Missing Engine Log Book

[[email protected]]

Hello Guys:

I am in the process buying a malibu and I was just told the engine log
is missing (overhauled in 1996, currently 850 hours smoh)but the owner
has MOST of the invoices for the work done during last nine years since
the overhaul. My questions are the following;

1. How much is the discounted value on this airplane without the engine
log?

2. Can a replacement log book be generated with these invoices? if so,
would it be just a record or a log book that is as good as the orginal?


3. To what extent will the reconstructed log book to be considered a
good one. For example: If the seller has the original invoice for the
overhaul work performed with total time recorded and if a paid receipt
for every annual inspection as attached. will this be acceptable?

Thank you in advance for any input.

Jack

[Matt Barrow]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hello Guys:
>
> I am in the process buying a malibu and I was just told the engine log
> is missing (overhauled in 1996, currently 850 hours smoh)but the owner
> has MOST of the invoices for the work done during last nine years since
> the overhaul. My questions are the following;
>
> 1. How much is the discounted value on this airplane without the engine
> log?
>
> 2. Can a replacement log book be generated with these invoices? if so,
> would it be just a record or a log book that is as good as the orginal?

No, and it's doubtful that the invoice has even close to the level of detail
the logs had.

>
> 3. To what extent will the reconstructed log book to be considered a
> good one.

Not much.

> For example: If the seller has the original invoice for the
> overhaul work performed with total time recorded and if a paid receipt
> for every annual inspection as attached. will this be acceptable?

It may be legal, but again, think of how much detail is on an invoice.

> Thank you in advance for any input.

Be VERY careful and discount the information DEEPLY.

[Denny]

The engine is worth it's core value only - the log book is what makes
an engine CERTIFIED... Call TCM and ask them what it will cost to get
the engine certified again - and hold on to your wallet...

denny

[jmk]

I'm going to disagree with Denny and say it's not nearly that bad. The
engine is certified if it has the appropriate data plate (seemingly
without regard to what is attached to the data plate <G>). However, if
indeed there are NO logs, then at this precise moment the engine (and
hence the aircraft) are not airworthy.

Basically all you are going to need to make it airworthy is a sheet of
paper from the AI that did the last annual, with the annual engine
signoff. That done, and without evidence of anything to the contrary,
you are legal to fly. [And don't say that because there is no log book
that you don't know if anything was done since annual to make it
unairworthy. Those are independent events, and the logbook is only one
slight way you might discover such a change.]

Now... the money items: Without proper logbook documentation, it is
harder to sell the plane. Not a big problem if you plan to keep the
plane a long time (by which time you will have probably gone through an
overhaul anyway), but still an issue.

Second, you have no record of exactly what is installed in the engine.
The last annual AI will be attesting to all the AD's performed as of
that time, but you have no formal record that they were properly
carried out. Future AI *could* (and very likely might) insist that
some work be done to verify the AD's before signing off on the next
annual. And you might find yourself doing extensive work (splitting
the case) just to find that your engine didn't even fall under some AD
in the future.

Can you make a NEW logbook? Sure, done all the time. You start by
trying to get copies of the last overhaul records, plus whatever the
manufacturer might still have on that specific serial number. Ditto
the accessories. Then take all the receipts, invoices, etc. And you
make up what you can. Perfectly legal... but doesn't really solve all
the problems above.

Me? I would start with the negotiating position that the engine is due
for overhaul and reduce the price as if the engine was at TBO.

[RST Engineering]

As others have pointed out (and I won't belabor their points) this is not
true.

Jim


"Denny" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> The engine is worth it's core value only - the log book is what makes
> an engine CERTIFIED...

[Denny]

Well, simple enough to find out for sure... He can call the FSDO and
ask them if he makes up a logbook is the engine airworthy... Be
interesting for him to report back to us... I'm always willing to
learn...

denny

[Robert M. Gary]

Is this really true? You can certify the time on the engine simply by
using the shop records from last annual and adding the time since. You
will probably have to have any ADs resigned, but other than that, I
can't think why you can't recreate the log book.

-Robert

[[email protected]]

Denny wrote:
> Well, simple enough to find out for sure... He can call the FSDO and
> ask them if he makes up a logbook is the engine airworthy... Be
> interesting for him to report back to us... I'm always willing to
> learn...

There's really no requirement to have a logbook for the engine at
all. There are record keeping requirements, but they don't specify you
have to have everything in some type of book.

