$400,000 for VFR only

[Chris]

This link is interesting.

http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=11635

The story is that in the UK and most of Europe the all glass Cirrus
including the 22 is only suitable for VFR flights only.

Whilst the GPS may be IFR certified in the US, Its not in the UK. also with
DME and ADF it only possible to fly 4 instrument approaches legally in the
UK.

Retrofitting DME and ADF is sure going to spoil a pretty panel.

Maybe Cirrus will have to work out a way around to allow its aircraft to fly
IFR in IMC.

Its a shame really because there are lots of potential Cirrus owners in the
UK and with the depreciation of the dollar effectively paying for the VAT on
import they are could be a good buy.

Its a pretty expensive plane to have sports plane privileges only

cb

[C J Campbell]

"Chris" > wrote in message
...
> This link is interesting.
>
> http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=11635
>
> The story is that in the UK and most of Europe the all glass Cirrus
> including the 22 is only suitable for VFR flights only.

Too bad. The reason, of course, is that Europe would rather remain in the
last century rather than open their markets to real competition.

They view laws against unfair trade practices as a weapon to suppress free
trade instead of a tool to encourage it.

[[email protected]]

Well, that is not the reason.
As I recall right the Cirrus aircraft are not JAA approved as a whole.
If I remember well it has something to do with the stall tests.

And the same works the other way, if a part or plane is JAA approved it
is not automatically FAA approved so no change of using it in the US.

And this is not only related to aircraft(parts).
Buy a used or classic car in the US and try to have it legaly road
going here you have to change at least the seat belts and head- and
tail lights to CE standards.
And then you are lucky, wait if something enviromental pops up :-(
Export a car to the US and you have the same trouble again.

And there are more regions in the world with their own standards and
rules.
It sometimes drives one mad.

-Kees

[Thomas Borchert]

Chris,

> The story is that in the UK and most of Europe the all glass Cirrus
> including the 22 is only suitable for VFR flights only.
>

Uhm, helloooo? Did you actually READ the thread?

The story is that there is a RUMOUR this might the case. There is not
much to the rumour, though.

In JAA space, AFAIK, an ADF is only required for aircraft in which IFR
training is taking place. A DME is required for IFR and for many
approaches here, since replacement of DME by GPS is not as advanced as
it is in the US. Mayn Cirrii (?) are delivered to Europe with an
additional DME unit (remote controlled, AFAIK).

BUT: The equipment requirements only hold for JAA-registered aircraft -
and of course for all aircraft using approaches requiring them. So, a
standard US-registered Cirrus in Europe will not be able to use all
approaches in Europe. That's it.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Chris]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> Chris,
>
>> The story is that in the UK and most of Europe the all glass Cirrus
>> including the 22 is only suitable for VFR flights only.
>>
>
> Uhm, helloooo? Did you actually READ the thread?
>
> The story is that there is a RUMOUR this might the case. There is not
> much to the rumour, though.
>
> In JAA space, AFAIK, an ADF is only required for aircraft in which IFR
> training is taking place. A DME is required for IFR and for many
> approaches here, since replacement of DME by GPS is not as advanced as
> it is in the US. Mayn Cirrii (?) are delivered to Europe with an
> additional DME unit (remote controlled, AFAIK).
>
> BUT: The equipment requirements only hold for JAA-registered aircraft -
> and of course for all aircraft using approaches requiring them. So, a
> standard US-registered Cirrus in Europe will not be able to use all
> approaches in Europe. That's it.
>

The GPS is not certified for IFR in CAS flight which means in the UK at
least most controlled airspace s most of it is Class A which is IFR only.
The lack of ADF and DME does limit the use on approaches.

The rumour also pertains to a US registered Cirrus too.

[Thomas Borchert]

> As I recall right the Cirrus aircraft are not JAA approved as a whole.
>

The SR20 is, AFAIK.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[[email protected]]

Oops, didn't do my homework.
-Kees

[Chris]

"Chris" > wrote in message
...

Further information on this issue

A standard-fit Cirrus cannot fly en-route under IFR in controlled airspace
in the UK This is not just Airways, but all controlled airspace A - E
according to the Air Navigation Order.

When it is time for approach and landing a Cirrus cannot use any pilot
interpreted procedural instrument approach other than a VOR based on timing,
because to substitute GPS for any element of the approach is not approved by
the CAA according to AIC 93/3 2002 and to do so would render the pilot
liable to at least the risk of being prosecuted for endangerment (Art 63 and
64 of the ANO) and there is the not-inconsiderable risk of voiding the
insurance.

In the UK, a Cirrus can only fly IFR outside all controlled airspace, and
make a procedural instrument approach under IFR at those VOR facilities
whose procedures are based on timing, which also at the same time happen to
be outside all controlled airspace.

There only seems to be two of these - Benbecula and Cranfield!

The situation is hardly better abroad. Each European country has different
variations of the en-route rules, some will allow GPS. But the situation
with regard to approaches is very similar.

