Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

[A Lieberma]

Was out doing approaches this morning to knock off the rust.

Called into JAN approach and requested ILS approaches into HKS under visual
rules.

Was 5 miles outside Brenz final approach fix and received the clearance;
Cleared for the ILS 16 approach or circle to land 34 Hawkins.

Exactly what is expected for a circle to land? Should I jog over to the
right of the runway on my descent and enter downwind? At what altitude?
The airport terminal is immediately to the right as well as the tower.

Winds were 290 at 8 knots under VMC.

Allen

[Sam Spade]

A Lieberma wrote:
> Was out doing approaches this morning to knock off the rust.
>
> Called into JAN approach and requested ILS approaches into HKS under visual
> rules.
>
> Was 5 miles outside Brenz final approach fix and received the clearance;
> Cleared for the ILS 16 approach or circle to land 34 Hawkins.
>
The clearance, as you state it, does not make sense.

Could it have been, "Cleared for the ILS 16 approach. Circle to land
Runway 34."

You could have then requested clearance to land Runway 16.

Or you could have circled-to-land following the normal VFR pattern for
the airport since the weather was VFR. Circle-to-land needs to be
modified to conform to local traffic expectations when the weather is good.

[Mark Hansen]

On 12/22/06 14:46, A Lieberma wrote:
> Was out doing approaches this morning to knock off the rust.
>
> Called into JAN approach and requested ILS approaches into HKS under visual
> rules.
>
> Was 5 miles outside Brenz final approach fix and received the clearance;
> Cleared for the ILS 16 approach or circle to land 34 Hawkins.

As Sam said, I don't know why they would have said this. Presumably, the
approach controller know whether you intended to terminate your approach
with a missed approach or landing - is that true?

If you intended to land, then the clearance would (should) have been given
as Sam said.

>
> Exactly what is expected for a circle to land? Should I jog over to the
> right of the runway on my descent and enter downwind? At what altitude?

The pattern you execute depends on a lot of factors, among them are the
geometry between the approach course and the designated landing runway
and the pattern in use or requested by the tower.

For training at the local towered airport here in Sacramento, they
expect the airplane to descend to circling minimums and fly a modified
pattern (at circling alt and closer in to the runway).

In our case, the approach and landing runways are opposite ends of
the same pavement, so we just turn 45 degrees toward the downwind leg,
and turn downwind once we get there. This way, we can keep the airport
in sight (practicing for low visibility).

When I've flown circle to land maneuvers at non-towered fields, I've
descended to the standard TPA and joined the pattern (this assumes
VMC, of course).

> The airport terminal is immediately to the right as well as the tower.
>
> Winds were 290 at 8 knots under VMC.
>
> Allen



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
A Lieberma > wrote:

> Was out doing approaches this morning to knock off the rust.
>
> Called into JAN approach and requested ILS approaches into HKS under visual
> rules.
>
> Was 5 miles outside Brenz final approach fix and received the clearance;
> Cleared for the ILS 16 approach or circle to land 34 Hawkins.
>
> Exactly what is expected for a circle to land? Should I jog over to the
> right of the runway on my descent and enter downwind? At what altitude?
> The airport terminal is immediately to the right as well as the tower.
>
> Winds were 290 at 8 knots under VMC.
>
> Allen

With winds 290 @ 8, landing 16 vs. landing 34 means taking a 5 kt tailwind
instead of a 5 kt headwind. It's a 5400 foot runway; you didn't say what
you were flying, but I'm guessing 5400 feet is about 3 times what you
really need. On a real approach in IMC (especially at night), I'd take the
5 kt tailwind over circling to land any day.

But, if it's day VFR and you want to practice the CTL maneuver, you need to
negotiate with the tower. If you're the only one around, they'll let you
do anything you want. You can come down to the circling MDA of 940 MSL
(598 AGL) on the ILS. Once you've got the runway in sight, you can
maneuver to enter a left or right downwind at your option. If you have the
runway in sight higher than the MDA, you can (and probably should) do your
circling at that higher altitude.

