AutoGas question.. Jay Honeck, Jim Weir.. others..

[Dave S]

The folks here who are running autogas.. I have a question for you.

Preface: When I was tasked by my volunteer fire department 10 years ago
to stamp out fuel credit card abuse and fraud, I secured the services of
a certain brand's fleet card system. The sales vendor who set up our
account told me that any of our OFF ROAD engines were eligible to be
billed free of the state and federal highway fuel taxes. In the fire
dept's case this was for generators and free standing pumps.. but our
"off road" gasoline useage was so light that it wasnt even worth the hassle.

So.. Since aircraft (with the exception of Mr Moller's wannabe Skycar
and a few others) are not considered licensed motor vehicles for the
purpose of the fuel taxes, do you guys make an effort to obtain fuel
with a special account that gives credit for these taxes? In Texas the
amount is 38.5 cents/gal and over a year or so that can add up to real
money (especially in light of the discounted price of autogas compared
to 100LL)

I'm presuming some method of accounting would be needed in the event of
an audit.. but just wanted to see if 1) anyone else was aware of this 2)
does it still exist and 3) does anyone do it?

I figured Jay Honeck would be a perfect example of someone who could do
this, since he has his Mighty Grape (TM) fuel shuttlemobile. If the
Texas rates apply I would guess this could drop Atlas's operating costs
by $4-$6 per hour (40 cents x 10-15 GPH). Fillup of the Grape's 60 gal
tank would be about $23-$24 cheaper. Every little bit helps.

I was planning on contacting Fuelman/Rushce about their fuelcard setup
but havent gotten to it just yet (many months out from flying the
Velocity with auto conversion)...

So.. anyone have input, feedback, comment?
Dave

[Jay Honeck]

> I figured Jay Honeck would be a perfect example of someone who could do
> this, since he has his Mighty Grape (TM) fuel shuttlemobile. If the Texas
> rates apply I would guess this could drop Atlas's operating costs by $4-$6
> per hour (40 cents x 10-15 GPH). Fillup of the Grape's 60 gal tank would
> be about $23-$24 cheaper. Every little bit helps.

This is an intriguing idea. I've heard about doing this, but have never
pursued it.

I hope someone here can point the way for the rest of us (as far as what
paperwork is required, the procedures to follow, etc.), as this is a
significant savings!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[TripFarmer]

You need to check with your state. In Alabama it doesn't apply to
airplanes. It's meant to apply to large machinery like front-end
loaders, road machinery (scrapers, etc.) and the like. But your
state will let you know it's laws.


Trip




In article t>, says...
>
>The folks here who are running autogas.. I have a question for you.
>
>Preface: When I was tasked by my volunteer fire department 10 years ago
>to stamp out fuel credit card abuse and fraud, I secured the services of
>a certain brand's fleet card system. The sales vendor who set up our
>account told me that any of our OFF ROAD engines were eligible to be
>billed free of the state and federal highway fuel taxes. In the fire
>dept's case this was for generators and free standing pumps.. but our
>"off road" gasoline useage was so light that it wasnt even worth the hassle.
>
>So.. Since aircraft (with the exception of Mr Moller's wannabe Skycar
>and a few others) are not considered licensed motor vehicles for the
>purpose of the fuel taxes, do you guys make an effort to obtain fuel
>with a special account that gives credit for these taxes? In Texas the
>amount is 38.5 cents/gal and over a year or so that can add up to real
>money (especially in light of the discounted price of autogas compared
>to 100LL)
>
>I'm presuming some method of accounting would be needed in the event of
>an audit.. but just wanted to see if 1) anyone else was aware of this 2)
>does it still exist and 3) does anyone do it?
>
>I figured Jay Honeck would be a perfect example of someone who could do
>this, since he has his Mighty Grape (TM) fuel shuttlemobile. If the
>Texas rates apply I would guess this could drop Atlas's operating costs
>by $4-$6 per hour (40 cents x 10-15 GPH). Fillup of the Grape's 60 gal
>tank would be about $23-$24 cheaper. Every little bit helps.
>
>I was planning on contacting Fuelman/Rushce about their fuelcard setup
>but havent gotten to it just yet (many months out from flying the
>Velocity with auto conversion)...
>
>So.. anyone have input, feedback, comment?
>Dave
>

[Dave S]

Umm.. why WOULDNT it apply? You are using it for an engine that is NOT
being used to operate upon public highways? In theory you could even do
this for your gasoline lawn mower but at less than a gallon a month
useage its just not worth the hassle..

Oh well.... I WILL check into it for my state... and I am sure if I
check with a national fuel card vendor they can tell me if certain
states disallow or permit such things..

Dave

TripFarmer wrote:
> You need to check with your state. In Alabama it doesn't apply to
> airplanes. It's meant to apply to large machinery like front-end
> loaders, road machinery (scrapers, etc.) and the like. But your
> state will let you know it's laws.
>
>
> Trip
>
>
>
>
> In article t>, says...
>
>>The folks here who are running autogas.. I have a question for you.
>>
>>Preface: When I was tasked by my volunteer fire department 10 years ago
>>to stamp out fuel credit card abuse and fraud, I secured the services of
>>a certain brand's fleet card system. The sales vendor who set up our
>>account told me that any of our OFF ROAD engines were eligible to be
>>billed free of the state and federal highway fuel taxes. In the fire
>>dept's case this was for generators and free standing pumps.. but our
>>"off road" gasoline useage was so light that it wasnt even worth the hassle.
>>
>>So.. Since aircraft (with the exception of Mr Moller's wannabe Skycar
>>and a few others) are not considered licensed motor vehicles for the
>>purpose of the fuel taxes, do you guys make an effort to obtain fuel
>>with a special account that gives credit for these taxes? In Texas the
>>amount is 38.5 cents/gal and over a year or so that can add up to real
>>money (especially in light of the discounted price of autogas compared
>>to 100LL)
>>
>>I'm presuming some method of accounting would be needed in the event of
>>an audit.. but just wanted to see if 1) anyone else was aware of this 2)
>>does it still exist and 3) does anyone do it?
>>
>>I figured Jay Honeck would be a perfect example of someone who could do
>>this, since he has his Mighty Grape (TM) fuel shuttlemobile. If the
>>Texas rates apply I would guess this could drop Atlas's operating costs
>>by $4-$6 per hour (40 cents x 10-15 GPH). Fillup of the Grape's 60 gal
>>tank would be about $23-$24 cheaper. Every little bit helps.
>>
>>I was planning on contacting Fuelman/Rushce about their fuelcard setup
>>but havent gotten to it just yet (many months out from flying the
>>Velocity with auto conversion)...
>>
>>So.. anyone have input, feedback, comment?
>>Dave
>>
>
>

