Clear coat peeling: Suggestions?

[Mike]

We had our archer II painted in 1996, including a clearcoat. About 6 -
12 months ago the clear coat started peeling just a little, almost
exclusively on the control surfaces. (They were removed and painted
separately, so it makes sense they behaved slightly differently. Now
though, the clear coat is peeling in quite a few places, especially the
elevator and outer wing. Other the the peeling clearcoat, the paint is
in pretty good shape.
Any suggestions/recommendations for ways to 'fix' the clearcoat without
a relatively complete paint job.?? I'd like to get some good ideas
before talking to a shop.
Thanks!!
Mike Pvt/IFR PA28-181 N44979 at KRYY

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[[email protected]]

Mike,
The auto industry has had major problems with clearcoat over the years.
The problem is related to the sun's UV rays destroying the bond
between the color and clear coat paint layers. Once started I don't
think there is much that can be done to stop the process. The current
technology has UV blockers in the clear coat along with other changes
to the paint system which has pretty much fixed things. Repainting is
the only real solution.....

Regards,
Jerry

[Mike Spera]

Yikes. This is a tough one. It happens sometimes seemingly without reason.

There are a few possible causes (in order of likelihood):

* This paint job may be at the end of its reasonable life expectations.
Especially if a heavy clear topcoat was applied (via many coats at the
owner's request), 10 years is actually a great run for a clear job. This
is especially true if the plane was kept outside, double for Southern
California or Florida. Heavy clear jobs usually fail much sooner on
custom auto paint jobs that are used as "daily drivers". What kind of
paint is it? In '96, acrylic lacquer was still available. If it is a
lacquer job, you got a great life out of it.

* the base paint was not meant to have clear over it. Most paint
recommended for aviation use is single stage (no clear topcoat)
urethane. The specific paint brand may have a clear, but if you read the
instructions, it is only recommended for "custom" finishes and there are
ample warnings about peeling, cracking, and crazing. I have not followed
paint for may years, so this may have changed. There are several common
automotive paint systems today that are 2 stage (base with clear
topcoats). But I recall the brands commonly used on airplanes were and
are single stage.

* the shop used a different clear brand than the base. It happens. Some
shops think that all urethane paints are compatible so they use whatever
clear they have. Some clears have better spray properties than others.
Some guys use the same clear that they know will flow out like glass.
Unfortunately, they may not be fully compatible over the long haul with
the base.

* the clear topcoats were applied incorrectly over the base coats. When
putting clear over a base, there are specific maximum "recoat" times
that you must follow. Some shops will paint the base, wait a day and
paint the second base color or some stripe color, then wait another day
and paint the last stripe color. After all this, they may wait an
additional 1/2 day and clear over the whole thing. Some paint requires
that recoating requires a scuff sand. It may not have been done. Some
paints prohibit recoating between 24 hours and 1 month.

* the clear was out of date or contaminated. Old paint, especially paint
that has been exposed to freezing or near freezing temps can turn
unpredictable. Airplane hangars are expensive to heat 24/7. Some shops
turn off the heat or turn it way down when there are no paint jobs to do
or everyone has gone home. If the paint is stored in the same hangar, it
will get too cold to use. Clear may be bought in bulk if they do a lot
of clear jobs. That increases the chances of contamination or freezing.
But, if it stuck for 10 years, this is not very likely.

* Just bad luck. Paint is not perfect. Bad batches do happen.
Unfortunately, there are enough variables that most paint companies
won't stand behind the stuff is things go south. Yours has the added
challenge of time. If they do cover you, they may only replace the paint
itself. You get stuck with the labor. In that case, it is not fair to
try to get the shop to eat it. On the other hand, if you can pin the
shop down to one of the improper application or storage methods above,
you might chase after them . But, like I said, after 10 years, you are
probably stuck with the total bill.

What can you do about it? Nothing besides a strip and repaint. If you
try to sand the finish and feather the edges, you MAY get a clear recoat
to stick. But that may be impossible to make look good, especially at
the edges. Chances are excellent that the original will keep peeling.