In reality, if there's any traffic at all, the tower will give you circling
instructions.

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: A Lieberma ]
> Posted At: Friday, December 22, 2006 4:46 PM
> Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
> Conversation: Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?
> Subject: Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?
>
> Was out doing approaches this morning to knock off the rust.
>
> Called into JAN approach and requested ILS approaches into HKS under
> visual
> rules.
>
> Was 5 miles outside Brenz final approach fix and received the
clearance;
> Cleared for the ILS 16 approach or circle to land 34 Hawkins.
>
> Exactly what is expected for a circle to land? Should I jog over to
the
> right of the runway on my descent and enter downwind? At what
altitude?
> The airport terminal is immediately to the right as well as the tower.
>
> Winds were 290 at 8 knots under VMC.
>
> Allen

Al,
Since your question seems to be more about the mechanics of the
process than the clearance terminology, my approach has always been to
circle such that I can keep a visual on the landing zone. That typically
means a left circle regardless of what the published traffic pattern
might be.

Since circle to land is published for a fixed altitude, I am
assured of obstacle clearance no matter which direction I turn. I just
prefer to keep the old Mk1 eyeball on the target throughout the
approach.

Circle to land at minimums is a very exciting end to a journey
and usually reminds me exactly how small my bladder happens to be. I
need all the advantage I can get so the left turns help out.

[Stan Prevost]

I'm not sure why JAN approach was giving you landing instructions.
Shouldn't that be left for the HKS tower, after approach control had
sequenced you in for the approach?




"A Lieberma" > wrote in message
. 18...
> Was out doing approaches this morning to knock off the rust.
>
> Called into JAN approach and requested ILS approaches into HKS under
> visual
> rules.
>
> Was 5 miles outside Brenz final approach fix and received the clearance;
> Cleared for the ILS 16 approach or circle to land 34 Hawkins.
>
> Exactly what is expected for a circle to land? Should I jog over to the
> right of the runway on my descent and enter downwind? At what altitude?
> The airport terminal is immediately to the right as well as the tower.
>
> Winds were 290 at 8 knots under VMC.
>
> Allen

[A Lieberma]

Sam Spade > wrote in
:

> Could it have been, "Cleared for the ILS 16 approach. Circle to land
> Runway 34."

You are correct Sam, that was the clearance. The word or wasn't in the ATC
transmission.

> You could have then requested clearance to land Runway 16.

I took it as a "choice" rather then a directive? If so, then I messed up
big time?

Tower cleared me to land 16 when I checked in.

Allen

[A Lieberma]

Mark Hansen > wrote in
:

> On 12/22/06 14:46, A Lieberma wrote:
>> Was out doing approaches this morning to knock off the rust.
>>
>> Called into JAN approach and requested ILS approaches into HKS under
>> visual rules.
>>
>> Was 5 miles outside Brenz final approach fix and received the
>> clearance; Cleared for the ILS 16 approach or circle to land 34
>> Hawkins.
>
> As Sam said, I don't know why they would have said this. Presumably,
> the approach controller know whether you intended to terminate your
> approach with a missed approach or landing - is that true?

I had requested an ILS approach after the approach when I received the
clearance, so approach knew I wasn't doing a full stop.

> When I've flown circle to land maneuvers at non-towered fields, I've
> descended to the standard TPA and joined the pattern (this assumes
> VMC, of course).

Before I got my Garmin 430, all I could do was circle to land at my home
airport KMBO. Even with my new addition, I request the VOR Alpha as it
makes it real easy to join the pattern when VFR traffic in the mix.

Allen

[A Lieberma]

"Stan Prevost" > wrote in news:eff0b$458c81cd$18d6a007
:

> I'm not sure why JAN approach was giving you landing instructions.
> Shouldn't that be left for the HKS tower, after approach control had
> sequenced you in for the approach?

Dunno Jim,

In my short IFR career, JAN approach has always given me landing
instructions (letter of agreement?)

Anytime I talk with HKS, they clear me to land, option or low approach.