[Rosspilot]

I haven't looked into it, although it would be worthwhile to save the tax
portion of a gallon. I have been somewhat happy to pay the $1.90 and be
grateful my plane runs so well on it.


www.Rosspilot.com

[[email protected]]

It depends on the state. There are a few pages (too lazy to google for you
now) that specify which ones and how much. I know firsthand that Virgina (where I'm
located) will refund $0.175/gal for some things (e.g. boats). For aircraft, it's
$0.125/gal (I'm assuming a nickel out for airport taxes). I fill my PA-28 from 6
gallon cans shuttled from the nearby service station. I just have to submit the
receipts along with a form within 1 year of the purchase.

I've gotten back over $225 so far between post cross-country flight fuelups
and my instrument rating training.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[John Clonts]

"Dave S" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> The folks here who are running autogas.. I have a question for you.
>
> Preface: When I was tasked by my volunteer fire department 10 years ago
> to stamp out fuel credit card abuse and fraud, I secured the services of
> a certain brand's fleet card system. The sales vendor who set up our
> account told me that any of our OFF ROAD engines were eligible to be
> billed free of the state and federal highway fuel taxes. In the fire
> dept's case this was for generators and free standing pumps.. but our
> "off road" gasoline useage was so light that it wasnt even worth the
hassle.
>
> So.. Since aircraft (with the exception of Mr Moller's wannabe Skycar
> and a few others) are not considered licensed motor vehicles for the
> purpose of the fuel taxes, do you guys make an effort to obtain fuel
> with a special account that gives credit for these taxes? In Texas the
> amount is 38.5 cents/gal and over a year or so that can add up to real
> money (especially in light of the discounted price of autogas compared
> to 100LL)
>
> I'm presuming some method of accounting would be needed in the event of
> an audit.. but just wanted to see if 1) anyone else was aware of this 2)
> does it still exist and 3) does anyone do it?
>
> I figured Jay Honeck would be a perfect example of someone who could do
> this, since he has his Mighty Grape (TM) fuel shuttlemobile. If the
> Texas rates apply I would guess this could drop Atlas's operating costs
> by $4-$6 per hour (40 cents x 10-15 GPH). Fillup of the Grape's 60 gal
> tank would be about $23-$24 cheaper. Every little bit helps.
>
> I was planning on contacting Fuelman/Rushce about their fuelcard setup
> but havent gotten to it just yet (many months out from flying the
> Velocity with auto conversion)...
>
> So.. anyone have input, feedback, comment?
> Dave


Hello Dave,

For Texas:

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/TX/content/htm/tx.002.00.000162.00.htm

look at paragraph "162.125 (c) 4"

http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/taxforms/06-forms.html

under "refunds"

Note, I have no experience with this, but it does sound pretty interesting!

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[TripFarmer]

Like I said, check with YOUR state. They are the controlling entity.



Trip
Some people will argue about anything.


In article . net>, says...
>
>Umm.. why WOULDNT it apply? You are using it for an engine that is NOT
>being used to operate upon public highways? In theory you could even do
>this for your gasoline lawn mower but at less than a gallon a month
>useage its just not worth the hassle..
>
>Oh well.... I WILL check into it for my state... and I am sure if I
>check with a national fuel card vendor they can tell me if certain
>states disallow or permit such things..
>
>Dave
>
>TripFarmer wrote:
>> You need to check with your state. In Alabama it doesn't apply to
>> airplanes. It's meant to apply to large machinery like front-end
>> loaders, road machinery (scrapers, etc.) and the like. But your
>> state will let you know it's laws.
>>
>>
>> Trip
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> In article t>, DoggtyredRN
says...
>>
>>>The folks here who are running autogas.. I have a question for you.
>>>
>>>Preface: When I was tasked by my volunteer fire department 10 years ago
>>>to stamp out fuel credit card abuse and fraud, I secured the services of
>>>a certain brand's fleet card system. The sales vendor who set up our
>>>account told me that any of our OFF ROAD engines were eligible to be
>>>billed free of the state and federal highway fuel taxes. In the fire
>>>dept's case this was for generators and free standing pumps.. but our
>>>"off road" gasoline useage was so light that it wasnt even worth the hassle.
>>>
>>>So.. Since aircraft (with the exception of Mr Moller's wannabe Skycar
>>>and a few others) are not considered licensed motor vehicles for the
>>>purpose of the fuel taxes, do you guys make an effort to obtain fuel
>>>with a special account that gives credit for these taxes? In Texas the
>>>amount is 38.5 cents/gal and over a year or so that can add up to real
>>>money (especially in light of the discounted price of autogas compared
>>>to 100LL)
>>>
>>>I'm presuming some method of accounting would be needed in the event of
>>>an audit.. but just wanted to see if 1) anyone else was aware of this 2)
>>>does it still exist and 3) does anyone do it?
>>>
>>>I figured Jay Honeck would be a perfect example of someone who could do
>>>this, since he has his Mighty Grape (TM) fuel shuttlemobile. If the
>>>Texas rates apply I would guess this could drop Atlas's operating costs
>>>by $4-$6 per hour (40 cents x 10-15 GPH). Fillup of the Grape's 60 gal
>>>tank would be about $23-$24 cheaper. Every little bit helps.
>>>
>>>I was planning on contacting Fuelman/Rushce about their fuelcard setup
>>>but havent gotten to it just yet (many months out from flying the
>>>Velocity with auto conversion)...
>>>
>>>So.. anyone have input, feedback, comment?
>>>Dave
>>>
>>
>>
>

[RKHenry]

"Dave S" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> The folks here who are running autogas.. I have a question for you.

