For [email protected]

[Bob Gardner]

It is apparently not possible to communicate with you directly, so let me
explain how I got the 1.4 miles of protected airspace on the non-maneuvering
side of procedure turn airspace, and apologize for being wrong...the
protected airspace is 4.0 miles wide, giving the pilot even less reason to
work at tracking the outbound.

Back when TERPS was an actual publication with pages rather than an online
source, Para 234 included instructions for constructing procedure turn
airspace based on max allowed distance. In the instructions for a ten-mile
PT, the procedures designer was told to select a point one mile inside of
the airspace on the manuevering side, perpendular to the outbound course at
the fix. The next step was to select another point, ten miles from the
original point but two miles inside of the maneuvering airspace. The
designer was then told to swing an arc with a 5 nm radius from the first
point and a 6 nm radius from the second point. A line drawn tangent to these
two arcs, parallel to the outbound course, defines the edge of the primary
protected area on the non-maneuvering side. The primary area gives 1000 ft
of vertical clearance...beyond that, the protected airspace vertical
protection tapers down to zero over an additional two miles.

Can't find the detailed instruction in the online TERPS, but the
illustration remains.

Bob Gardner

[Chris]

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
...
> It is apparently not possible to communicate with you directly, so let me
> explain how I got the 1.4 miles of protected airspace on the
> non-maneuvering side of procedure turn airspace, and apologize for being
> wrong...the protected airspace is 4.0 miles wide, giving the pilot even
> less reason to work at tracking the outbound.
>
> Back when TERPS was an actual publication with pages rather than an online
> source, Para 234 included instructions for constructing procedure turn
> airspace based on max allowed distance. In the instructions for a ten-mile
> PT, the procedures designer was told to select a point one mile inside of
> the airspace on the manuevering side, perpendular to the outbound course
> at the fix. The next step was to select another point, ten miles from the
> original point but two miles inside of the maneuvering airspace. The
> designer was then told to swing an arc with a 5 nm radius from the first
> point and a 6 nm radius from the second point. A line drawn tangent to
> these two arcs, parallel to the outbound course, defines the edge of the
> primary protected area on the non-maneuvering side. The primary area gives
> 1000 ft of vertical clearance...beyond that, the protected airspace
> vertical protection tapers down to zero over an additional two miles.
>
> Can't find the detailed instruction in the online TERPS, but the
> illustration remains.
>
> Bob Gardner

Bob,

this is covered in the Instrument Procedures Handbook FAA-H-8261-1 chapter 5
pages 35 onwards

[JPH]

Bob,
The TERPS manual that contains the PT instructions can be found at this
website;
http://av-info.faa.gov/terps/Directives_files/Order%208260.3_1-18.pdf

If you go to page 34 (of 268) you can find the graphic and on page 35
you can find the table that gives the instructions on how to build the
PT manually.

JPH

Bob Gardner wrote:
> It is apparently not possible to communicate with you directly, so let me
> explain how I got the 1.4 miles of protected airspace on the non-maneuvering
> side of procedure turn airspace, and apologize for being wrong...the
> protected airspace is 4.0 miles wide, giving the pilot even less reason to
> work at tracking the outbound.
>
> Back when TERPS was an actual publication with pages rather than an online
> source, Para 234 included instructions for constructing procedure turn
> airspace based on max allowed distance. In the instructions for a ten-mile
> PT, the procedures designer was told to select a point one mile inside of
> the airspace on the manuevering side, perpendular to the outbound course at
> the fix. The next step was to select another point, ten miles from the
> original point but two miles inside of the maneuvering airspace. The
> designer was then told to swing an arc with a 5 nm radius from the first
> point and a 6 nm radius from the second point. A line drawn tangent to these
> two arcs, parallel to the outbound course, defines the edge of the primary
> protected area on the non-maneuvering side. The primary area gives 1000 ft
> of vertical clearance...beyond that, the protected airspace vertical
> protection tapers down to zero over an additional two miles.
>
> Can't find the detailed instruction in the online TERPS, but the
> illustration remains.
>
> Bob Gardner
>
>

[Bob Gardner]

I rely on the Summit Aviation CD-ROM...guess they don't provide
everything...

Thanks.

