> and add legal /G and DME capabilities. Keeping in mind that the plane is
> worth maybe 50k we are not going to spend 10-12k on a GNS-430 class box,
so
> as I see it we have these options:
>
> - Northstar M-3 Approach
> - Garmin 155 or 155XL
> - King KLN-89B or KLN-90B
> - Apollo GX-50
>
> AFAICT one can pick up a decent used example of any of these for between
> $1500 and $3000 depending. I know we'll also need the annunciator and CDI,
> and that installation/certification will comprise 50% of the total cost.
>
> One of my big concerns in buying an older GPS is database updates. I want
to
> make sure we will not end up say a year or two down the road with an
> expensive VFR GPS because updates are no longer available. Also, general
> mfr. support.
>
> I would like a decent moving-map capability, but given that we have none
in
> the plane right now, even a simple airspace depiction like the KLN-89B
would
> be a significant gain. If we want something snazzy we can get it better on
a
> handheld anyway. I would spend an extra $500 for a better map, but $1000
or
> $1500 I'd wonder about.
>
> What would you guys do?
>
> Best,
> -cwk.
>
>

[Nathan Young]

Garmin 300XL might be another one to put on the list, and you would
gain a COM radio too. Ebay has them for <$2500.00


On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 20:25:10 GMT, "C Kingsbury"
> wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>Currently examining options for upgrading a 1979 172N with an IFR-certified
>GPS. We currently have two good nav/coms, M-1 Loran, and ADF that we want to
>replace.
>
>Goal is to find the most cost-efficient IFR GPS install to replace the ADF
>and add legal /G and DME capabilities. Keeping in mind that the plane is
>worth maybe 50k we are not going to spend 10-12k on a GNS-430 class box, so
>as I see it we have these options:
>
>- Northstar M-3 Approach
>- Garmin 155 or 155XL
>- King KLN-89B or KLN-90B
>- Apollo GX-50
>
>AFAICT one can pick up a decent used example of any of these for between
>$1500 and $3000 depending. I know we'll also need the annunciator and CDI,
>and that installation/certification will comprise 50% of the total cost.
>
>One of my big concerns in buying an older GPS is database updates. I want to
>make sure we will not end up say a year or two down the road with an
>expensive VFR GPS because updates are no longer available. Also, general
>mfr. support.
>
>I would like a decent moving-map capability, but given that we have none in
>the plane right now, even a simple airspace depiction like the KLN-89B would
>be a significant gain. If we want something snazzy we can get it better on a
>handheld anyway. I would spend an extra $500 for a better map, but $1000 or
>$1500 I'd wonder about.
>
>What would you guys do?
>
>Best,
>-cwk.
>

[Aaron Coolidge]

C Kingsbury > wrote:
: Currently examining options for upgrading a 1979 172N with an IFR-certified
: GPS. We currently have two good nav/coms, M-1 Loran, and ADF that we want to
: replace.

: Goal is to find the most cost-efficient IFR GPS install to replace the ADF
: and add legal /G and DME capabilities. Keeping in mind that the plane is
: worth maybe 50k we are not going to spend 10-12k on a GNS-430 class box, so
: as I see it we have these options:

: - Northstar M-3 Approach
: - Garmin 155 or 155XL
: - King KLN-89B or KLN-90B
: - Apollo GX-50

The Northstar, Garmin, and Apollo units have database updates through
Jeppesen. Jeppesen has promised support for my M3 Approach for the forseeable
future (although they are reducing the number of "niceties" in the database
as the number of intersections swells uncontrollably). The King units
have database updates through King which is a pain.

On any of those units except the M3, you're going to have to buy a switch
and annunciator (and perhaps a CDI). This will run you $1200 on top of the
GPS. The install will be quite lengthy, as there are many wires that need
to be run between the GPS, switch, annunciator, and CDI.

A 430 does not need external switches or annunciators, and has a much
simpler wiring interface, so the install time may make up for its higher
cost.

I'd contact the shop that you'd like to do the install, and ask them for
their take on the matter. They may even have a used GPS!

FWIW, I put a Northstar M3 in my Cherokee 18 months ago. The GPS, CDI, and
wiring harness cost $1200, and installation/certification was $400.
--
Aaron Coolidge

[Tom S.]