That said, to be airworthy, all of the ADs on the engine have to be
signed off somewhere. While reciepts with hours and details of work
might be informative, unless they are properly signed off (unlikely),
that doesn't satisfy the requirements. I would think that you'd have
to get the proper signoffs before the engine was airworthy. This might
be a simple as having the original signer recreate the entries in a new
logbook, or as difficult as having all applicable ADs performed again.


John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Doug]

There is no set amount here. I have heard 25% off total price for
missing logs (totally missing). There is something in the FARS about
re-creating lost logs. That is what I would do if I owned the plane.
Just create a log for each invoice or something similar. Sign it off as
"recreated log". Better than nothing. I guess I'd argue for 25% of the
value remaining on the engine until TBO? So if the engine is 50% to
TBO, and a zero time is 40k, then 5k off. (25% of 20k)?

[Javier Henderson]

"Denny" > writes:

> Well, simple enough to find out for sure... He can call the FSDO and
> ask them if he makes up a logbook is the engine airworthy... Be
> interesting for him to report back to us... I'm always willing to
> learn...

Why do you think "the logbook" is needed?

Can you point out where the FARs speak of "logbook"?

What are the FAR stated requirements for this "logbook"?

How long must one keep this "logbook"?

-jav

[Newps]

Airplanes are bought and sold every day with some/all the logs missing.
It does not affect airworthiness, just the value.



Denny wrote:
> Well, simple enough to find out for sure... He can call the FSDO and
> ask them if he makes up a logbook is the engine airworthy... Be
> interesting for him to report back to us... I'm always willing to
> learn...
>
> denny
>

[Matt Barrow]

"Doug" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> There is no set amount here. I have heard 25% off total price for
> missing logs (totally missing). There is something in the FARS about
> re-creating lost logs. That is what I would do if I owned the plane.

(???) IIUC, they are merely attempting to recreate the logs from INVOCIES,
not from shop records (copies of original work).

Also, the OP is in SOuth Africa (?) -- how do THEIR laws figure in?

> Just create a log for each invoice or something similar. Sign it off as
> "recreated log".

Are the invoices even close to the level of detail as shop records?

> Better than nothing. I guess I'd argue for 25% of the
> value remaining on the engine until TBO? So if the engine is 50% to
> TBO, and a zero time is 40k, then 5k off. (25% of 20k)?

That'd work!

[Matt Barrow]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
> Airplanes are bought and sold every day with some/all the logs missing.
> It does not affect airworthiness, just the value.
>
>
Which is what the OP was asking --- how much would they discount the value.

[Denny]

Hmmm, lots of opinions...
In spite of contrary opinions from folks in the group, until the engine
is found to be airworthy I will continue to maintain that engine has
core value only... He can't prove that the connecting rod numbers are
correct, that the bearing numbers are correct, that the internal bolts
were correctly torqued, and on, and on - and there is no signature
attesting that the field repairs (overhaul) done meets the
manufacturer's specs (it takes more than the data plate on the case to
be a certified airworthy engine)...
Now, some of our august mechanic members are making noises like they
would be willing to sign their license # that the engine is
airworthy... But, I wonder if they actually would if it was in their
shop??? The bottom line is that the engine has to be opened up, part
numbers verified, parts measured for manufacturers tolerances, AD's
verified, and then reassembled, and someone has to put his professional
license on the line by signing a log of the work done and declaring the
engine airworthy... Probably what Jim/Newps, maybe $3000 for labor,
plus gaskets? Not a big deal, but it has to be done... If I were
considering buying the plane, the purchase offer would include that
work as a contingency... And I haven't seen anything about the prop
log?

Just remember Jack, the old adage - fall in love and you get screwed in
the end...

denny

denny

[Ron Natalie]

Denny wrote:
> Hmmm, lots of opinions...
> In spite of contrary opinions from folks in the group, until the engine
> is found to be airworthy I will continue to maintain that engine has
> core value only... He can't prove that the connecting rod numbers are
> correct, that the bearing numbers are correct, that the internal bolts
> were correctly torqued, and on, and on -

He couldn't prove that with the log book either.

If he can get the appropriate records from the overhaul shop
(the form formerly known as the yellow tag) and can verify
the mainenance since, then there's no real airworthiness
problem (either in actuality or in the FAA paperwork realm).