Good luck,
Mike

> We had our archer II painted in 1996, including a clearcoat. About 6 -
> 12 months ago the clear coat started peeling just a little, almost
> exclusively on the control surfaces. (They were removed and painted
> separately, so it makes sense they behaved slightly differently. Now
> though, the clear coat is peeling in quite a few places, especially the
> elevator and outer wing. Other the the peeling clearcoat, the paint is
> in pretty good shape.
> Any suggestions/recommendations for ways to 'fix' the clearcoat without
> a relatively complete paint job.?? I'd like to get some good ideas
> before talking to a shop.
> Thanks!!
> Mike Pvt/IFR PA28-181 N44979 at KRYY
>

[Robert M. Gary]

Mike wrote:
> We had our archer II painted in 1996, including a clearcoat. About 6 -
> 12 months ago the clear coat started peeling just a little, almost
> exclusively on the control surfaces. (They were removed and painted
> separately, so it makes sense they behaved slightly differently. Now
> though, the clear coat is peeling in quite a few places, especially the
> elevator and outer wing. Other the the peeling clearcoat, the paint is
> in pretty good shape.
> Any suggestions/recommendations for ways to 'fix' the clearcoat without
> a relatively complete paint job.?? I'd like to get some good ideas
> before talking to a shop.
> Thanks!!
> Mike Pvt/IFR PA28-181 N44979 at KRYY

I'm in the same boat with my Mooney. Every shop I go to just cringes
when they see that someone put clearcoat in an airplane. Apparently its
common for cars but generally considered quite hill-billy for airplanes
(the proper technique being to mix it in with the paint).
However, the good news is that after the initial horror of the peeling,
it will start to look much, much better. Once the clear coat is gone
you are left with nice paint.

-Robert

[Kyle Boatright]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Mike wrote:
>> We had our archer II painted in 1996, including a clearcoat. About 6 -
>> 12 months ago the clear coat started peeling just a little, almost
>> exclusively on the control surfaces. (They were removed and painted
>> separately, so it makes sense they behaved slightly differently. Now
>> though, the clear coat is peeling in quite a few places, especially the
>> elevator and outer wing. Other the the peeling clearcoat, the paint is
>> in pretty good shape.
>> Any suggestions/recommendations for ways to 'fix' the clearcoat without
>> a relatively complete paint job.?? I'd like to get some good ideas
>> before talking to a shop.
>> Thanks!!
>> Mike Pvt/IFR PA28-181 N44979 at KRYY
>
> I'm in the same boat with my Mooney. Every shop I go to just cringes
> when they see that someone put clearcoat in an airplane. Apparently its
> common for cars but generally considered quite hill-billy for airplanes
> (the proper technique being to mix it in with the paint).

I don't think you'll find any major paint manufacturer that recommends
mixing the clear coat with the color coat. Paint systems are either single
stage (no clear coat) or two stage, in which the second "stage" is a clear
coat.

> However, the good news is that after the initial horror of the peeling,
> it will start to look much, much better. Once the clear coat is gone
> you are left with nice paint.

The clear coat provides UV protection and gloss. On two stage systems, the
color coat doesn't hold up well once the clear peels off.

>
> -Robert

KB

[Viperdoc[_3_]]

I had my plane painted within the last few years, and wanted to do a two
stage paint, which looks arguably better (matt color coat/clear coat).
However, with three different colors, the paint all had to be applied and
clear coated within around 48 hours, otherwise the bonding would suffer.

Putting clear over a glossy finish also required sanding the entire surface
to improve adhesion.Overall, it wouldn't have worked very well.

I suspect that once the clear coat starts debonding from the underlying
pigment layer, you may be in for some future problems, but perhaps they
could sand the surfaces down to the pigment layer and put another clear coat
on top.

[Robert M. Gary]

Kyle Boatright wrote:
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> I don't think you'll find any major paint manufacturer that recommends
> mixing the clear coat with the color coat. Paint systems are either single
> stage (no clear coat) or two stage, in which the second "stage" is a clear
> coat.

Correct, clear cost is the wrong product to use on aircraft, according
to the paint shops I've spoken too. Its considered quiet hill-billy.

[Robert M. Gary]

Kyle Boatright wrote:
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> I don't think you'll find any major paint manufacturer that recommends
> mixing the clear coat with the color coat. Paint systems are either single
> stage (no clear coat) or two stage, in which the second "stage" is a clear
> coat.

Correct, clear cost is the wrong product to use on aircraft, according
to the paint shops I've spoken too. Its considered quiet hill-billy.