"C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> I would like a decent moving-map capability, but given that we have none
in
> the plane right now, even a simple airspace depiction like the KLN-89B
would
> be a significant gain. If we want something snazzy we can get it better on
a
> handheld anyway. I would spend an extra $500 for a better map, but $1000
or
> $1500 I'd wonder about.
>
> What would you guys do?

I'd stay away from Northstar and the King 89B, but go with the Garmin/Apollo
or the King 90.

[Doug]

There is nothing, operational, that you can do with one IFR GPS that
you can't with any of the other units (so long as it's approach unit).
Well, the Vnav units are the exception. I have a King KLN90B, and it's
advantage over the 89 is it has a better display. More readable as it
is brighter. Personally, I would get one of the King units, but any of
them would work. Look into cost of updates and ease of update.

"C Kingsbury" > wrote in message et>...
> Hi all,
>
> Currently examining options for upgrading a 1979 172N with an IFR-certified
> GPS. We currently have two good nav/coms, M-1 Loran, and ADF that we want to
> replace.
>
> Goal is to find the most cost-efficient IFR GPS install to replace the ADF
> and add legal /G and DME capabilities. Keeping in mind that the plane is
> worth maybe 50k we are not going to spend 10-12k on a GNS-430 class box, so
> as I see it we have these options:
>
> - Northstar M-3 Approach
> - Garmin 155 or 155XL
> - King KLN-89B or KLN-90B
> - Apollo GX-50
>
> AFAICT one can pick up a decent used example of any of these for between
> $1500 and $3000 depending. I know we'll also need the annunciator and CDI,
> and that installation/certification will comprise 50% of the total cost.
>
> One of my big concerns in buying an older GPS is database updates. I want to
> make sure we will not end up say a year or two down the road with an
> expensive VFR GPS because updates are no longer available. Also, general
> mfr. support.
>
> I would like a decent moving-map capability, but given that we have none in
> the plane right now, even a simple airspace depiction like the KLN-89B would
> be a significant gain. If we want something snazzy we can get it better on a
> handheld anyway. I would spend an extra $500 for a better map, but $1000 or
> $1500 I'd wonder about.
>
> What would you guys do?
>
> Best,
> -cwk.

[C Kingsbury]

"Aaron Coolidge" > wrote in message
...
> C Kingsbury > wrote:

> On any of those units except the M3, you're going to have to buy a switch
> and annunciator (and perhaps a CDI). This will run you $1200 on top of the
> GPS. The install will be quite lengthy, as there are many wires that need
> to be run between the GPS, switch, annunciator, and CDI.

Why does the M3 not require an annunciator, just out of curiosity?

-cwk.

[Doug]

You will probably never have trouble getting King updates.
There are TONS of KLN89's out there. Quite a few 90's also.
Garmin will probably continue to support the 155 as they are going
great guns and will support all their products as they have the money
and protect their reputation.

"C Kingsbury" > wrote in message et>...
> Hi all,
>
> Currently examining options for upgrading a 1979 172N with an IFR-certified
> GPS. We currently have two good nav/coms, M-1 Loran, and ADF that we want to
> replace.
>
> Goal is to find the most cost-efficient IFR GPS install to replace the ADF
> and add legal /G and DME capabilities. Keeping in mind that the plane is
> worth maybe 50k we are not going to spend 10-12k on a GNS-430 class box, so
> as I see it we have these options:
>
> - Northstar M-3 Approach
> - Garmin 155 or 155XL
> - King KLN-89B or KLN-90B
> - Apollo GX-50
>
> AFAICT one can pick up a decent used example of any of these for between
> $1500 and $3000 depending. I know we'll also need the annunciator and CDI,
> and that installation/certification will comprise 50% of the total cost.
>
> One of my big concerns in buying an older GPS is database updates. I want to
> make sure we will not end up say a year or two down the road with an
> expensive VFR GPS because updates are no longer available. Also, general
> mfr. support.
>
> I would like a decent moving-map capability, but given that we have none in
> the plane right now, even a simple airspace depiction like the KLN-89B would
> be a significant gain. If we want something snazzy we can get it better on a
> handheld anyway. I would spend an extra $500 for a better map, but $1000 or
> $1500 I'd wonder about.
>
> What would you guys do?
>
> Best,
> -cwk.