Allen

[A Lieberma]

"Jim Carter" > wrote in news:001701c7262a$f464b0f0
$4b01a8c0@omnibook6100:

> Al,
> Since your question seems to be more about the mechanics of the
> process than the clearance terminology, my approach has always been to
> circle such that I can keep a visual on the landing zone. That
typically
> means a left circle regardless of what the published traffic pattern
> might be.
>
> Since circle to land is published for a fixed altitude, I am
> assured of obstacle clearance no matter which direction I turn. I just
> prefer to keep the old Mk1 eyeball on the target throughout the
> approach.
>
> Circle to land at minimums is a very exciting end to a journey
> and usually reminds me exactly how small my bladder happens to be. I
> need all the advantage I can get so the left turns help out.

Thanks Jim!

Yes, when it's a long trip, anything to shorten the approach phase is
always appreciated when "nature calls" *big smile*.

I am used to circle to approach landings at my own airport, just never
had one for opposite ends of the runway

Allen

[Sam Spade]

Jim Carter wrote:

>
> Since circle to land is published for a fixed altitude, I am
> assured of obstacle clearance no matter which direction I turn. I just
> prefer to keep the old Mk1 eyeball on the target throughout the
> approach.

Just don't miss the occasional note that prohibits circling on one side
of some airports.

[Sam Spade]

Stan Prevost wrote:
> I'm not sure why JAN approach was giving you landing instructions.
> Shouldn't that be left for the HKS tower, after approach control had
> sequenced you in for the approach?
>
>

Not accoring to 7110.85P:

4-8-6. CIRCLING APPROACH

a. Circling approach instructions may only be given for aircraft
landing at airports with operational control towers.

b. Include in the approach clearance instructions to circle to the
runway in use if landing will be made on a runway other than that
aligned with the direction of instrument approach. When the direction of
the circling maneuver in relation to the airport/runway is required,
state the direction (eight cardinal compass points) and specify a left
or right base/downwind leg as appropriate.

[Stan Prevost]

Thanks, I knew I should have looked it up first. I have never received
landing instructions other than from a tower, but I see why from the rule.
I haven't had to circle to land at a towered field other than on a
circling-only approach. Approach Control has given me approach clearance,
but left the circling instructions to the tower. The rule is slightly
amgiuous, seems to be written on the assumption that the approach from which
circling will commence is aligned with a runway, and may or may not include
circling-only approaches arriving at 90 degrees to any runway. I will
assume that it was meant to include those approaches also.

On further thought, maybe I lied. Several years ago, I flew an ILS into
KORL with a strong tailwind, circle to land on another runway, at night when
the other ILS was OTS. I don't remember the exact sequence of events, but I
think Orlando Approach (KMCO) sequenced me in and cleared me for the ILS,
told me to expect to circle to land on the other runway, but the tower
actually handled the circling. That was a harrowing experience, with all
the turbulence, and trying to circle over the city and find runway lights
and to follow one or two other aircraft that couldn't be seen amongst the
lights. We certainly had to circle more than 1.3 nm from the runways, but I
can't remember the altitude. I'm pretty sure it was above circling minimum.


"Sam Spade" > wrote in message
...
> Stan Prevost wrote:
>> I'm not sure why JAN approach was giving you landing instructions.
>> Shouldn't that be left for the HKS tower, after approach control had
>> sequenced you in for the approach?
>>
>>
>
> Not accoring to 7110.85P:
>
> 4-8-6. CIRCLING APPROACH
>
> a. Circling approach instructions may only be given for aircraft landing
> at airports with operational control towers.
>
> b. Include in the approach clearance instructions to circle to the runway
> in use if landing will be made on a runway other than that aligned with
> the direction of instrument approach. When the direction of the circling
> maneuver in relation to the airport/runway is required, state the
> direction (eight cardinal compass points) and specify a left or right
> base/downwind leg as appropriate.
>

[Mark Hansen]