I've also read that in some states you can get a refund of fuel taxes on
avgas.

I'm not sure how members of the "Can Clan" who tanker fuel from the corner
gas station in jerry cans would handle this. It's one thing to send the
state a fuel invoice from the FBO, it's another to send in a cash register
receipt from the convenience mart.

Would it make any difference to anyone if you knew that the tax was going
into the Airport & Airways Fund instead of the state highway fund? I worry a
little about that now that the airlines are arguing that the reason that
they're all hemorraging money is because General Aviation isn't paying for
100% of the cost of ATC--which was mandated by the airlines.

RK Henry

[Allen]

"Dave S" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> The folks here who are running autogas.. I have a question for you.
>
> Preface: When I was tasked by my volunteer fire department 10 years ago
> to stamp out fuel credit card abuse and fraud, I secured the services of
> a certain brand's fleet card system. The sales vendor who set up our
> account told me that any of our OFF ROAD engines were eligible to be
> billed free of the state and federal highway fuel taxes. In the fire
> dept's case this was for generators and free standing pumps.. but our
> "off road" gasoline useage was so light that it wasnt even worth the
hassle.
>
> So.. Since aircraft (with the exception of Mr Moller's wannabe Skycar
> and a few others) are not considered licensed motor vehicles for the
> purpose of the fuel taxes, do you guys make an effort to obtain fuel
> with a special account that gives credit for these taxes? In Texas the
> amount is 38.5 cents/gal and over a year or so that can add up to real
> money (especially in light of the discounted price of autogas compared
> to 100LL)
>

I know that in New Mexico the road tax is added to avfuel also, you had to
apply for the refund just as you would for off-road auto fuel.

allen

[[email protected]]

RKHenry > wrote:
: I'm not sure how members of the "Can Clan" who tanker fuel from the corner
: gas station in jerry cans would handle this. It's one thing to send the
: state a fuel invoice from the FBO, it's another to send in a cash register
: receipt from the convenience mart.

That's exactly what I do. I've got a little spreadsheet that I key in the
gallons and total it up for them. I've sent in 100 receipts for 6-18 gallons apiece
totalling a few hundred gallons. They don't even have to add up the receipts (for
which I'm sure they're grateful).

Oh, and WRT filling with jerry cans, there's one more thing. There's always a
slight bit of crud in autofuel (trace water, particles, etc). I used to worry about
that in the airplane. Now I rigged up a spin-on water-absorbing filter in the spout
of the gas cans I fill from. Fuel is clean and dry.

: Would it make any difference to anyone if you knew that the tax was going
: into the Airport & Airways Fund instead of the state highway fund?

I don't gripe at all about the extra nickels' worth of airport tax I don't get
back on the airplane-autofuel.

I worry a
: little about that now that the airlines are arguing that the reason that
: they're all hemorraging money is because General Aviation isn't paying for
: 100% of the cost of ATC--which was mandated by the airlines.

This is (of course) completely B.S. that I've been reading about for awhile.
Funny how they can actually feel it's a credible argument. ATC wouldn't need to exist
if it weren't for commerical operations.

-Cory


--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Dave S]

Thanks for the point out, John... I need to do some homework (I havent
read the links just yet).. but I may have gone off half cocked with
regards to the entire tax load being refundable/deductible.

I intend to look into this and see what I can come up with. The
fuel/fleet card vendors on a national level (Fuelman and
Chevron/Texaco.. the likely sources nearby me) were not very helpful and
in their case the deductions that I spoke of appear to be directly
related to the previous account I set up being a "fire dept" which was a
quasigovernmental agency..

Anyways.. I am going to do some research and get back to you guys.

Dave

John Clonts wrote:
> "Dave S" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>
>>The folks here who are running autogas.. I have a question for you.
>>
>>Preface: When I was tasked by my volunteer fire department 10 years ago
>>to stamp out fuel credit card abuse and fraud, I secured the services of
>>a certain brand's fleet card system. The sales vendor who set up our
>>account told me that any of our OFF ROAD engines were eligible to be
>>billed free of the state and federal highway fuel taxes. In the fire
>>dept's case this was for generators and free standing pumps.. but our
>>"off road" gasoline useage was so light that it wasnt even worth the
>
> hassle.
>
>>So.. Since aircraft (with the exception of Mr Moller's wannabe Skycar
>>and a few others) are not considered licensed motor vehicles for the
>>purpose of the fuel taxes, do you guys make an effort to obtain fuel
>>with a special account that gives credit for these taxes? In Texas the
>>amount is 38.5 cents/gal and over a year or so that can add up to real
>>money (especially in light of the discounted price of autogas compared
>>to 100LL)
>>
>>I'm presuming some method of accounting would be needed in the event of
>>an audit.. but just wanted to see if 1) anyone else was aware of this 2)
>>does it still exist and 3) does anyone do it?
>>
>>I figured Jay Honeck would be a perfect example of someone who could do
>>this, since he has his Mighty Grape (TM) fuel shuttlemobile. If the
>>Texas rates apply I would guess this could drop Atlas's operating costs
>>by $4-$6 per hour (40 cents x 10-15 GPH). Fillup of the Grape's 60 gal
>>tank would be about $23-$24 cheaper. Every little bit helps.
>>
>>I was planning on contacting Fuelman/Rushce about their fuelcard setup
>>but havent gotten to it just yet (many months out from flying the
>>Velocity with auto conversion)...
>>
>>So.. anyone have input, feedback, comment?
>>Dave
>
>
>
> Hello Dave,
>
> For Texas:
>
> http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/TX/content/htm/tx.002.00.000162.00.htm
>
> look at paragraph "162.125 (c) 4"
>
> http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/taxforms/06-forms.html
>
> under "refunds"
>
> Note, I have no experience with this, but it does sound pretty interesting!
>
> Cheers,
> John Clonts
> Temple, Texas
> N7NZ
>
>

[Dave S]

John... I think I got the thread pasted onto the wrong reply by another
person.. but I think everyone can follow it.



