Flying into Chass B

[PaulaJay1]

Do I feel DUMB!

Flying west at 4500 ft I was "fat,dumb and happy" when I noticed I was in a
4000/10000 ft Class B vail. DIVE to get to 2500. I was not on the radio and
chose not to call approach.

I've filed the NASA form. By the way, what does that get me?

Now, I guess, I just wait to see if I will be contacted.

Anybody else been here? What can I expect if contacted?

Chuck

[zatatime]

On 28 Oct 2004 16:01:27 GMT, (PaulaJay1) wrote:

>I've filed the NASA form. By the way, what does that get me?

Basically one free mistake every five years.
>

>
>Anybody else been here?

Fotunately, no.

> What can I expect if contacted?

Not sure, but keep a copy of your NASA form handy.

How far did you go into the 'B' airspace?

z

[Roy Smith]

PaulaJay1 > wrote:
>Do I feel DUMB!
>
>Flying west at 4500 ft I was "fat,dumb and happy" when I noticed I was in a
>4000/10000 ft Class B vail. DIVE to get to 2500. I was not on the radio and
>chose not to call approach.
>
>I've filed the NASA form. By the way, what does that get me?

It gets you protection from being prosecuted (not sure if that's the
right legal word) for your accidental clearance bust, assuming the FAA
were to initiate any action.

>Now, I guess, I just wait to see if I will be contacted.

It is unlikely. The Class B controller was undoubtedly watching you
on radar, but all he saw was an anonymous VFR target squawking 1200 (I
assume you had your xponder on). At some point, he saw your altitude
readout zoom down to 2500, mumbled to himself, "That idiot finally
figured out where he was", and got on with his life.

To figure out who you were, he would have had to track you all the way
to your destination and then have somebody there get your N-number.
Unless you did something really exciting, it's highly unlikely he
would have bothered.

>Anybody else been here? What can I expect if contacted?

People make mistakes. The key is to admit them (you've taken that
step already) and learn from them. If you were just being lazy and
unattentive, make sure you pay more attention next time. If it was a
navigation error, go find an instructor and brush up on your
navigation skills. If it's airspace you fly in often, go up with
somebody who's more familiar with the area and have them show you some
good landmarks to tell where the CBAS boundary is.

[Peter R.]

Roy Smith ) wrote:

> At some point, he saw your altitude
> readout zoom down to 2500, mumbled to himself, "That idiot finally
> figured out where he was", and got on with his life.

LOL! Pretty funny imagery there...

--
Peter

[PaulaJay1]

In article >, (Roy Smith) writes:

>It is unlikely. The Class B controller was undoubtedly watching you
>on radar, but all he saw was an anonymous VFR target squawking 1200 (I
>assume you had your xponder on). At some point, he saw your altitude
>readout zoom down to 2500, mumbled to himself, "That idiot finally
>figured out where he was", and got on with his life.
>
>To figure out who you were, he would have had to track you all the way
>to your destination and then have somebody there get your N-number.
>Unless you did something really exciting, it's highly unlikely he
>would have bothered.

Unfortunately, my GTX330 reports my N number (why did they do that?).
Maybe I should remove the N number from the report (lock the barn after the
horse.....). No planes were showing on the traffic display so there was no
loss of seperation caused. I was probably in B for a couple of miles at a
slant so I was probably a mile or less closer to the airport.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"PaulaJay1" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, (Roy Smith)
> writes:
>
>>It is unlikely. The Class B controller was undoubtedly watching you
>>on radar, but all he saw was an anonymous VFR target squawking 1200 (I
>>assume you had your xponder on). At some point, he saw your altitude
>>readout zoom down to 2500, mumbled to himself, "That idiot finally
>>figured out where he was", and got on with his life.
>>
>>To figure out who you were, he would have had to track you all the way
>>to your destination and then have somebody there get your N-number.
>>Unless you did something really exciting, it's highly unlikely he
>>would have bothered.
>>
>
> Unfortunately, my GTX330 reports my N number (why did they do that?).
> Maybe I should remove the N number from the report (lock the barn after
> the
> horse.....). No planes were showing on the traffic display so there was
> no
> loss of seperation caused. I was probably in B for a couple of miles at a
> slant so I was probably a mile or less closer to the airport.
>

Who does your GTX330 report your N number to?

[OtisWinslow]

"PaulaJay1" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, (Roy Smith)
> writes:
>
>
> Unfortunately, my GTX330 reports my N number (why did they do that?).

Why would you want something that tattles on you?

[[email protected]]

OtisWinslow > wrote:
: > Unfortunately, my GTX330 reports my N number (why did they do that?).

: Why would you want something that tattles on you?