On 12/22/06 21:06, A Lieberma wrote:
> Mark Hansen > wrote in
> :
>
>> On 12/22/06 14:46, A Lieberma wrote:
>>> Was out doing approaches this morning to knock off the rust.
>>>
>>> Called into JAN approach and requested ILS approaches into HKS under
>>> visual rules.
>>>
>>> Was 5 miles outside Brenz final approach fix and received the
>>> clearance; Cleared for the ILS 16 approach or circle to land 34
>>> Hawkins.
>>
>> As Sam said, I don't know why they would have said this. Presumably,
>> the approach controller know whether you intended to terminate your
>> approach with a missed approach or landing - is that true?
>
> I had requested an ILS approach after the approach when I received the
> clearance, so approach knew I wasn't doing a full stop.

I would argue that ATC thought you *were* doing a full stop, otherwise
they wouldn't tell you to circle.

You either terminate with a missed approach or a landing. The missed
approach doesn't include a 'circle to land'.


>
>> When I've flown circle to land maneuvers at non-towered fields, I've
>> descended to the standard TPA and joined the pattern (this assumes
>> VMC, of course).
>
> Before I got my Garmin 430, all I could do was circle to land at my home
> airport KMBO. Even with my new addition, I request the VOR Alpha as it
> makes it real easy to join the pattern when VFR traffic in the mix.
>
> Allen



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Mark Hansen]

On 12/22/06 16:40, Jim Carter wrote:
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: A Lieberma ]
>> Posted At: Friday, December 22, 2006 4:46 PM
>> Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
>> Conversation: Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?
>> Subject: Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?
>>
>> Was out doing approaches this morning to knock off the rust.
>>
>> Called into JAN approach and requested ILS approaches into HKS under
>> visual
>> rules.
>>
>> Was 5 miles outside Brenz final approach fix and received the
> clearance;
>> Cleared for the ILS 16 approach or circle to land 34 Hawkins.
>>
>> Exactly what is expected for a circle to land? Should I jog over to
> the
>> right of the runway on my descent and enter downwind? At what
> altitude?
>> The airport terminal is immediately to the right as well as the tower.
>>
>> Winds were 290 at 8 knots under VMC.
>>
>> Allen
>
> Al,
> Since your question seems to be more about the mechanics of the
> process than the clearance terminology, my approach has always been to
> circle such that I can keep a visual on the landing zone. That typically
> means a left circle regardless of what the published traffic pattern
> might be.
>
> Since circle to land is published for a fixed altitude, I am

Minimum altitude, not fixed, right?

> assured of obstacle clearance no matter which direction I turn. I just

Actually, the IAP may prohibit circling to one side or the other.

> prefer to keep the old Mk1 eyeball on the target throughout the
> approach.
>
> Circle to land at minimums is a very exciting end to a journey
> and usually reminds me exactly how small my bladder happens to be. I
> need all the advantage I can get so the left turns help out.
>
>



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Mark Hansen]

On 12/22/06 21:11, A Lieberma wrote:
> "Jim Carter" > wrote in news:001701c7262a$f464b0f0
> $4b01a8c0@omnibook6100:
>
>> Al,
>> Since your question seems to be more about the mechanics of the
>> process than the clearance terminology, my approach has always been to
>> circle such that I can keep a visual on the landing zone. That
> typically
>> means a left circle regardless of what the published traffic pattern
>> might be.
>>
>> Since circle to land is published for a fixed altitude, I am
>> assured of obstacle clearance no matter which direction I turn. I just
>> prefer to keep the old Mk1 eyeball on the target throughout the
>> approach.
>>
>> Circle to land at minimums is a very exciting end to a journey
>> and usually reminds me exactly how small my bladder happens to be. I
>> need all the advantage I can get so the left turns help out.
>
> Thanks Jim!
>
> Yes, when it's a long trip, anything to shorten the approach phase is
> always appreciated when "nature calls" *big smile*.
>
> I am used to circle to approach landings at my own airport, just never
> had one for opposite ends of the runway

The circle to land is required anytime the landing runway is more than
a set number of degrees from the approach course (I can't remember the
exact number of degrees - maybe 10 or 30?). Obviously, the runway opposite
to the approach course would qualify ;-)

>
> Allen



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Jose[_1_]]

> You either terminate with a missed approach or a landing. The missed
> approach doesn't include a 'circle to land'.