Ok.. this is TEXAS specific information.. but the STATE tax of $0.20/gal
appears to be 100% refundable.

<paste>
excepts Sec. 153.104. Exceptions and Sec. 153.119 Refunds

Gasoline delivered to a permitted aviation fuel dealer and solely for
use in aircraft and aircraft servicing equipment is excluded from
taxation. Likewise, gasoline sold from one aviation fuel dealer to
another aviation fuel dealer is not subject to tax. Taxes paid on
gasoline for aircraft and aircraft servicing equipment uses are subject
to refund.
<Snip>

the LAST sentence is the key. So.. that right there is a significant
amount of $$ that in Texas appears to be refundable.

Next step is to look at the IRS and see if any of the federal portion is
refundable.

Dave


Dave S wrote:

> Thanks for the point out, John... I need to do some homework (I havent
> read the links just yet).. but I may have gone off half cocked with
> regards to the entire tax load being refundable/deductible.
>
> I intend to look into this and see what I can come up with. The
> fuel/fleet card vendors on a national level (Fuelman and
> Chevron/Texaco.. the likely sources nearby me) were not very helpful and
> in their case the deductions that I spoke of appear to be directly
> related to the previous account I set up being a "fire dept" which was a
> quasigovernmental agency..
>
> Anyways.. I am going to do some research and get back to you guys.
>
> Dave
>
> John Clonts wrote:
>
>> "Dave S" > wrote in message
>> nk.net...
>>
>>> The folks here who are running autogas.. I have a question for you.
>>>
>>> Preface: When I was tasked by my volunteer fire department 10 years ago
>>> to stamp out fuel credit card abuse and fraud, I secured the services of
>>> a certain brand's fleet card system. The sales vendor who set up our
>>> account told me that any of our OFF ROAD engines were eligible to be
>>> billed free of the state and federal highway fuel taxes. In the fire
>>> dept's case this was for generators and free standing pumps.. but our
>>> "off road" gasoline useage was so light that it wasnt even worth the
>>
>>
>> hassle.
>>
>>> So.. Since aircraft (with the exception of Mr Moller's wannabe Skycar
>>> and a few others) are not considered licensed motor vehicles for the
>>> purpose of the fuel taxes, do you guys make an effort to obtain fuel
>>> with a special account that gives credit for these taxes? In Texas the
>>> amount is 38.5 cents/gal and over a year or so that can add up to real
>>> money (especially in light of the discounted price of autogas compared
>>> to 100LL)
>>>
>>> I'm presuming some method of accounting would be needed in the event of
>>> an audit.. but just wanted to see if 1) anyone else was aware of this 2)
>>> does it still exist and 3) does anyone do it?
>>>
>>> I figured Jay Honeck would be a perfect example of someone who could do
>>> this, since he has his Mighty Grape (TM) fuel shuttlemobile. If the
>>> Texas rates apply I would guess this could drop Atlas's operating costs
>>> by $4-$6 per hour (40 cents x 10-15 GPH). Fillup of the Grape's 60 gal
>>> tank would be about $23-$24 cheaper. Every little bit helps.
>>>
>>> I was planning on contacting Fuelman/Rushce about their fuelcard setup
>>> but havent gotten to it just yet (many months out from flying the
>>> Velocity with auto conversion)...
>>>
>>> So.. anyone have input, feedback, comment?
>>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello Dave,
>>
>> For Texas:
>>
>> http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/TX/content/htm/tx.002.00.000162.00.htm
>>
>>
>> look at paragraph "162.125 (c) 4"
>>
>> http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/taxforms/06-forms.html
>>
>> under "refunds"
>>
>> Note, I have no experience with this, but it does sound pretty
>> interesting!
>>
>> Cheers,
>> John Clonts
>> Temple, Texas
>> N7NZ
>>
>>
>

[Dave S]

OK...

The federal excise tax ($0.184/gal) is not as easily deducted. In this
instance for PERSONAL use it does not appear to be deductible

There are a few possibilities that exempt certain aviation and non
aviation uses of AVIATION GASOLINE (as defined by its ASTM or Mil Spec)..

There is one possibility for the BUSINESS use in an off road
application. I wonder if a flight school running aircraft with a mogas
STC can utilize this deduction for automobile gasoline. I am not going
to speculate on this since I have no way to benefit from it. Good
question for the taxman.

Applicable link at:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p378.pdf

Dave




Dave S wrote:

