Hard Starting Cold Continental Engines

[M.E. Borner]

My Seneca V (Continental TSIO-360-RB) has been very hard to start
during cold weather for the past few winters I have owned it. Besides
burning out several starters I have tried tune-ups prior to winter and
installing the Slick Shower of Sparks ignition system. All have helped
a little but no dramatic improvements. My mechanic has been researching
this issue (he also has another Seneca V o nthe field with similar
problems) and has come up with a somewhat obscure Continental Service
Instruction Letter that references cold weather starting and discusses
New Cylinder/Induction Port Drain Connections. This involves 24 new
drains ($200 ea.) and before I make an investment on such a vague SIL I
thought I would seek others experience. Is anyone familiar with this
and care to share experience?

[Kobra]

> My Seneca V (Continental TSIO-360-RB) has been very hard to start
> during cold weather for the past few winters I have owned it. Besides
> burning out several starters I have tried tune-ups prior to winter and
> installing the Slick Shower of Sparks ignition system.

We had this problem with a Lycoming IO360 and regapping the plugs helped
quite a bit. Maybe new plugs might be in order. Of course a good pre-heat
is also a very big help.

Kobra

[[email protected]]

On 28 Nov 2005 10:44:51 -0800, "M.E. Borner" >
wrote:

>My Seneca V (Continental TSIO-360-RB) has been very hard to start
>during cold weather for the past few winters I have owned it. Besides
>burning out several starters I have tried tune-ups prior to winter and
>installing the Slick Shower of Sparks ignition system. All have helped
>a little but no dramatic improvements. My mechanic has been researching
>this issue (he also has another Seneca V o nthe field with similar
>problems) and has come up with a somewhat obscure Continental Service
>Instruction Letter that references cold weather starting and discusses
>New Cylinder/Induction Port Drain Connections. This involves 24 new
>drains ($200 ea.) and before I make an investment on such a vague SIL I
>thought I would seek others experience. Is anyone familiar with this
>and care to share experience?

I'm thinking that your Seneca V's TCM engine has a RSA/Bendix
injection system instead of the "classic" TCM fuel injection. If it
does, it needs to be primed/started like an injected Lycoming.

Can I ask how you what procedures you are currently using?

TC

[M.E. Borner]

I am not sure what type of injection system I have but it definitely is
fuel injected. I too think (am hoping) it is technique related,
certainly the least expensive route to a solution. I am leery of
burning up another starter while trouble shooting technique. My
un-preheated cold weather/cold engine starting technique is very
similar to my warm weather/cold engine technique and is as follows:

throttle open 1/4 inch
mixture full rich
electric fuel pump/prime on
wait a few seconds (2 at the most)
crank

In warm weather it starts right away. Colder weather takes 4-5 seconds
of cranking before it starts. Cold weather takes major cranking and no
fuel pump after the first attempt. Sometimes I get it going and
sometimes I don't. Both engines are very difficult and uncertain,
although the right engine is much more cooperative than the left.

[john smith]

In article . com>,
"M.E. Borner" > wrote:

> I am not sure what type of injection system I have but it definitely is
> fuel injected. I too think (am hoping) it is technique related,
> certainly the least expensive route to a solution. I am leery of
> burning up another starter while trouble shooting technique. My
> un-preheated cold weather/cold engine starting technique is very
> similar to my warm weather/cold engine technique and is as follows:
>
> throttle open 1/4 inch
> mixture full rich
> electric fuel pump/prime on
> wait a few seconds (2 at the most)
> crank
>
> In warm weather it starts right away. Colder weather takes 4-5 seconds
> of cranking before it starts. Cold weather takes major cranking and no
> fuel pump after the first attempt. Sometimes I get it going and
> sometimes I don't. Both engines are very difficult and uncertain,
> although the right engine is much more cooperative than the left.

Which priming system?
My experience is with the Turbo Arrow IV.
There are two different priming system for that engine.

[[email protected]]

Dude, the T-Arrow IV left the factory with a Rajay turbo with a bolt
screwed into the tailpipe for pseudo boost control-a V's got an
Airesearch turbo with a automatic waste gate. You've got TCM "classic"
fuel injection, a V's got RSA/Bendix/Precision Airmotive fuel
injection.