A clearance for a missed doesn't include a clearance for a circle, but
one can certainly go missed after circling.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
Jose > wrote:

> > You either terminate with a missed approach or a landing. The missed
> > approach doesn't include a 'circle to land'.
>
> A clearance for a missed doesn't include a clearance for a circle, but
> one can certainly go missed after circling.
>
> Jose

Just to be clear about this...

Let's say the airport is using 34, and you're cleared by approach control
for the ILS-16 circle to 34 in VFR conditions as a practice approach. It
would be a very poor idea indeed for you to execute the circling maneuver,
do a low approach, then decide to execute the published missed on your own.
This would have you swimming upstream against the traffic on final for 34.

If that's what you really want to do, make sure you verify your intentions
with the tower. If there's no conflicting traffic, they should be able to
let you do it, but that would be unusual. When I'm with a student,
negotiating these sorts of things with ATC is part of my job.

[Sam Spade]

Mark Hansen wrote:

>
> The circle to land is required anytime the landing runway is more than
> a set number of degrees from the approach course (I can't remember the
> exact number of degrees - maybe 10 or 30?). Obviously, the runway opposite
> to the approach course would qualify ;-)

30 degrees for ground based, 15 for RNAV.

Also, descent gradient limitations, straight-has to be to TDZ; circling
just to MDA.

And, a third, less often an issue, are limitations on the electronic
guidance's proximity to the runway centerline, extended.

[ghogue]

Stan Prevost Wrote:
> I'm not sure why JAN approach was giving you landing instructions.
> Shouldn't that be left for the HKS tower, after approach control had
> sequenced you in for the approach?
>
>
> Stan,
> Approach needs to inform you if you are circling to another runway in
> order for you to determine which minimums to use. It would probably be
> to late to plan a "circling" maneuver if you weren't informed until
> handed off to tower.


--
ghogue
Posted at www.flight.org

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 15:26:46 -0800, Sam Spade wrote
(in article >):

>
> Or you could have circled-to-land following the normal VFR pattern for
> the airport since the weather was VFR. Circle-to-land needs to be
> modified to conform to local traffic expectations when the weather is good.

Why? Most towers expect you to circle at the circling minima. They will tell
you if they want you to do something else.

OTOH, if you are going to break off the instrument approach in order to
accommodate the unfounded expectations of VFR traffic, you should probably
cancel IFR considerably before you enter the pattern for either runway,
remembering that once you do that you have to follow cloud clearance rules.

[Sam Spade]

C J Campbell wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 15:26:46 -0800, Sam Spade wrote
> (in article >):
>
>
>>Or you could have circled-to-land following the normal VFR pattern for
>>the airport since the weather was VFR. Circle-to-land needs to be
>>modified to conform to local traffic expectations when the weather is good.
>
>
> Why? Most towers expect you to circle at the circling minima. They will tell
> you if they want you to do something else.

Why do you think they would expect you to disregard local traffic
pattern and perhaps noise abatement procedures when the Class D surface
area is VFR? If it is a training flight I would certainly make it clear
with them before I descended to the circling MDA (assuming here that it
is significantly lower than standard traffic pattern altitude).

>
> OTOH, if you are going to break off the instrument approach in order to
> accommodate the unfounded expectations of VFR traffic, you should probably
> cancel IFR considerably before you enter the pattern for either runway,
> remembering that once you do that you have to follow cloud clearance rules.
>
Unfounded expectation?

As to your advice to cancel, that is my option to exercise depending
upon the circumstances. Perhaps the weather is 1,500 overcast and 4
miles. I would like to preserve my IFR clearance at a one runway airport.