> John... I think I got the thread pasted onto the wrong reply by another
> person.. but I think everyone can follow it.
>
>
>
> Ok.. this is TEXAS specific information.. but the STATE tax of $0.20/gal
> appears to be 100% refundable.
>
> <paste>
> excepts Sec. 153.104. Exceptions and Sec. 153.119 Refunds
>
> Gasoline delivered to a permitted aviation fuel dealer and solely for
> use in aircraft and aircraft servicing equipment is excluded from
> taxation. Likewise, gasoline sold from one aviation fuel dealer to
> another aviation fuel dealer is not subject to tax. Taxes paid on
> gasoline for aircraft and aircraft servicing equipment uses are subject
> to refund.
> <Snip>
>
> the LAST sentence is the key. So.. that right there is a significant
> amount of $$ that in Texas appears to be refundable.
>
> Next step is to look at the IRS and see if any of the federal portion is
> refundable.
>
> Dave
>
>
> Dave S wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the point out, John... I need to do some homework (I havent
>> read the links just yet).. but I may have gone off half cocked with
>> regards to the entire tax load being refundable/deductible.
>>
>> I intend to look into this and see what I can come up with. The
>> fuel/fleet card vendors on a national level (Fuelman and
>> Chevron/Texaco.. the likely sources nearby me) were not very helpful
>> and in their case the deductions that I spoke of appear to be directly
>> related to the previous account I set up being a "fire dept" which was
>> a quasigovernmental agency..
>>
>> Anyways.. I am going to do some research and get back to you guys.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> John Clonts wrote:
>>
>>> "Dave S" > wrote in message
>>> nk.net...
>>>
>>>> The folks here who are running autogas.. I have a question for you.
>>>>
>>>> Preface: When I was tasked by my volunteer fire department 10 years ago
>>>> to stamp out fuel credit card abuse and fraud, I secured the
>>>> services of
>>>> a certain brand's fleet card system. The sales vendor who set up our
>>>> account told me that any of our OFF ROAD engines were eligible to be
>>>> billed free of the state and federal highway fuel taxes. In the fire
>>>> dept's case this was for generators and free standing pumps.. but our
>>>> "off road" gasoline useage was so light that it wasnt even worth the
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> hassle.
>>>
>>>> So.. Since aircraft (with the exception of Mr Moller's wannabe Skycar
>>>> and a few others) are not considered licensed motor vehicles for the
>>>> purpose of the fuel taxes, do you guys make an effort to obtain fuel
>>>> with a special account that gives credit for these taxes? In Texas the
>>>> amount is 38.5 cents/gal and over a year or so that can add up to real
>>>> money (especially in light of the discounted price of autogas compared
>>>> to 100LL)
>>>>
>>>> I'm presuming some method of accounting would be needed in the event of
>>>> an audit.. but just wanted to see if 1) anyone else was aware of
>>>> this 2)
>>>> does it still exist and 3) does anyone do it?
>>>>
>>>> I figured Jay Honeck would be a perfect example of someone who could do
>>>> this, since he has his Mighty Grape (TM) fuel shuttlemobile. If the
>>>> Texas rates apply I would guess this could drop Atlas's operating costs
>>>> by $4-$6 per hour (40 cents x 10-15 GPH). Fillup of the Grape's 60 gal
>>>> tank would be about $23-$24 cheaper. Every little bit helps.
>>>>
>>>> I was planning on contacting Fuelman/Rushce about their fuelcard setup
>>>> but havent gotten to it just yet (many months out from flying the
>>>> Velocity with auto conversion)...
>>>>
>>>> So.. anyone have input, feedback, comment?
>>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello Dave,
>>>
>>> For Texas:
>>>
>>> http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/TX/content/htm/tx.002.00.000162.00.htm
>>>
>>>
>>> look at paragraph "162.125 (c) 4"
>>>
>>> http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/taxforms/06-forms.html
>>>
>>> under "refunds"
>>>
>>> Note, I have no experience with this, but it does sound pretty
>>> interesting!
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> John Clonts
>>> Temple, Texas
>>> N7NZ
>>>
>>>
>>
>

[TripFarmer]

Call your State Dept. of Revenue and ask them outright. That's the only
way you'll get a 100% answer.


Trip

In article .net>, says...
>
>John... I think I got the thread pasted onto the wrong reply by another
>person.. but I think everyone can follow it.
>
>
>
>Ok.. this is TEXAS specific information.. but the STATE tax of $0.20/gal
>appears to be 100% refundable.
>
><paste>
>excepts Sec. 153.104. Exceptions and Sec. 153.119 Refunds
>
> Gasoline delivered to a permitted aviation fuel dealer and solely for
>use in aircraft and aircraft servicing equipment is excluded from
>taxation. Likewise, gasoline sold from one aviation fuel dealer to
>another aviation fuel dealer is not subject to tax. Taxes paid on
>gasoline for aircraft and aircraft servicing equipment uses are subject
>to refund.
><Snip>
>
>the LAST sentence is the key. So.. that right there is a significant
>amount of $$ that in Texas appears to be refundable.
>
>Next step is to look at the IRS and see if any of the federal portion is
>refundable.
>
>Dave
>
>
>Dave S wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the point out, John... I need to do some homework (I havent
>> read the links just yet).. but I may have gone off half cocked with
>> regards to the entire tax load being refundable/deductible.
>>
>> I intend to look into this and see what I can come up with. The
>> fuel/fleet card vendors on a national level (Fuelman and
>> Chevron/Texaco.. the likely sources nearby me) were not very helpful and
>> in their case the deductions that I spoke of appear to be directly
>> related to the previous account I set up being a "fire dept" which was a
>> quasigovernmental agency..
>>
>> Anyways.. I am going to do some research and get back to you guys.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> John Clonts wrote:
>>
>>> "Dave S" > wrote in message
>>> nk.net...
>>>
>>>> The folks here who are running autogas.. I have a question for you.
>>>>
>>>> Preface: When I was tasked by my volunteer fire department 10 years ago
>>>> to stamp out fuel credit card abuse and fraud, I secured the services of
>>>> a certain brand's fleet card system. The sales vendor who set up our
>>>> account told me that any of our OFF ROAD engines were eligible to be
>>>> billed free of the state and federal highway fuel taxes. In the fire
>>>> dept's case this was for generators and free standing pumps.. but our
>>>> "off road" gasoline useage was so light that it wasnt even worth the
>>>
>>>
>>> hassle.
>>>
>>>> So.. Since aircraft (with the exception of Mr Moller's wannabe Skycar
>>>> and a few others) are not considered licensed motor vehicles for the
>>>> purpose of the fuel taxes, do you guys make an effort to obtain fuel
>>>> with a special account that gives credit for these taxes? In Texas the
>>>> amount is 38.5 cents/gal and over a year or so that can add up to real
>>>> money (especially in light of the discounted price of autogas compared
>>>> to 100LL)
>>>>
>>>> I'm presuming some method of accounting would be needed in the event of
>>>> an audit.. but just wanted to see if 1) anyone else was aware of this 2)
>>>> does it still exist and 3) does anyone do it?
>>>>
>>>> I figured Jay Honeck would be a perfect example of someone who could do
>>>> this, since he has his Mighty Grape (TM) fuel shuttlemobile. If the
>>>> Texas rates apply I would guess this could drop Atlas's operating costs
>>>> by $4-$6 per hour (40 cents x 10-15 GPH). Fillup of the Grape's 60 gal
>>>> tank would be about $23-$24 cheaper. Every little bit helps.
>>>>
>>>> I was planning on contacting Fuelman/Rushce about their fuelcard setup
>>>> but havent gotten to it just yet (many months out from flying the
>>>> Velocity with auto conversion)...
>>>>
>>>> So.. anyone have input, feedback, comment?
>>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello Dave,
>>>
>>> For Texas:
>>>
>>> http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/TX/content/htm/tx.002.00.000162.
>00.htm
>>>
>>>
>>> look at paragraph "162.125 (c) 4"
>>>
>>> http://www.window.state.tx.us/taxinfo/taxforms/06-forms.html
>>>
>>> under "refunds"
>>>
>>> Note, I have no experience with this, but it does sound pretty
>>> interesting!
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> John Clonts
>>> Temple, Texas
>>> N7NZ
>>>
>>>
>>
>