[Aaron Coolidge]

C Kingsbury > wrote:
:> On any of those units except the M3, you're going to have to buy a switch
:> and annunciator (and perhaps a CDI). This will run you $1200 on top of the
:> GPS. The install will be quite lengthy, as there are many wires that need
:> to be run between the GPS, switch, annunciator, and CDI.

: Why does the M3 not require an annunciator, just out of curiosity?

The M3 does require an annunciator, which (in my case) is built into the
Mid-Continent CDI. It doesn't require external switches or a resolver in the
CDI (which the 155Xl, 300Xl, 89B, GX50, etc require). Apologies if I
mislead you.
Are you in New England?
--
Aaron Coolidge

[Al Marzo]

On 8 Oct 2004 20:58:55 -0700, (Doug)
wrote:

>You will probably never have trouble getting King updates.
>There are TONS of KLN89's out there. Quite a few 90's also.
>Garmin will probably continue to support the 155 as they are going
>great guns and will support all their products as they have the money
>and protect their reputation.

Not sure if that's entirely true. Another way to put it is that
Garmin will support their product as long as they can turn a profit
that is acceptable to the fat cats on top. How many of the portable
units, you know, the ones that put them on the map, will they no
longer support with either upgrades or repair service?

Worst thing that could have happened was that they were allowed to buy
the competition.

[C Kingsbury]

Yes, based at BED, tower ramp.

"Aaron Coolidge" > wrote in message
...
> C Kingsbury > wrote:
> :> On any of those units except the M3, you're going to have to buy a
switch
> :> and annunciator (and perhaps a CDI). This will run you $1200 on top of
the
> :> GPS. The install will be quite lengthy, as there are many wires that
need
> :> to be run between the GPS, switch, annunciator, and CDI.
>
> : Why does the M3 not require an annunciator, just out of curiosity?
>
> The M3 does require an annunciator, which (in my case) is built into the
> Mid-Continent CDI. It doesn't require external switches or a resolver in
the
> CDI (which the 155Xl, 300Xl, 89B, GX50, etc require). Apologies if I
> mislead you.
> Are you in New England?
> --
> Aaron Coolidge
>
>

[C Kingsbury]

"Al Marzo" > wrote in message
...
> On 8 Oct 2004 20:58:55 -0700, (Doug)
> wrote:
>
> Not sure if that's entirely true. Another way to put it is that
> Garmin will support their product as long as they can turn a profit
> that is acceptable to the fat cats on top. How many of the portable

I actually like the Apollo GX units best out of all of these, but the
support factor really worries me. Though Jeppesen has every incentive to
keep selling database updates, Garmin also has plenty of incentives to make
supporting them a low priority. Likewise the Garmin first-gen boxes. I can
imagine them at some point saying, we won't support this anymore, but we'll
give you $500 off a new GNS-XXX or a year of free database updates if you
trade it in.

Garmin doesn't really have to compete too much right now. They've lapped
King in terms of panel-mount GPS and even nailed Avidyne to the wall on
glass panels. After all, while the G-1000 is an all-garmin product, the
Entegra always seems to come with Garmin radios. So they don't even need to
buy that one out like they did Apollo.

-cwk.

[Howard Nelson]

"C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> "Al Marzo" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On 8 Oct 2004 20:58:55 -0700, (Doug)
> > wrote:
> >
> > Not sure if that's entirely true. Another way to put it is that
> > Garmin will support their product as long as they can turn a profit
> > that is acceptable to the fat cats on top. How many of the portable
>
> I actually like the Apollo GX units best out of all of these, but the
> support factor really worries me. Though Jeppesen has every incentive to
> keep selling database updates, Garmin also has plenty of incentives to
make
> supporting them a low priority. Likewise the Garmin first-gen boxes. I can
> imagine them at some point saying, we won't support this anymore, but
we'll
> give you $500 off a new GNS-XXX or a year of free database updates if you
> trade it in.
>
> Garmin doesn't really have to compete too much right now. They've lapped
> King in terms of panel-mount GPS and even nailed Avidyne to the wall on
> glass panels. After all, while the G-1000 is an all-garmin product, the
> Entegra always seems to come with Garmin radios. So they don't even need
to
> buy that one out like they did Apollo.
>
> -cwk.