[fcoav8r]

Roy Smith wrote:
> In article >,
> Jose > wrote:
>
> Let's say the airport is using 34, and you're cleared by approach control
> for the ILS-16 circle to 34 in VFR conditions as a practice approach. It
> would be a very poor idea indeed for you to execute the circling maneuver,
> do a low approach, then decide to execute the published missed on your own.
> This would have you swimming upstream against the traffic on final for 34.

Well, the way we are supposed to execute a missed approach is turn
towards the airport environment and then fly the procedure as published
unless otherwise told by ATC. So, if shooting the ILS-16 CTL 34 the
Pilot would fly the published MAP for the ILS-16 approach. If he
looses visual reference with the runway on downwind 34 he sould make an
initial climbing (90º) turn towards the runway (not necessary if
already on base) and then once he estimates he is over the runway, he
should execute the MAP as published unless otherwise told or vectored
by ATC.

While I'm here I have an interesting one for you:

You are on the LOC rwy 16 approach and (because you reached the MDA
close to the MAP) you are in a position in which you are to too high to
make a safe landing. Wind precludes landing on rwy 34.

Is it legal to circle to land all the way round to rwy 16 provided you
remain in the CTL protected area?

I was told by a Pilot Controller Journalist that although maybe not
safe, he could not see any reason why it wouldn't be perfectly legal.

Can you discuss the uncontrolled and controlled field issues associated
with this ?

Your points of view are welcome.

Thanks

[Doug[_1_]]

In general you are not supposed to turn a botched ILS into a circle to
land. Go missed and come in again.

[fcoav8r]

Hi Doug and Merry Christmas

The question was geared towards non precsion approaches such as LOC,
VOR NDB.

Doug wrote:
> In general you are not supposed to turn a botched ILS into a circle to
> land. Go missed and come in again.

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug ]
> Posted At: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 8:47 AM
> Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
> Conversation: Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?
> Subject: Re: Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?
>
> In general you are not supposed to turn a botched ILS into a circle to
> land. Go missed and come in again.

The question was about a LOC 16, not the ILS so the minimums would have
been higher. Also, the question was about legality not good operating
sense. ;-)

Since you are cleared for the approach, the airspace is yours until you
land, miss, or land harder. Assuming the MDA is at least 600' in a light
aircraft I'd probably be inclined to execute the 360 overhead - after
all, the old pattern altitudes used to be 800' and the 600' would keep
me above obstructions in the immediate vicinity.

Here's another good reason for not shooting LOCs into short fields.

[Jose[_1_]]

> You are on the LOC rwy 16 approach and (because you reached the MDA
> close to the MAP) you are in a position in which you are to too high to
> make a safe landing. Wind precludes landing on rwy 34.
>
> Is it legal to circle to land all the way round to rwy 16 provided you
> remain in the CTL protected area?

I would say yes, so long as you are above the circle-to-land minima.
Remember, they are usually higher than a straight-in. I presume you
were expecting to land straight in and thus descended to the straight-in
MDA.

Now, suppose you did that... would it be legal to climb to the circle
MDA and circle all the way around? I don't see why not, so long as you
remain visual.

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Mark Hansen]

On 12/26/06 05:49, Sam Spade wrote:
> C J Campbell wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 15:26:46 -0800, Sam Spade wrote
>> (in article >):
>>
>>
>>>Or you could have circled-to-land following the normal VFR pattern for
>>>the airport since the weather was VFR. Circle-to-land needs to be
>>>modified to conform to local traffic expectations when the weather is good.
>>
>>
>> Why? Most towers expect you to circle at the circling minima. They will tell
>> you if they want you to do something else.
>
> Why do you think they would expect you to disregard local traffic
> pattern and perhaps noise abatement procedures when the Class D surface
> area is VFR?

Because you're flying a practice IAP.

> If it is a training flight I would certainly make it clear
> with them before I descended to the circling MDA (assuming here that it
> is significantly lower than standard traffic pattern altitude).

That was done by asking to fly the approach, and getting the (practice)
clearance from ATC and them handing the flight off to the tower.