[John Galban]

wrote in message >...
> RKHenry > wrote:
>
> I worry a
> : little about that now that the airlines are arguing that the reason that
> : they're all hemorraging money is because General Aviation isn't paying for
> : 100% of the cost of ATC--which was mandated by the airlines.
>
> This is (of course) completely B.S. that I've been reading about for awhile.
> Funny how they can actually feel it's a credible argument. ATC wouldn't need to exist
> if it weren't for commerical operations.
>

I don't believe that commercial airlines feel that it is a credible
argument. I do believe that they feel it's a plausable, defendable
argument in the court of (uninformed) public opinion. Remember, in
that arena, you don't have to be logical, you just have to look
logical.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Brant Hohnstein]

Here is the link to the information about gas tax refund for aviation in
Colorado:

http://www.revenue.state.co.us/fyi/pdf/excise07.pdf

Looks doable especially for FBO owners.

[N7155A]

Dave,
I've recieved road tax refunds from Oklahoma over the last 3 years.
They have a form to fill out which lists all non-road purchases, and
gives 15.9 cents/gal refund. I have to keep all my receipts for 5
years. I opened a bulk account at the local gas station, dedicated to
airplane fuel purchases. They send me a bill at the end of the month,
so all I have to keep is the monthly invoices. About every 6 months
I'll apply for the refund. Jan-Jun-04 was 1236 gal, and $195 refund.

I haven't pursued Federal refunds.

mitch
Chickasha Wings Inc
http://groups.yahoo.group/n10681/




Dave S > wrote in message t>...
> The folks here who are running autogas.. I have a question for you.
>
> Preface: When I was tasked by my volunteer fire department 10 years ago
> to stamp out fuel credit card abuse and fraud, I secured the services of
> a certain brand's fleet card system. The sales vendor who set up our
> account told me that any of our OFF ROAD engines were eligible to be
> billed free of the state and federal highway fuel taxes. In the fire
> dept's case this was for generators and free standing pumps.. but our
> "off road" gasoline useage was so light that it wasnt even worth the hassle.
>
> So.. Since aircraft (with the exception of Mr Moller's wannabe Skycar
> and a few others) are not considered licensed motor vehicles for the
> purpose of the fuel taxes, do you guys make an effort to obtain fuel
> with a special account that gives credit for these taxes? In Texas the
> amount is 38.5 cents/gal and over a year or so that can add up to real
> money (especially in light of the discounted price of autogas compared
> to 100LL)
>
> I'm presuming some method of accounting would be needed in the event of
> an audit.. but just wanted to see if 1) anyone else was aware of this 2)
> does it still exist and 3) does anyone do it?
>
> I figured Jay Honeck would be a perfect example of someone who could do
> this, since he has his Mighty Grape (TM) fuel shuttlemobile. If the
> Texas rates apply I would guess this could drop Atlas's operating costs
> by $4-$6 per hour (40 cents x 10-15 GPH). Fillup of the Grape's 60 gal
> tank would be about $23-$24 cheaper. Every little bit helps.
>
> I was planning on contacting Fuelman/Rushce about their fuelcard setup
> but havent gotten to it just yet (many months out from flying the
> Velocity with auto conversion)...
>
> So.. anyone have input, feedback, comment?
> Dave

[Dave S]

Thanks for your insight...

After looking at the Federal side of it.. it does not appear that part
91 personal flights (that are not associated with museum pieces) are
able to be exempted/refunded with regards to the federal gasoline tax.

I posted a link to the document that gave me that impression elsewhere
in this thread.

Dave

N7155A wrote:

> Dave,
> I've recieved road tax refunds from Oklahoma over the last 3 years.
> They have a form to fill out which lists all non-road purchases, and
> gives 15.9 cents/gal refund. I have to keep all my receipts for 5
> years. I opened a bulk account at the local gas station, dedicated to
> airplane fuel purchases. They send me a bill at the end of the month,
> so all I have to keep is the monthly invoices. About every 6 months
> I'll apply for the refund. Jan-Jun-04 was 1236 gal, and $195 refund.
>
> I haven't pursued Federal refunds.
>
> mitch
> Chickasha Wings Inc
> http://groups.yahoo.group/n10681/
>
>
>
>
> Dave S > wrote in message t>...
>
>>The folks here who are running autogas.. I have a question for you.
>>
>>Preface: When I was tasked by my volunteer fire department 10 years ago
>>to stamp out fuel credit card abuse and fraud, I secured the services of
>>a certain brand's fleet card system. The sales vendor who set up our
>>account told me that any of our OFF ROAD engines were eligible to be
>>billed free of the state and federal highway fuel taxes. In the fire
>>dept's case this was for generators and free standing pumps.. but our
>>"off road" gasoline useage was so light that it wasnt even worth the hassle.
>>
>>So.. Since aircraft (with the exception of Mr Moller's wannabe Skycar
>>and a few others) are not considered licensed motor vehicles for the
>>purpose of the fuel taxes, do you guys make an effort to obtain fuel
>>with a special account that gives credit for these taxes? In Texas the
>>amount is 38.5 cents/gal and over a year or so that can add up to real
>>money (especially in light of the discounted price of autogas compared
>>to 100LL)
>>
>>I'm presuming some method of accounting would be needed in the event of
>>an audit.. but just wanted to see if 1) anyone else was aware of this 2)
>>does it still exist and 3) does anyone do it?
>>
>>I figured Jay Honeck would be a perfect example of someone who could do
>>this, since he has his Mighty Grape (TM) fuel shuttlemobile. If the
>>Texas rates apply I would guess this could drop Atlas's operating costs
>>by $4-$6 per hour (40 cents x 10-15 GPH). Fillup of the Grape's 60 gal
>>tank would be about $23-$24 cheaper. Every little bit helps.
>>
>>I was planning on contacting Fuelman/Rushce about their fuelcard setup
>>but havent gotten to it just yet (many months out from flying the
>>Velocity with auto conversion)...
>>
>>So.. anyone have input, feedback, comment?
>>Dave