I do have experience with Jeppesen support and it seems very good. I have a
Trimble (remember them) TLN-2000 panel mount combo GPS/Loran. Think I bought
it in 1994 and still can get data base cards from Jeppesen even though
Trimble has gotten out of the general aviation market (liability perhaps?).
I haven't gotten an replacement GPS yet because it would require from the
ground up installation. None of the existing interfaces (antennas,
autopilot, trays, etc) could be reused. Have Garmin 196 for mapping and non
GPS instrument install for instrument flight.

All that being said I don't think I could get a decent IFR certified GPS
installed and interfaced to my autopilot (STEC 50) for less than 10K.
Probably would be more.
Howard C182P

Howard


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[C Kingsbury]

"Howard Nelson" > wrote in message
...

> I do have experience with Jeppesen support and it seems very good. I have
a

That's my point- The way Jeppesen sees it, they make (roughly) the same
money selling you an update for a first-generation steam-powered GPS as they
do a G-1000. Discontinuing support for a particular unit would in most cases
cost more than it saves. But what happens if the box needs repair? Are there
3rd-party shops that can fix this stuff, or do you rely on the mfr. giving a
crap? King I'd feel comfortable relying on but Garmin, nope.

> All that being said I don't think I could get a decent IFR certified GPS
> installed and interfaced to my autopilot (STEC 50) for less than 10K.
> Probably would be more.

I wish I had an autopilot that needed interfacing to. Heck, I wish I had an
autopilot period. In any case that adds significantly to install cost. One
of the flight schools on my field has been spending about 6k each putting
IFR GPSs in all their Warriors and Skyhawks over the past couple years.

-cwk.

[Aaron Coolidge]

C Kingsbury > wrote:
: Yes, based at BED, tower ramp.

You mght want to check with Ernie Carrol at Integrity Air Services over at
WST. (401-348-0018). He's very good, and very reasonable. He's also very
busy because of that! Ask him what he recommends. He's the shop that did
my install.
PS, my GPS was interfaced with my autopilot as well for that price I mentioned
before.

PPS, if you'd like to see my GPS install drop me a line and we'll work
something out - I'm based at 1B9.
--
Aaron Coolidge

[Paul Lee]

Yes. And the 300XL is same size as 155XL and saves additional panel
space/weight of that old comm you can remove.

Nathan Young > wrote in message >...
> Garmin 300XL might be another one to put on the list, and you would
> gain a COM radio too. Ebay has them for <$2500.00
> ..............

[Ross Richardson]

What is wrong with the 89/B? I had the same problem that Colin is
writing about. I have a '65 C-172 and it came with a VFR GPS. It had an
non functioning ADF and no DME. Rather that sink money into that I
purchased a reconditioned 89/B. It is not a 430, but it works pretty
nice once you get to know it beyond Direct To. Yes, you need to have
additional equipment installed, but no big deal. I think I got away less
that $4500 complete. I get updates quite painless with the King
Dataloader. I would like to remove the card to reprogram, but I have to
take the laptop to the plane. I am done in about 15 minutes and I get to
see the plane. You can get a set up to take the 89/B to the computer,
but I didn't like the idea of continually removing the GPS.

Ross

"Tom S." wrote:
>
> "C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> >
> > I would like a decent moving-map capability, but given that we have none
> in
> > the plane right now, even a simple airspace depiction like the KLN-89B
> would
> > be a significant gain. If we want something snazzy we can get it better on
> a
> > handheld anyway. I would spend an extra $500 for a better map, but $1000
> or
> > $1500 I'd wonder about.
> >
> > What would you guys do?
>
> I'd stay away from Northstar and the King 89B, but go with the Garmin/Apollo
> or the King 90.

[cc]

The KLN89 is fine so long as you don't actually use it for an approach.
When I did my instrument rating I was the only pilot in a large school to
successfully load an approach. Not one of 14 Instructors had been able to
do it.

Garmin AT has kept the people who were at UPS - this has not been a cut &
gut acquisition. I know people who were part of Apollo/UPS and they think
it was a good deal for them. UPS did not care about them at all.

The GX-50/60 is the best unit out there if you can find one. I'm sticking
with mine until they eliminate the ILS equipment and demand that we all go
to C146 equipment.