At least at the towers I've practiced at, they've expected me to fly
the circling maneuver, and they've accommodated it as necessary. After
all, the circling maneuver is part of what I want to practice.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Sam Spade]

Jose wrote:
>> You are on the LOC rwy 16 approach and (because you reached the MDA
>> close to the MAP) you are in a position in which you are to too high to
>> make a safe landing. Wind precludes landing on rwy 34.
>>
>> Is it legal to circle to land all the way round to rwy 16 provided you
>> remain in the CTL protected area?
>
>
> I would say yes, so long as you are above the circle-to-land minima.
> Remember, they are usually higher than a straight-in. I presume you
> were expecting to land straight in and thus descended to the straight-in
> MDA.
>
> Now, suppose you did that... would it be legal to climb to the circle
> MDA and circle all the way around? I don't see why not, so long as you
> remain visual.
>
> Jose

If you have the required flight visibility required for circle-to-land
what you suggest would be legal and (assuming a good skill level)
possibly preferable to doing the miss and starting all over again.

[Mark Hansen]

On 12/26/06 07:46, Jose wrote:
>> You are on the LOC rwy 16 approach and (because you reached the MDA
>> close to the MAP) you are in a position in which you are to too high to
>> make a safe landing. Wind precludes landing on rwy 34.
>>
>> Is it legal to circle to land all the way round to rwy 16 provided you
>> remain in the CTL protected area?
>
> I would say yes, so long as you are above the circle-to-land minima.
> Remember, they are usually higher than a straight-in. I presume you
> were expecting to land straight in and thus descended to the straight-in
> MDA.
>
> Now, suppose you did that... would it be legal to climb to the circle
> MDA and circle all the way around? I don't see why not, so long as you
> remain visual.

The regs say that if you're below the minimum, you must execute a missed
approach. If you're below the circling minima when you decide to execute
the circle maneuver, then you must execute the missed approach.

Now, if you say you climbed back up to circling minima and *then* decided
to execute the circling maneuver, you'd be lying and it would be obvious.

If the winds really did preclude a landing on 34, shouldn't you have known
that before flying the ILS to minimums?


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Sam Spade]

Mark Hansen wrote:
> On 12/26/06 05:49, Sam Spade wrote:
>
>>C J Campbell wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 15:26:46 -0800, Sam Spade wrote
>>>(in article >):
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Or you could have circled-to-land following the normal VFR pattern for
>>>>the airport since the weather was VFR. Circle-to-land needs to be
>>>>modified to conform to local traffic expectations when the weather is good.
>>>
>>>
>>>Why? Most towers expect you to circle at the circling minima. They will tell
>>>you if they want you to do something else.
>>
>>Why do you think they would expect you to disregard local traffic
>>pattern and perhaps noise abatement procedures when the Class D surface
>>area is VFR?
>
>
> Because you're flying a practice IAP.
>
>
>> If it is a training flight I would certainly make it clear
>>with them before I descended to the circling MDA (assuming here that it
>>is significantly lower than standard traffic pattern altitude).
>
>
> That was done by asking to fly the approach, and getting the (practice)
> clearance from ATC and them handing the flight off to the tower.
>
> At least at the towers I've practiced at, they've expected me to fly
> the circling maneuver, and they've accommodated it as necessary. After
> all, the circling maneuver is part of what I want to practice.
>
>
If it is an airport you're familiar with, and you have no doubt they
accept it, fine. There are a lot of noise sensitive airprots, at least
in my area, where it is presumed you will follow the traffic patterns in
use and established noise abatement procedures when the place is VFR.

If uncertain, it is follow to descent to 450 feet, HAA without a very
clear understanding.