I don't think that the V's installation has the push-to-prime "cold
start kit" as an option...

The cold start kit option on your engine was a set of fine-wire
sparkplugs and a solenoid valve with a couple extra hard lines that
allowed fuel to be sprayed directly into the front end of the LH and RH
induction pipes.

TCM "classic" injected engines are typically started with the mixture
control at "full rich", RSA/Bendix injected engines are typically
started with the mixture at ICO.

regards;

TC

[Scott Skylane]

M.E. Borner wrote:
> I am not sure what type of injection system I have but it definitely is
> fuel injected. I too think (am hoping) it is technique related,
> certainly the least expensive route to a solution. I am leery of
> burning up another starter while trouble shooting technique. My
> un-preheated cold weather/cold engine starting technique is very
> similar to my warm weather/cold engine technique and is as follows:
>
> throttle open 1/4 inch
> mixture full rich
> electric fuel pump/prime on
> wait a few seconds (2 at the most)
> crank
>
> In warm weather it starts right away. Colder weather takes 4-5 seconds
> of cranking before it starts. Cold weather takes major cranking and no
> fuel pump after the first attempt. Sometimes I get it going and
> sometimes I don't. Both engines are very difficult and uncertain,
> although the right engine is much more cooperative than the left.
>

I believe you are WAY under-priming your engines, when they are
un-preheated. Next time, try:

Throttle, Wide Open
Mixture, Full Rich
Fuel Pump, Prime for 6-10 secs, then Off
Throttle to 1/4 inch
Crank

Be ready to turn the fuel pump back on, if the engine starts to die
after it starts, otherwise, just leave it off.

As a side note, the older Senecas, with the TCM fuel injection and a
Cold Start kit, were unstoppable in the winter. You couldn't *not*
start those engines, no matter how cold they got. I don't have any
experience with the RSA system mated to a Continental 360, but the above
technique works very well on any injected Lycoming I've tried.

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane
N92054

[Kobra]

> throttle open 1/4 inch
> mixture full rich
> electric fuel pump/prime on
> wait a few seconds (2 at the most)
> crank
>

I agree...you are NOT priming enough. In the cold weather you can prime
twice as long as in warm weather or even longer. Also, don't forget that
the plugs can ice over (or so I am told) and this will cause the plug not to
spark. Old wife's tale? Possibly but it makes sense to me.

Kobra

[[email protected]]

On 29 Nov 2005 05:55:17 -0800, "M.E. Borner" >
wrote:

>throttle open 1/4 inch
>mixture full rich
>electric fuel pump/prime on
>wait a few seconds (2 at the most)
>crank

Definitely not enuff fuel for a cold start.
>
>In warm weather it starts right away. Colder weather takes 4-5 seconds
>of cranking before it starts. Cold weather takes major cranking and no
>fuel pump after the first attempt. Sometimes I get it going and
>sometimes I don't. Both engines are very difficult and uncertain,
>although the right engine is much more cooperative than the left.

What does "the book" say for a cold start?

I learned to verify power and mixture levers aft, boost pump on, power
& mixture full forward for 2-3 (or 3-4) seconds, pull back. Crack the
throttle, crank the engine, apply mixture lever as needed once the
engine starts running. Was taught never to crank an RSA engine with
the mixture out of ICO.

If it's colder, the levers need to stay ahead longer. The trick is to
get it rich enuff to fire, but not excessively rich. If it doesn't
fire almost immediately, or fires and dies, you just need to add a
little more fuel. If you flood it, you're screwed.

You just need to figure out how much fuel your particular pair of
engines need to start with varying OAT's

TC

[[email protected]]

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:47:18 -0900, Scott Skylane
> wrote:

snip

>As a side note, the older Senecas, with the TCM fuel injection and a
>Cold Start kit, were unstoppable in the winter. You couldn't *not*
>start those engines, no matter how cold they got. I don't have any
>experience with the RSA system mated to a Continental 360, but the above
>technique works very well on any injected Lycoming I've tried.