[jmk]

<<Now, some of our august mechanic members are making noises like they
would be willing to sign their license # that the engine is
airworthy... >>

Actually, we were talking about the shop that did the annual providing
a new copy of the statement that on such and such a data... found
airworthy.

If, on the other hand, someone brought an engine into a shop, never
before seen, no logs... then yes, the AI has a bigger task on his
hands. First, the engine isn't airworthy without an annual inspection,
so he has to do that. I don't see (from that alone) any necessity to
do any more than the normal tests. No need (for just that) to tear
down the engine.

But then we hit the second snag. AD's. He also has to be able to sign
off that they are all complete and HOW they were performed. [We tend
to forget that second point.] Without logs, there is a good chance
that one of THOSE may require a teardown. And you are correct, the
cost of that may likely (depending upon engine and AD's) turn out to be
the cost of a full overhaul.

I think the problem many of us had with your original post was the use
of the word "CERTIFIED" instead of "airworthy." The engine is certified
if it has the correct data plate on it. I can find an old IO-360
rusting away in the back yard of a house I bought. Is it certified?
Sure, if the data plate is still attached. Is it airworthy? Almost
certainly not, neither from a legal nor mechanical standpoint.

[George Patterson]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> Is this really true?

Is what really true?

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[Newps]

Depends. The real value is the airframe log. I wouldn't really care
much about the engine or prop log.



Matt Barrow wrote:
> "Newps" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Airplanes are bought and sold every day with some/all the logs missing.
>> It does not affect airworthiness, just the value.
>>
>>
>
> Which is what the OP was asking --- how much would they discount the value.
>
>
>

[private]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Doug" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > There is no set amount here. I have heard 25% off total price for
> > missing logs (totally missing). There is something in the FARS about
> > re-creating lost logs. That is what I would do if I owned the plane.
>
> (???) IIUC, they are merely attempting to recreate the logs from INVOCIES,
> not from shop records (copies of original work).
>
> Also, the OP is in SOuth Africa (?) -- how do THEIR laws figure in?
>
> > Just create a log for each invoice or something similar. Sign it off as
> > "recreated log".
>
> Are the invoices even close to the level of detail as shop records?
>
> > Better than nothing. I guess I'd argue for 25% of the
> > value remaining on the engine until TBO? So if the engine is 50% to
> > TBO, and a zero time is 40k, then 5k off. (25% of 20k)?
>
> That'd work!
>

IT WOULD NOT WORK FOR ME!

IMHO no log means no value beyond core and even that is a gamble. A seller
will have lots of arguments as to why more value should be applied but a
buyer can afford to be more discriminating. If it was so easy to rebuild
the logs the existing seller would have done it. You may not get the same
service, from the rebuilder who issued the original repair invoice, that the
original owner would have a right to expect, and in fact the rebuilder may
be unable or unwilling to provide any information to subsequent owners.

IMHO recreated logs are only as good as the PROVABLE data used to recreate
them. Recreated or incomplete or no logs may be legal for private use but I
would suspect they could be a real problem if the owner wished to place the
aircraft in commercial service and would certainly impact resale value.

I would submit that the condition of log books is a clear reflection of the
owners regard for the maintenance process and will probably be indicative of
the quality of the other maintenance that the aircraft has or has not
received. Poor or missing engine logs would make me question the accuracy
of any other logs. Inconvenient paperwork is often conveniently lost

I know of several pilots who no longer log time in their personal pilot logs
because "if it doesn't go in my log, it doesn't go in the aircraft log."

There is no shortage of sellers or their mechanics who are willing to pencil
whip (or forge or misrepresent) paperwork for an aircraft they are selling.
It is the job of the buyer to perform the proper due diligence to determine
the accuracy of any paperwork and to determine the aircraft's fitness for
service and legal airworthiness.

Any OPINIONS (including mine) of aircraft value are irrelevant, as the only
opinion that matters is that of the buyer. However, the opinion of that
buyer will not necessarily extend to any future prospective buyers at the
time of future resale.

Just my .02

[karl gruber]

What could the FSDO possibly know? Ask three inspectors there and get
three different answers

[George Patterson]

karl gruber wrote:
> What could the FSDO possibly know? Ask three inspectors there and get
> three different answers

I wouldn't ask at all, if they can figure out what plane I'm asking about.
That's like telling a detective where you buried the body.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

[Matt Barrow]

"karl gruber" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> What could the FSDO possibly know? Ask three inspectors there and get
> three different answers

Four or five different answers.