They made it an 'S' for "Secret" so you wouldn't know it was tattling on you.
And since S > C in the alphabet, plane owners who want the best and baddest would feel
compelled up upgrade.

Same with the new 406MHz ELTs. Then they can prosecute you for not waiting
until <5 minutes into the hour before testing it at your annual. It'll snitch your
N-number too.

-Cory


--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Allen]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "PaulaJay1" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, (Roy Smith)
> > writes:
> >
> >>It is unlikely. The Class B controller was undoubtedly watching you
> >>on radar, but all he saw was an anonymous VFR target squawking 1200 (I
> >>assume you had your xponder on). At some point, he saw your altitude
> >>readout zoom down to 2500, mumbled to himself, "That idiot finally
> >>figured out where he was", and got on with his life.
> >>
> >>To figure out who you were, he would have had to track you all the way
> >>to your destination and then have somebody there get your N-number.
> >>Unless you did something really exciting, it's highly unlikely he
> >>would have bothered.
> >>
> >
> > Unfortunately, my GTX330 reports my N number (why did they do that?).
> > Maybe I should remove the N number from the report (lock the barn after
> > the
> > horse.....). No planes were showing on the traffic display so there was
> > no
> > loss of seperation caused. I was probably in B for a couple of miles at
a
> > slant so I was probably a mile or less closer to the airport.
> >
>
> Who does your GTX330 report your N number to?

I was sitting at the end of the runway waiting to do a test flight in a
customer's aircraft. He had a MFD hooked up to a Garmin 530 and TCAS.
There were several airplanes in the pattern, the MFD was giving me their "N"
number, squawk code and altitude. A T37 in the pattern only gave out his
altitude and squawk code.

Ain't technology great!

Allen

[Ron Natalie]

PaulaJay1 wrote:

>
> Unfortunately, my GTX330 reports my N number (why did they do that?).

Actually, it gives a mode S id number which they can look up in
the registration database and map to your N number.

[Ron Natalie]

Allen wrote:

>
> I was sitting at the end of the runway waiting to do a test flight in a
> customer's aircraft. He had a MFD hooked up to a Garmin 530 and TCAS.
> There were several airplanes in the pattern, the MFD was giving me their "N"
> number, squawk code and altitude. A T37 in the pattern only gave out his
> altitude and squawk code.
>
Probably TIS rather than TCAS.

[PaulaJay1]

In article et>, "Steven P.
McNicoll" > writes:

>Who does your GTX330 report your N number to?
>

I assumed that it is transmitted back with altitude and code. Good question
about it being available to controller. As a controller, what do you know
about it being displayed at your end?

[Peter R.]

Ron Natalie ) wrote:

> >
> > I was sitting at the end of the runway waiting to do a test flight in a
> > customer's aircraft. He had a MFD hooked up to a Garmin 530 and TCAS.
> > There were several airplanes in the pattern, the MFD was giving me their "N"
> > number, squawk code and altitude. A T37 in the pattern only gave out his
> > altitude and squawk code.
> >
> Probably TIS rather than TCAS.

The Garmin TIS behind which I fly does not display an N number, either
on the GNS430 or the MX20. The only number near the target is the
relative altitude of the target in relation to my aircraft.

--
Peter

[William Snow]

A NASA form was intended to collect information about the national airspace
system
Accordingly, for being so generous and providing information you get a pass
as I understand it.

[Peter Clark]

On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:32:53 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>Who does your GTX330 report your N number to?

I don't think they do directly report the N number, but doesn't the
installer-coded Mode S octal code get downllinked to ATC whenever a
mode-s enabled ground interrogator paints it, regardless of the unit's
user-selectable "flight id" or 4096 code setting, thus effectively
downlinking the N number because of a trivial database lookup?

[Allen]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Ron Natalie ) wrote:
>
> > >
> > > I was sitting at the end of the runway waiting to do a test flight in
a
> > > customer's aircraft. He had a MFD hooked up to a Garmin 530 and TCAS.
> > > There were several airplanes in the pattern, the MFD was giving me
their "N"
> > > number, squawk code and altitude. A T37 in the pattern only gave out
his
> > > altitude and squawk code.
> > >
> > Probably TIS rather than TCAS.
>
> The Garmin TIS behind which I fly does not display an N number, either
> on the GNS430 or the MX20. The only number near the target is the
> relative altitude of the target in relation to my aircraft.
>
> --
> Peter
>
I would guess the aircraft you are receiving the info from would have to
have mode S.

Allen

[C J Campbell]

"PaulaJay1" > wrote in message
...
> Do I feel DUMB!
>
> Flying west at 4500 ft I was "fat,dumb and happy" when I noticed I was in
a
> 4000/10000 ft Class B vail. DIVE to get to 2500. I was not on the radio
and
> chose not to call approach.