[G.R. Patterson III]

N7155A wrote:
>
> I haven't pursued Federal refunds.

I checked into it and found that they're limited to flights made for charitable
purposes.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[brizock]

Great question!
I decided I'd go see whether my state offered this or not. After emailing
the IL Dept of Rev through their website I got a "not to my knowledge"
answer.
That wasn't good enough. I gave them a call and got the good news!
Illinois offers the refund!
For all of you IL pilots, here's the link to the refund form:
http://www.revenue.state.il.us/taxforms/misc/mft/Rmft11a.pdf

I just started reading this newsgroup 3 days ago, just bought my first plane
a week ago, and already I've gotten great info from all who post.
Thanks a ton everybody!


"Dave S" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> The folks here who are running autogas.. I have a question for you.
>
> Preface: When I was tasked by my volunteer fire department 10 years ago to
> stamp out fuel credit card abuse and fraud, I secured the services of a
> certain brand's fleet card system. The sales vendor who set up our account
> told me that any of our OFF ROAD engines were eligible to be billed free
> of the state and federal highway fuel taxes. In the fire dept's case this
> was for generators and free standing pumps.. but our "off road" gasoline
> useage was so light that it wasnt even worth the hassle.
>
> So.. Since aircraft (with the exception of Mr Moller's wannabe Skycar and
> a few others) are not considered licensed motor vehicles for the purpose
> of the fuel taxes, do you guys make an effort to obtain fuel with a
> special account that gives credit for these taxes? In Texas the amount is
> 38.5 cents/gal and over a year or so that can add up to real money
> (especially in light of the discounted price of autogas compared to 100LL)
>
> I'm presuming some method of accounting would be needed in the event of an
> audit.. but just wanted to see if 1) anyone else was aware of this 2) does
> it still exist and 3) does anyone do it?
>
> I figured Jay Honeck would be a perfect example of someone who could do
> this, since he has his Mighty Grape (TM) fuel shuttlemobile. If the Texas
> rates apply I would guess this could drop Atlas's operating costs by $4-$6
> per hour (40 cents x 10-15 GPH). Fillup of the Grape's 60 gal tank would
> be about $23-$24 cheaper. Every little bit helps.
>
> I was planning on contacting Fuelman/Rushce about their fuelcard setup but
> havent gotten to it just yet (many months out from flying the Velocity
> with auto conversion)...
>
> So.. anyone have input, feedback, comment?
> Dave
>

[Bart D. Hull]

Y'all

Just be careful that your plane behaves well with autogas and know its
limitations. We've had auto conversion Soobs with full return loop EFI's
get vapor lock being sold "Winter" blend auto gas in the summer months.
A vapor pressure tester verified this post mortem (Of the airplane, not
the pilot.) In at least two cases we know of the airplane was wrecked
due to vapor lock from using auto gas and that definitely didn't save
them any money. And if you have capacitance probes that were calibrated
for AV-Gas it doesn't show the correct amount of fuel.

Just keep yer eyes open and fly safe.

Thanks

Bart
--
Bart D. Hull

Tempe, Arizona

Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/engine.html
for my Subaru Engine Conversion
Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/fuselage.html
for Tango II I'm building.

Remove -nospam to reply via email.

brizock wrote:
> Great question!
> I decided I'd go see whether my state offered this or not. After emailing
> the IL Dept of Rev through their website I got a "not to my knowledge"
> answer.
> That wasn't good enough. I gave them a call and got the good news!
> Illinois offers the refund!
> For all of you IL pilots, here's the link to the refund form:
> http://www.revenue.state.il.us/taxforms/misc/mft/Rmft11a.pdf
>
> I just started reading this newsgroup 3 days ago, just bought my first plane
> a week ago, and already I've gotten great info from all who post.
> Thanks a ton everybody!
>
>
> "Dave S" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>
>>The folks here who are running autogas.. I have a question for you.
>>
>>Preface: When I was tasked by my volunteer fire department 10 years ago to
>>stamp out fuel credit card abuse and fraud, I secured the services of a
>>certain brand's fleet card system. The sales vendor who set up our account
>>told me that any of our OFF ROAD engines were eligible to be billed free
>>of the state and federal highway fuel taxes. In the fire dept's case this
>>was for generators and free standing pumps.. but our "off road" gasoline
>>useage was so light that it wasnt even worth the hassle.
>>
>>So.. Since aircraft (with the exception of Mr Moller's wannabe Skycar and
>>a few others) are not considered licensed motor vehicles for the purpose
>>of the fuel taxes, do you guys make an effort to obtain fuel with a
>>special account that gives credit for these taxes? In Texas the amount is
>>38.5 cents/gal and over a year or so that can add up to real money
>>(especially in light of the discounted price of autogas compared to 100LL)
>>
>>I'm presuming some method of accounting would be needed in the event of an
>>audit.. but just wanted to see if 1) anyone else was aware of this 2) does
>>it still exist and 3) does anyone do it?
>>
>>I figured Jay Honeck would be a perfect example of someone who could do
>>this, since he has his Mighty Grape (TM) fuel shuttlemobile. If the Texas
>>rates apply I would guess this could drop Atlas's operating costs by $4-$6
>>per hour (40 cents x 10-15 GPH). Fillup of the Grape's 60 gal tank would
>>be about $23-$24 cheaper. Every little bit helps.
>>
>>I was planning on contacting Fuelman/Rushce about their fuelcard setup but
>>havent gotten to it just yet (many months out from flying the Velocity
>>with auto conversion)...
>>
>>So.. anyone have input, feedback, comment?
>>Dave