Bob

"JPH" > wrote in message
news:xC5qe.9693$mC.6960@okepread07...
> Bob,
> The TERPS manual that contains the PT instructions can be found at this
> website;
> http://av-info.faa.gov/terps/Directives_files/Order%208260.3_1-18.pdf
>
> If you go to page 34 (of 268) you can find the graphic and on page 35 you
> can find the table that gives the instructions on how to build the PT
> manually.
>
> JPH
>
> Bob Gardner wrote:
>> It is apparently not possible to communicate with you directly, so let me
>> explain how I got the 1.4 miles of protected airspace on the
>> non-maneuvering side of procedure turn airspace, and apologize for being
>> wrong...the protected airspace is 4.0 miles wide, giving the pilot even
>> less reason to work at tracking the outbound.
>>
>> Back when TERPS was an actual publication with pages rather than an
>> online source, Para 234 included instructions for constructing procedure
>> turn airspace based on max allowed distance. In the instructions for a
>> ten-mile PT, the procedures designer was told to select a point one mile
>> inside of the airspace on the manuevering side, perpendular to the
>> outbound course at the fix. The next step was to select another point,
>> ten miles from the original point but two miles inside of the maneuvering
>> airspace. The designer was then told to swing an arc with a 5 nm radius
>> from the first point and a 6 nm radius from the second point. A line
>> drawn tangent to these two arcs, parallel to the outbound course, defines
>> the edge of the primary protected area on the non-maneuvering side. The
>> primary area gives 1000 ft of vertical clearance...beyond that, the
>> protected airspace vertical protection tapers down to zero over an
>> additional two miles.
>>
>> Can't find the detailed instruction in the online TERPS, but the
>> illustration remains.
>>
>> Bob Gardner
>>

[[email protected]]

Bob Gardner wrote:

> I rely on the Summit Aviation CD-ROM...guess they don't provide
> everything...
>

How current is your Summit CD? Mine shows Paragraph 234, the graphic, and the
three tables for construction area, depending on altitude.

The three different sizes, depending on altitude, were added in the past five,
or so, years.

Another thing to keep in mind, just like with holding pattern crtieria (a
different handbook, also in Summit) is that where the procedure turn is a VHF
fix, the fix error could already chip away at the margins, so you might not
quite be where you think you should be when starting a procedure turn under
those circumstances.

Then, there is the ever-present issue of FAA policy directives that are not
reflected in handbooks that are not "spot current." For instance, in the
holding pattern crtieria there is a selection table for GPS (RNAV) holding, but
that was challenged at the Aeronatucal Charting Forum about three years ago as
being an untested selection process that presumed positive course guidance
throughout an RNAV holding pattern. Only some high-end LNAV platforms can do
that; others must fly outbound in the traditional manner using dead reckoning.
As a result of that ACF issue paper the FAA made simulator tests, which
confirmed the industry objection. Thus, by policy letter, that GPS selection
table can no longer be used for RNAV holding patterns.

>
> Thanks.
>
> Bob
>
> "JPH" > wrote in message
> news:xC5qe.9693$mC.6960@okepread07...
> > Bob,
> > The TERPS manual that contains the PT instructions can be found at this
> > website;
> > http://av-info.faa.gov/terps/Directives_files/Order%208260.3_1-18.pdf
> >
> > If you go to page 34 (of 268) you can find the graphic and on page 35 you
> > can find the table that gives the instructions on how to build the PT
> > manually.
> >
> > JPH
> >
> > Bob Gardner wrote:
> >> It is apparently not possible to communicate with you directly, so let me
> >> explain how I got the 1.4 miles of protected airspace on the
> >> non-maneuvering side of procedure turn airspace, and apologize for being
> >> wrong...the protected airspace is 4.0 miles wide, giving the pilot even
> >> less reason to work at tracking the outbound.
> >>
> >> Back when TERPS was an actual publication with pages rather than an
> >> online source, Para 234 included instructions for constructing procedure
> >> turn airspace based on max allowed distance. In the instructions for a
> >> ten-mile PT, the procedures designer was told to select a point one mile
> >> inside of the airspace on the manuevering side, perpendular to the
> >> outbound course at the fix. The next step was to select another point,
> >> ten miles from the original point but two miles inside of the maneuvering
> >> airspace. The designer was then told to swing an arc with a 5 nm radius
> >> from the first point and a 6 nm radius from the second point. A line
> >> drawn tangent to these two arcs, parallel to the outbound course, defines
> >> the edge of the primary protected area on the non-maneuvering side. The
> >> primary area gives 1000 ft of vertical clearance...beyond that, the
> >> protected airspace vertical protection tapers down to zero over an
> >> additional two miles.
> >>
> >> Can't find the detailed instruction in the online TERPS, but the
> >> illustration remains.
> >>
> >> Bob Gardner
> >>

[Bob Gardner]

Poor research on my part. At a glance, the presentation didn't look like
what I had seen in the past, and I dismissed it. But my original point is
valid...there is a ton of protected airspace on the non-maneuvering side.