In France for example the French R.C.A. 2.2.1.3. Makes it very clear that an
aircraft under IFR on Departure, Arrival, Holding and Instrument Approach
procedures must carry the equipment necessary to follow the type of approach
being used. So, even if the aircraft can fly IFR in French airways, it is
not legal to use an instrument approach procedure which, for example,
contains an NDB unless the aircraft carries an ADF.

[The UK Air Navigation order:

Schedule 5
Radio and radio navigation equipment to be carried in aircraft

Paragraph 2
(1) All aircraft (other than gliders) within the United Kingdom:
(a) when flying under Instrument Flight Rules within controlled airspace:

Radio and radio navigation equipment capable of enabling the aircraft to be
navigated along the intended route including:

(i) automatic direction finding equipment;
(ii) distance measuring equipment; and
(iii) VHF omni-range equipment.


129 Interpretation:

'Controlled airspace' means airspace which has been notified as Class A,
Class B, Class C, Class D or Class E airspace; .]

[AIC 93/2002

3.3.3. The CAA is aware that some existing instrument approach procedures
based on conventional navigation aids are provided in many GPS receiver
databases. These are generally known as 'overlay' procedures and provide a
general prepresentation of the conventional approach. These 'overlay'
procedures may contain a disparity from the notified instrument approach
procedures and may not assure adequate obstacle clearance. The use of these
GPS 'overlay' procedures is not authorised by the CAA. ]

A right old mess!

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "C J Campbell" > said:
>> The story is that in the UK and most of Europe the all glass Cirrus
>> including the 22 is only suitable for VFR flights only.
>
>Too bad. The reason, of course, is that Europe would rather remain in the
>last century rather than open their markets to real competition.
>
>They view laws against unfair trade practices as a weapon to suppress free
>trade instead of a tool to encourage it.

Why is it that if the JAA refuses to IFR certify a plane that the FAA IFR
certifes, like this all-glass Cirrus, it's "unfair trade practices", but
if the FAA refuses to IFR certify a plane that the JAA *does* certify for
IFR flight, like the Diamond DA-20, it's just "the FAA doesn't have to
take orders from those damn Europeans"?


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education."
-- Albert Einstein.

[C J Campbell]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, "C J Campbell"
> said:
> >> The story is that in the UK and most of Europe the all glass Cirrus
> >> including the 22 is only suitable for VFR flights only.
> >
> >Too bad. The reason, of course, is that Europe would rather remain in the
> >last century rather than open their markets to real competition.
> >
> >They view laws against unfair trade practices as a weapon to suppress
free
> >trade instead of a tool to encourage it.
>
> Why is it that if the JAA refuses to IFR certify a plane that the FAA IFR
> certifes, like this all-glass Cirrus, it's "unfair trade practices", but
> if the FAA refuses to IFR certify a plane that the JAA *does* certify for
> IFR flight, like the Diamond DA-20, it's just "the FAA doesn't have to
> take orders from those damn Europeans"?

No, I think that at root you will still find people trying to stifle
competition with unfair trade practices. I am equally dismayed by the
behavior of the United States in this area.

[Chris]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, "C J Campbell"
> > said:
>>> The story is that in the UK and most of Europe the all glass Cirrus
>>> including the 22 is only suitable for VFR flights only.
>>
>>Too bad. The reason, of course, is that Europe would rather remain in the
>>last century rather than open their markets to real competition.
>>
>>They view laws against unfair trade practices as a weapon to suppress free
>>trade instead of a tool to encourage it.
>
> Why is it that if the JAA refuses to IFR certify a plane that the FAA IFR
> certifes, like this all-glass Cirrus, it's "unfair trade practices", but
> if the FAA refuses to IFR certify a plane that the JAA *does* certify for
> IFR flight, like the Diamond DA-20, it's just "the FAA doesn't have to
> take orders from those damn Europeans"?

Its mainly about the use of GPS and the lack of appropriate radio nav
instruments for the approaches in Europe. Unlike in the US, ADF and DME is
widely used for instrument approaches and GPS is not allowed as a substitute
because GPS is not certified for IFR. It is only allowed as a supporting aid
so the big fancy 480s and 530s are as much value as a handheld.
Planes made in Europe and certified for IFR flight in Europe will meet US
requirements.

I suppose one of the issues is that VORs, DME and ADF are all controllable
locally, GPS is not.

If the FAA want to allow reliance on a system controlled by the US military
then is it up to them, you cannot expect other countries aviation
authorities to put their reliance on a system controlled by a foreign power.

[Thomas Borchert]

Paul,

> Why is it that if the JAA refuses to IFR certify a plane that the FAA IFR
> certifes, like this all-glass Cirrus, it's "unfair trade practices", but
> if the FAA refuses to IFR certify a plane that the JAA *does* certify for
> IFR flight, like the Diamond DA-20, it's just "the FAA doesn't have to
> take orders from those damn Europeans"?
>

Huh? The SR20 IS certified, and the DA-20 is NOT IFR-certified anywhere in
the world.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Chris,

> GPS is not allowed as a substitute
> because GPS is not certified for IFR.
>

That statement in its broadness is not true

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)