[Dave Stadt]

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>>
>> Mike wrote:
>>> We had our archer II painted in 1996, including a clearcoat. About 6 -
>>> 12 months ago the clear coat started peeling just a little, almost
>>> exclusively on the control surfaces. (They were removed and painted
>>> separately, so it makes sense they behaved slightly differently. Now
>>> though, the clear coat is peeling in quite a few places, especially the
>>> elevator and outer wing. Other the the peeling clearcoat, the paint is
>>> in pretty good shape.
>>> Any suggestions/recommendations for ways to 'fix' the clearcoat without
>>> a relatively complete paint job.?? I'd like to get some good ideas
>>> before talking to a shop.
>>> Thanks!!
>>> Mike Pvt/IFR PA28-181 N44979 at KRYY
>>
>> I'm in the same boat with my Mooney. Every shop I go to just cringes
>> when they see that someone put clearcoat in an airplane. Apparently its
>> common for cars but generally considered quite hill-billy for airplanes
>> (the proper technique being to mix it in with the paint).
>
> I don't think you'll find any major paint manufacturer that recommends
> mixing the clear coat with the color coat. Paint systems are either
> single stage (no clear coat) or two stage, in which the second "stage" is
> a clear coat.

House of Kolor recommends doing just that. It provides a finish between a
single and two stage job.

[Robert M. Gary]

Dave Stadt wrote:
> "Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
> . ..
> House of Kolor recommends doing just that. It provides a finish between a
> single and two stage job.

Just curious, is this just for darks or all colors?

-Robert

[Dave Stadt]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
s.com...
>
> Dave Stadt wrote:
>> "Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>> House of Kolor recommends doing just that. It provides a finish between
>> a
>> single and two stage job.
>
> Just curious, is this just for darks or all colors?
>
> -Robert

I only have experience with black for which they recommend up to 50 percent
clear in the last coat for added depth, gloss and color.

[Mike Noel]

Just Curious. Does wax provide enough protection to allow a two stage paint
to hold up reasonably well when the plane is hangared? I used an acrylic
enamel to paint a fiberglass replacement tail strobe fairing and the finish
is glassy despite not having followed up with a clear coat.

--
Best Regards,
Mike

http://photoshow.comcast.net/mikenoel

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>>
>> Mike wrote:
>>> We had our archer II painted in 1996, including a clearcoat. About 6 -
>>> 12 months ago the clear coat started peeling just a little, almost
>>> exclusively on the control surfaces. (They were removed and painted
>>> separately, so it makes sense they behaved slightly differently. Now
>>> though, the clear coat is peeling in quite a few places, especially the
>>> elevator and outer wing. Other the the peeling clearcoat, the paint is
>>> in pretty good shape.
>>> Any suggestions/recommendations for ways to 'fix' the clearcoat without
>>> a relatively complete paint job.?? I'd like to get some good ideas
>>> before talking to a shop.
>>> Thanks!!
>>> Mike Pvt/IFR PA28-181 N44979 at KRYY
>>
>> I'm in the same boat with my Mooney. Every shop I go to just cringes
>> when they see that someone put clearcoat in an airplane. Apparently its
>> common for cars but generally considered quite hill-billy for airplanes
>> (the proper technique being to mix it in with the paint).
>
> I don't think you'll find any major paint manufacturer that recommends
> mixing the clear coat with the color coat. Paint systems are either
> single stage (no clear coat) or two stage, in which the second "stage" is
> a clear coat.
>
>> However, the good news is that after the initial horror of the peeling,
>> it will start to look much, much better. Once the clear coat is gone
>> you are left with nice paint.
>
> The clear coat provides UV protection and gloss. On two stage systems, the
> color coat doesn't hold up well once the clear peels off.
>
>>
>> -Robert
>
> KB
>

[Mike]

Dave Stadt wrote:
> "Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>> Mike wrote:
>>>> We had our archer II painted in 1996, including a clearcoat. About 6 -
>>>> 12 months ago the clear coat started peeling just a little, almost
>>>> exclusively on the control surfaces. (They were removed and painted
>>>> separately, so it makes sense they behaved slightly differently. Now
>>>> though, the clear coat is peeling in quite a few places, especially the
>>>> elevator and outer wing. Other the the peeling clearcoat, the paint is
>>>> in pretty good shape.
>>>> Any suggestions/recommendations for ways to 'fix' the clearcoat without
>>>> a relatively complete paint job.?? I'd like to get some good ideas
>>>> before talking to a shop.
>>>> Thanks!!
>>>> Mike Pvt/IFR PA28-181 N44979 at KRYY
>>> I'm in the same boat with my Mooney. Every shop I go to just cringes
>>> when they see that someone put clearcoat in an airplane. Apparently its
>>> common for cars but generally considered quite hill-billy for airplanes
>>> (the proper technique being to mix it in with the paint).
>> I don't think you'll find any major paint manufacturer that recommends
>> mixing the clear coat with the color coat. Paint systems are either
>> single stage (no clear coat) or two stage, in which the second "stage" is
>> a clear coat.
>
> House of Kolor recommends doing just that. It provides a finish between a
> single and two stage job.
>
>
>

First, thanks for all the comments/info/suggestions....