Bob Gardner

> wrote in message ...
>
>
> Bob Gardner wrote:
>
>> I rely on the Summit Aviation CD-ROM...guess they don't provide
>> everything...
>>
>
> How current is your Summit CD? Mine shows Paragraph 234, the graphic, and
> the
> three tables for construction area, depending on altitude.
>
> The three different sizes, depending on altitude, were added in the past
> five,
> or so, years.
>
> Another thing to keep in mind, just like with holding pattern crtieria (a
> different handbook, also in Summit) is that where the procedure turn is a
> VHF
> fix, the fix error could already chip away at the margins, so you might
> not
> quite be where you think you should be when starting a procedure turn
> under
> those circumstances.
>
> Then, there is the ever-present issue of FAA policy directives that are
> not
> reflected in handbooks that are not "spot current." For instance, in the
> holding pattern crtieria there is a selection table for GPS (RNAV)
> holding, but
> that was challenged at the Aeronatucal Charting Forum about three years
> ago as
> being an untested selection process that presumed positive course guidance
> throughout an RNAV holding pattern. Only some high-end LNAV platforms can
> do
> that; others must fly outbound in the traditional manner using dead
> reckoning.
> As a result of that ACF issue paper the FAA made simulator tests, which
> confirmed the industry objection. Thus, by policy letter, that GPS
> selection
> table can no longer be used for RNAV holding patterns.
>
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> "JPH" > wrote in message
>> news:xC5qe.9693$mC.6960@okepread07...
>> > Bob,
>> > The TERPS manual that contains the PT instructions can be found at this
>> > website;
>> > http://av-info.faa.gov/terps/Directives_files/Order%208260.3_1-18.pdf
>> >
>> > If you go to page 34 (of 268) you can find the graphic and on page 35
>> > you
>> > can find the table that gives the instructions on how to build the PT
>> > manually.
>> >
>> > JPH
>> >
>> > Bob Gardner wrote:
>> >> It is apparently not possible to communicate with you directly, so let
>> >> me
>> >> explain how I got the 1.4 miles of protected airspace on the
>> >> non-maneuvering side of procedure turn airspace, and apologize for
>> >> being
>> >> wrong...the protected airspace is 4.0 miles wide, giving the pilot
>> >> even
>> >> less reason to work at tracking the outbound.
>> >>
>> >> Back when TERPS was an actual publication with pages rather than an
>> >> online source, Para 234 included instructions for constructing
>> >> procedure
>> >> turn airspace based on max allowed distance. In the instructions for a
>> >> ten-mile PT, the procedures designer was told to select a point one
>> >> mile
>> >> inside of the airspace on the manuevering side, perpendular to the
>> >> outbound course at the fix. The next step was to select another point,
>> >> ten miles from the original point but two miles inside of the
>> >> maneuvering
>> >> airspace. The designer was then told to swing an arc with a 5 nm
>> >> radius
>> >> from the first point and a 6 nm radius from the second point. A line
>> >> drawn tangent to these two arcs, parallel to the outbound course,
>> >> defines
>> >> the edge of the primary protected area on the non-maneuvering side.
>> >> The
>> >> primary area gives 1000 ft of vertical clearance...beyond that, the
>> >> protected airspace vertical protection tapers down to zero over an
>> >> additional two miles.
>> >>
>> >> Can't find the detailed instruction in the online TERPS, but the
>> >> illustration remains.
>> >>
>> >> Bob Gardner
>> >>
>

[[email protected]]

Bob Gardner wrote:

> Poor research on my part. At a glance, the presentation didn't look like
> what I had seen in the past, and I dismissed it. But my original point is
> valid...there is a ton of protected airspace on the non-maneuvering side.

No doubt that is the case for light aircraft. But, not necessarily so for
jets. For many years the AIM said procedure turn entry and maneuvers could be
done as high as 250 knots, IAS. When it was demonstrated to them that loss of
containment could occur in the entry area at certain angles and adverse tail
wind components, they dropped the max speed to 200.