OK, I did that as a student pilot. What they do is men in dark suits come to
your door on a dark, foggy night, beat the snot out of you, and disappear.
Seriously, nothing happened. You will suffer some temporary embarrassment.

[BTIZ]

only if the controllers interrogator is set to receive ModeS


"PaulaJay1" > wrote in message
...
> In article et>, "Steven
> P.
> McNicoll" > writes:
>
>>Who does your GTX330 report your N number to?
>>
>
> I assumed that it is transmitted back with altitude and code. Good
> question
> about it being available to controller. As a controller, what do you know
> about it being displayed at your end?

[Newps]

BTIZ wrote:
> only if the controllers interrogator is set to receive ModeS

That's funny. My radar is mode S with a non mode S backup(IBI).
Whether we set the radar to work in mode S or IBI mode I cannot display
any different kind of data.

[Peter R.]

Allen ) wrote:

> I would guess the aircraft you are receiving the info from would have to
> have mode S.

Well, I have only had the unit since July, so I suppose it is possible
that I have yet to look at the screen at the moment a mode S transponder
passed by.

But, the chances should have been pretty good that during the last eight
times through NY class B airspace I would have seen one mode S return,
no?

--
Peter

[C Kingsbury]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> PaulaJay1 > wrote:
>
> >I've filed the NASA form. By the way, what does that get me?
>
> It gets you protection from being prosecuted (not sure if that's the
> right legal word) for your accidental clearance bust, assuming the FAA
> were to initiate any action.

It doesn't prevent them from violating you, it simply means that if they
investigate and find you at fault they can't actually take action against
your certificate. In other words, you don't lose your license, but you
record will (permanently or temporarily as the case may be) reflect the
results of the investigation. In other words, it doesn't prevent them from
finding you guilty, it just means you won't go to jail.

-cwk.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"PaulaJay1" > wrote in message
...
> In article et>, "Steven
> P.
> McNicoll" > writes:
>
>>Who does your GTX330 report your N number to?
>>
>
> I assumed that it is transmitted back with altitude and code. Good
> question
> about it being available to controller. As a controller, what do you know
> about it being displayed at your end?
>

At my end the aircraft callsign, which can be an N-number or air carrier
flight number or military callsign, is displayed only when the ARTS computer
can associate it with a discrete ATC assigned squawk code.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
>
> I don't think they do directly report the N number, but doesn't the
> installer-coded Mode S octal code get downllinked to ATC whenever a
> mode-s enabled ground interrogator paints it, regardless of the unit's
> user-selectable "flight id" or 4096 code setting, thus effectively
> downlinking the N number because of a trivial database lookup?
>

Beats the hell out of me. The only time I get a callsign displayed is when
the aircraft is squawking an ATC assigned beacon code and the ARTS computer
associates that code to a specified callsign.

[Allen]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Allen ) wrote:
>
> > I would guess the aircraft you are receiving the info from would have to
> > have mode S.
>
> Well, I have only had the unit since July, so I suppose it is possible
> that I have yet to look at the screen at the moment a mode S transponder
> passed by.
>
> But, the chances should have been pretty good that during the last eight
> times through NY class B airspace I would have seen one mode S return,
> no?
>
> --
> Peter


All I know is it was displaying "N" numbers, and they were accurate. The
airplane has been delivered so I can't see if he had additional equipment
installed that allowed that.

Allen

[Peter R.]

Allen ) wrote:

> All I know is it was displaying "N" numbers, and they were accurate. The
> airplane has been delivered so I can't see if he had additional equipment
> installed that allowed that.

I was not questioning your observation. I was simply stating that I do
not see it in my installation, that's all.

Was the display cluttered with all that info? Were you able to quickly
garner the pertinent traffic information, such as direction and relative
altitude, with the N number mixed in?

I do not see the value in having the N number displayed, but perhaps
there is some reason for it I am missing.

--
Peter

[Dave]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message et>...

> Who does your GTX330 report your N number to?

It's in the response data stream sent back to ATC from the GTX-330.
However, ask any controller at any major Class B facility, and it's
unlikely they're actually showing it (if their equipment even is
updated to receive it).

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Dave" > wrote in message
om...
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> et>...
>>
>> Who does your GTX330 report your N number to?
>>
>
> It's in the response data stream sent back to ATC from the GTX-330.
> However, ask any controller at any major Class B facility, and it's
> unlikely they're actually showing it (if their equipment even is
> updated to receive it).
>

So what's the point in sending it to ATC?