I went back in our records to see what kind of paint they used, but it
was not on the workorder or receipt. I think it was to be JetGlow (?).
I seem to remember them saying it was a "all-in-one" product, with
color and clear coats going on at one time, but I can't imagine the
clear peeling like this if it was a "one step".
So the consensus is that there is no easy ("inexpensive") fix and the
only thing to do is strip and repaint...
Oh, the plane is tied down, no hanger, and is located just outside of
Atlanta, so the conditions are pretty harsh... not as bad as Florida,
but pretty tough on paint, I'm sure.

Thanks
Mike

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

[Dave Stadt]

"Mike" <bellsouth.net@mhammoc> wrote in message
.. .
> Dave Stadt wrote:
>> "Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
>>> oups.com...
>>>> Mike wrote:
>>>>> We had our archer II painted in 1996, including a clearcoat. About
>>>>> 6 -
>>>>> 12 months ago the clear coat started peeling just a little, almost
>>>>> exclusively on the control surfaces. (They were removed and painted
>>>>> separately, so it makes sense they behaved slightly differently. Now
>>>>> though, the clear coat is peeling in quite a few places, especially
>>>>> the
>>>>> elevator and outer wing. Other the the peeling clearcoat, the paint
>>>>> is
>>>>> in pretty good shape.
>>>>> Any suggestions/recommendations for ways to 'fix' the clearcoat
>>>>> without
>>>>> a relatively complete paint job.?? I'd like to get some good ideas
>>>>> before talking to a shop.
>>>>> Thanks!!
>>>>> Mike Pvt/IFR PA28-181 N44979 at KRYY
>>>> I'm in the same boat with my Mooney. Every shop I go to just cringes
>>>> when they see that someone put clearcoat in an airplane. Apparently its
>>>> common for cars but generally considered quite hill-billy for airplanes
>>>> (the proper technique being to mix it in with the paint).
>>> I don't think you'll find any major paint manufacturer that recommends
>>> mixing the clear coat with the color coat. Paint systems are either
>>> single stage (no clear coat) or two stage, in which the second "stage"
>>> is a clear coat.
>>
>> House of Kolor recommends doing just that. It provides a finish between
>> a single and two stage job.
>>
>>
>>
>
> First, thanks for all the comments/info/suggestions....
>
> I went back in our records to see what kind of paint they used, but it was
> not on the workorder or receipt. I think it was to be JetGlow (?). I seem
> to remember them saying it was a "all-in-one" product, with color and
> clear coats going on at one time, but I can't imagine the clear peeling
> like this if it was a "one step".
> So the consensus is that there is no easy ("inexpensive") fix and the only
> thing to do is strip and repaint...
> Oh, the plane is tied down, no hanger, and is located just outside of
> Atlanta, so the conditions are pretty harsh... not as bad as Florida, but
> pretty tough on paint, I'm sure.
>
> Thanks
> Mike
>
> --
> Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Some paints have very stringent recoat times which if not followed will
cause loss of adhesion. One I am familiar with requires a wait of at least
one hour but no more than three hours. The 2 hour window can be hard to
meet if the paint job is not planned extremely well.

[Robert M. Gary]

Mike wrote:
> Dave Stadt wrote:
> So the consensus is that there is no easy ("inexpensive") fix and the
> only thing to do is strip and repaint...
> Oh, the plane is tied down, no hanger, and is located just outside of
> Atlanta, so the conditions are pretty harsh... not as bad as Florida,
> but pretty tough on paint, I'm sure.

Or can you do what I did, ignore it (for me it was just one of the
wingtrip stripes though). About a year later the clearcoat is gone and
it looks great again.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

Dave Stadt wrote:
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> s.com...
> >
> > Dave Stadt wrote:
> >> "Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
> >> . ..
> >> House of Kolor recommends doing just that. It provides a finish between
> >> a
> >> single and two stage job.
> >
> > Just curious, is this just for darks or all colors?
> >
> > -Robert
>
> I only have experience with black for which they recommend up to 50 percent
> clear in the last coat for added depth, gloss and color.

Ok, that may be true. The shop I was dealing with was looking at a
plane with white paint and clearcoat. The paint manager was just
shaking his head say someone had gone to the "I'll paint any car for
$99.95" guy.

-Robert