Heh. Mash the button until the plenum drains start ****ing blue into
the snow and start the mutha up. BTDT.

TC

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Kobra" > wrote in message
...
>
>> throttle open 1/4 inch
>> mixture full rich
>> electric fuel pump/prime on
>> wait a few seconds (2 at the most)
>> crank
>>
>
> I agree...you are NOT priming enough. In the cold weather you can prime
> twice as long as in warm weather or even longer. Also, don't forget that
> the plugs can ice over (or so I am told) and this will cause the plug not
> to spark. Old wife's tale? Possibly but it makes sense to me.
>
> Kobra

Yea, what he said.

If you (the original poster) were as old as me, and had grown up pulling on
a manual choke every time you started the car, you would realize that cold
engines need a lot more fuel to get started than warm engines. All that
automatic, electonic stuff might be nice for emssions and reliability (and
keeping me employed) but they do insulate the average person from the
mechanics of "how an engine works"...

And, no, icing plugs is not an old wives tale. Usually happens when the
engine fires only once or twice but doesn't start.

--
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
The Sea Hawk At WowWay D0t Com

[Jim Burns]

> wrote in message
> You just need to figure out how much fuel your particular pair of
> engines need to start with varying OAT's
>
> TC

TC makes a very important point that is often overlooked when training
pilots. I usually start by asking a student what they think happens with
the density altitude is when it's cold, then I ask them what that does to
their fuel/air mixture. Next question is, if you've got more air, don't you
need more fuel? It's amazing how many show surprise. Same theory, opposite
actions for hot temps and hot starts.

Jim

[DavidM]

M.E. Borner wrote:

> My un-preheated cold weather/cold engine starting technique is very
> similar to my warm weather/cold engine technique

You might want to consider investing a (relatively) small amount of
money in a Tanis heating system. The cost of overhauling those two
engines, including removal, shipping, and reinstallation, would get you
a good way towards buying a house in some of the poorer states, so a
couple of thousand (including labour) for a heating system and
insulated covers would be a wise investment.

If you don't have access to electricity, is there a Herman Nelson or
similar force-air preheater somewhere on your field? If not, perhaps
there are small, portable, propane-powered forced-air heaters you could
buy and bring out with you (I haven't investigated this, since I keep
my plane at a major airport with lots of services).

When you're visiting a remote airport, you can always cover the engines
after a flight -- they should stay warm for quite a few hours under an
insulated cover.

I have to admit that I've cold-started the O-320 on my Warrior down to
-15 degC (with a *lot* of priming), but I'm not proud of it. Now, with
a newly-overhauled engine, I've moved to a spot where I can leave my
Tanis plugging in all winter to protect the investment.


Best of luck,


David

[nrp]

I won't start my 172M without preheat unless it is above 40 degF or has
been running recently - and that's with the multivis Aeroshell.

Lycomings are unusually sensitive to cold start cam damage. My
thinking is that even a single episode can create internal mayhem.

[M.E. Borner]

Perhaps my description was not clear enough. My engines do have Tanis
preheaters on them. When I preheat the engine everything is fine, it
starts like a mid-summer day. The problem is when it is cold and I am
unable to preheat due to lack of accessibility to electricity.

[DavidM]

M.E. Borner wrote:

> Perhaps my description was not clear enough. My engines do have Tanis
> preheaters on them. When I preheat the engine everything is fine, it
> starts like a mid-summer day. The problem is when it is cold and I am
> unable to preheat due to lack of accessibility to electricity.

It might be worth trying to find some other way to preheat when you
cannot plug in (get the plane pulled into a heated hangar, or borrow a
forced-air heater). Your engines might be trying to send you a
message.


All the best,


David

[Michael Ware]

Portable generator?

"M.E. Borner" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Perhaps my description was not clear enough. My engines do have Tanis
> preheaters on them. When I preheat the engine everything is fine, it
> starts like a mid-summer day. The problem is when it is cold and I am
> unable to preheat due to lack of accessibility to electricity.
>