[Allen]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Allen ) wrote:
>
> > All I know is it was displaying "N" numbers, and they were accurate.
The
> > airplane has been delivered so I can't see if he had additional
equipment
> > installed that allowed that.
>
> I was not questioning your observation. I was simply stating that I do
> not see it in my installation, that's all.
>
> Was the display cluttered with all that info? Were you able to quickly
> garner the pertinent traffic information, such as direction and relative
> altitude, with the N number mixed in?
>
> I do not see the value in having the N number displayed, but perhaps
> there is some reason for it I am missing.
>
> --
> Peter
>

I had the screen de-cluttered (nav info off). I do recall now that this
airplane had an active datalink, it was showing thunderstorm watch boxes in
my area. Perhaps the info was coming from ATC or a flight tracking vendor.
The screen would update fast enough you could see the other airplane's
position in the pattern and then the collision avoidance alert would go off
as he got near.

Allen

[G.R. Patterson III]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
>
> So what's the point in sending it to ATC?

There was considerable suspicion in the aviation community back in the early 90s that
the FAA planned to require ATC to display the info and report violators once all
aircraft were required to have mode-S transponders. That requirement kept getting
postponed and seems to have finally died (for now, at least). Personally, I believe
that the suspicions were correct and controllers would be doing more police work now
if the FAA had its way.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[PaulaJay1]

In article . net>, "Steven P.
McNicoll" > writes:

>It's in the response data stream sent back to ATC from the GTX-330.
>> However, ask any controller at any major Class B facility, and it's
>> unlikely they're actually showing it (if their equipment even is
>> updated to receive it).
>>
>
>So what's the point in sending it to ATC?

I know a good reason NOT to send it! :-(

Chuck

[Bill Hale]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message >...
> "PaulaJay1" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Do I feel DUMB!
> >
> > Flying west at 4500 ft I was "fat,dumb and happy" when I noticed I was in
> a
> > 4000/10000 ft Class B vail. DIVE to get to 2500. I was not on the radio
> and
> > chose not to call approach.
>
> OK, I did that as a student pilot. What they do is men in dark suits come to
> your door on a dark, foggy night, beat the snot out of you, and disappear.
> Seriously, nothing happened. You will suffer some temporary embarrassment.

As another poster pointed out, the nasa form is a "get out of jail free" card.
You would still have a violation if they pursued it. That would interest your
ins co.

I was involved in a similar situation. Investigation showed that the appr
control involved was not looking at the mode S data. Whew.

Bill Hale

[Ray Andraka]

GTX330 is a mode S transponder. It replies to certain interogations with the
24 bit code assigned to your aircraft, and to another interogation with a user
id that is programmed by the installing shop. For GA aircraft, that is usually
programmed with the N number. It can also be programmed (perhaps not on the
garmin) with a flight number as you'd have in the case of a scheduled airline.
Mode C transponders only offer two replies: the squawk code or the altitude.
Mode S have a bunch of possible replies.

Allen wrote:

> "Peter R." > wrote in message
> ...
> > Allen ) wrote:
> >
> > > All I know is it was displaying "N" numbers, and they were accurate.
> The
> > > airplane has been delivered so I can't see if he had additional
> equipment
> > > installed that allowed that.
> >
> > I was not questioning your observation. I was simply stating that I do
> > not see it in my installation, that's all.
> >
> > Was the display cluttered with all that info? Were you able to quickly
> > garner the pertinent traffic information, such as direction and relative
> > altitude, with the N number mixed in?
> >
> > I do not see the value in having the N number displayed, but perhaps
> > there is some reason for it I am missing.
> >
> > --
> > Peter
> >
>
> I had the screen de-cluttered (nav info off). I do recall now that this
> airplane had an active datalink, it was showing thunderstorm watch boxes in
> my area. Perhaps the info was coming from ATC or a flight tracking vendor.
> The screen would update fast enough you could see the other airplane's
> position in the pattern and then the collision avoidance alert would go off
> as he got near.
>
> Allen

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[Paul Sengupta]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
> >
> > So what's the point in sending it to ATC?
>
> There was considerable suspicion in the aviation community back in the
early 90s that
> the FAA planned to require ATC to display the info and report violators
once all
> aircraft were required to have mode-S transponders. That requirement kept
getting
> postponed and seems to have finally died (for now, at least). Personally,
I believe
> that the suspicions were correct and controllers would be doing more
police work now
> if the FAA had its way.

We're getting that in 2008...compulsory Mode S. On top of the
violation thing (which can happen at any time, regardless of whether
the number is displayed on the screen or not...I expect it would be
recorded) there's also the suspicion that it could be used for
charging for airspace use.

Paul