[[email protected]]

Bart D. Hull > wrote:
: Just be careful that your plane behaves well with autogas and know its
: limitations. We've had auto conversion Soobs with full return loop EFI's
: get vapor lock being sold "Winter" blend auto gas in the summer months.
: A vapor pressure tester verified this post mortem (Of the airplane, not
: the pilot.) In at least two cases we know of the airplane was wrecked
: due to vapor lock from using auto gas and that definitely didn't save
: them any money. And if you have capacitance probes that were calibrated
: for AV-Gas it doesn't show the correct amount of fuel.

Yes... the usual caveats apply. I bought one of the "vapor pressure testers"
from Peterson when I got the autogas STC for my Cherokee. It's basically a syringe
with a vacuum gauge you can screw onto the end. Pull in 2cc's of fuel, screw on the
gauge, and pull it back to 10cc's on the plunger. The fuel will boil and equilibrate
on a vacuum reading.

It doesn't read RVP directly (many factors affect it like temperature, local
pressure, etc), but it will definately be good for comparison. I test mine once in
awhile (especially in the spring when it's warm and the autogas stations might have a
winter blend). I almost always see 1" difference between 100LL and 93 AKI here (2100'
MSL). "Safe" on the gauge is 6inHG. 100LL will show 8 winter, 7 summer. Cargas will
show 7 winter, 6 summer... on the border of "safe."

-Cory

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Jim Weir]

That doesn't happen to be true.

Jim




"Bart D. Hull" >
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

And if you have capacitance probes that were calibrated
->for AV-Gas it doesn't show the correct amount of fuel.


Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Bart D. Hull]

What if your autogas has alcohol or MTBE? Have you tried this
with probes on your plane?

The probes I have acquired have a slip of paper with them that
mentions how to calibrate the gauge to the probes and warns about
different fuel mixes showing different results.

--
Bart D. Hull

Tempe, Arizona

Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/engine.html
for my Subaru Engine Conversion
Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/fuselage.html
for Tango II I'm building.

Remove -nospam to reply via email.

Jim Weir wrote:
> That doesn't happen to be true.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
> "Bart D. Hull" >
> shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:
>
> And if you have capacitance probes that were calibrated
> ->for AV-Gas it doesn't show the correct amount of fuel.
>
>
> Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
> VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
> http://www.rst-engr.com

[Jim Weir]

Well, of COURSE, you stupid idiot. If the autogas has alcohol in it, it will
read different. But you KNEW that didn't you, and you knew that gasahol isn't
approved for aircraft engines.

Just for you to research. What is the difference in dielectric constant (you do
know what that means, don't you) from pure gasoline to MTBE?

Jim




"Bart D. Hull" >
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->What if your autogas has alcohol or MTBE? Have you tried this
->with probes on your plane?
->
->The probes I have acquired have a slip of paper with them that
->mentions how to calibrate the gauge to the probes and warns about
->different fuel mixes showing different results.


Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[jls]

"Jim Weir" > wrote in message
...
> Well, of COURSE, you stupid idiot.

I am going to have to call you down for being redundant. Redundancy is OK
for airplanes but not English.

[Robert M. Gary]

Dave S > wrote in message t>...
> The folks here who are running autogas.. I have a question for you.

Are there many places where autogas is still legal? I live near
Sacramento and our auto gas contains additives that the FAA prohibits
under all autogas STCs.

-Robert

[[email protected]]

Robert M. Gary > wrote:
: Are there many places where autogas is still legal? I live near
: Sacramento and our auto gas contains additives that the FAA prohibits
: under all autogas STCs.

: -Robert

There are some places, but they seem to be getting fewer and farther between.
Soon it'll probably have to be wholesale and get it direct.

I *STILL* don't know how Jay Honeck can find pure gasoline smack dab in the
middle of the corn belt. (I grew up in Dubuque)... :)

-Cory
--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Jay Honeck]

> I *STILL* don't know how Jay Honeck can find pure gasoline smack dab in
> the
> middle of the corn belt. (I grew up in Dubuque)... :)

Strangely enough, it's everywhere.

There isn't a single gas station in our area that DOESN'T sell regular
unleaded gas alongside the ethanol and "super" unleaded.

Thanks goodness. I'd be flying 1/3 less, were it not for the mogas savings.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[John Galban]

(Robert M. Gary) wrote in message >...
>
> Are there many places where autogas is still legal? I live near
> Sacramento and our auto gas contains additives that the FAA prohibits
> under all autogas STCs.
>
The only "additive" that is prohibited (that I've heard of) is
alcohol. Alcohol-free gasoline is available in large parts of the
country. Most metropolitan areas used either alcohol or MTBE as an
oxygenate (here in PHX we used both), but MTBE has been getting phased
out over the past few years and it will soon be alcohol only. Still,
outside of metro areas, there should be plenty of unadulterated
autogas.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[G.R. Patterson III]

John Galban wrote:
>
> Still,
> outside of metro areas, there should be plenty of unadulterated
> autogas.

I'm still burning avgas, but, in my case, I'd have to burn half a tank of fuel to
find mogas without additives. The entire State is required to sell it. Probably
Maryland would be the closest source.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[[email protected]]

In Minnesota it is still legal to sell pure gasoline at Marinas and at
airports. Some of the more major filling stations have a premium
unleaded for off road engines etc. I use FBOs mostly.