[Sam Spade]

Mark Hansen wrote:

> On 12/26/06 07:46, Jose wrote:
>
>>>You are on the LOC rwy 16 approach and (because you reached the MDA
>>>close to the MAP) you are in a position in which you are to too high to
>>>make a safe landing. Wind precludes landing on rwy 34.
>>>
>>>Is it legal to circle to land all the way round to rwy 16 provided you
>>>remain in the CTL protected area?
>>
>>I would say yes, so long as you are above the circle-to-land minima.
>>Remember, they are usually higher than a straight-in. I presume you
>>were expecting to land straight in and thus descended to the straight-in
>>MDA.
>>
>>Now, suppose you did that... would it be legal to climb to the circle
>>MDA and circle all the way around? I don't see why not, so long as you
>>remain visual.
>
>
> The regs say that if you're below the minimum, you must execute a missed
> approach. If you're below the circling minima when you decide to execute
> the circle maneuver, then you must execute the missed approach.
>
> Now, if you say you climbed back up to circling minima and *then* decided
> to execute the circling maneuver, you'd be lying and it would be obvious.
>
> If the winds really did preclude a landing on 34, shouldn't you have known
> that before flying the ILS to minimums?
>
>
The regulation is written for flight conditions less than minimums.
Like I said, if he had the flight visibility for circling he would be
quite legal in doing what he proposed. And, the gears were shifted to
an NPA for the question.

[fcoav8r]

Jose and Mark

I forgot to mention that I assumed that either circling minimums were
equal to staright-in LOC minimums or for whatever reason, the aircraft
did not descend below circling minimums at any time.

Mark

The Pilot in this example was not shooting the ILS 34 but the LOC-16.
He finds himself seeing the runway to high to land on 16. Hope this
clarifies the situation.

I once did a CTL at the end of a VOR app on a very convective rainy
night. I made the runway but the Lear behind couldn't and missed.
Should I have been in the previously described situation I would have
rather done the 360 circling than going back into that s..t again.


Mark Hansen wrote:
> On 12/26/06 07:46, Jose wrote:
> >> You are on the LOC rwy 16 approach and (because you reached the MDA
> >> close to the MAP) you are in a position in which you are to too high to
> >> make a safe landing. Wind precludes landing on rwy 34.
> >>
> >> Is it legal to circle to land all the way round to rwy 16 provided you
> >> remain in the CTL protected area?
> >
> > I would say yes, so long as you are above the circle-to-land minima.
> > Remember, they are usually higher than a straight-in. I presume you
> > were expecting to land straight in and thus descended to the straight-in
> > MDA.
> >
> > Now, suppose you did that... would it be legal to climb to the circle
> > MDA and circle all the way around? I don't see why not, so long as you
> > remain visual.
>
> The regs say that if you're below the minimum, you must execute a missed
> approach. If you're below the circling minima when you decide to execute
> the circle maneuver, then you must execute the missed approach.
>
> Now, if you say you climbed back up to circling minima and *then* decided
> to execute the circling maneuver, you'd be lying and it would be obvious.
>
> If the winds really did preclude a landing on 34, shouldn't you have known
> that before flying the ILS to minimums?
>
>
> --
> Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
> Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
> Sacramento, CA

[Sam Spade]

fcoav8r wrote:
> Jose and Mark
>
> I forgot to mention that I assumed that either circling minimums were
> equal to staright-in LOC minimums or for whatever reason, the aircraft
> did not descend below circling minimums at any time.
>
> Mark
>
> The Pilot in this example was not shooting the ILS 34 but the LOC-16.
> He finds himself seeing the runway to high to land on 16. Hope this
> clarifies the situation.

And, if he has the required flight visibility for circle-to-land
minimums, and has not yet reached the MAP, he can climb tp the
circle-to-land MDA, then cirle to land, provided he still has the
require flight visibility and has sight of the airport.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Stan Prevost" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'm not sure why JAN approach was giving you landing instructions.
> Shouldn't that be left for the HKS tower, after approach control had
> sequenced you in for the approach?
>

JAN approach wasn't giving him landing instructions, they were giving him
circling instructions. Circling instructions are part of the approach
clearance.

[Sam Spade]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Stan Prevost" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I'm not sure why JAN approach was giving you landing instructions.
>>Shouldn't that be left for the HKS tower, after approach control had
>>sequenced you in for the approach?
>>
>
>
> JAN approach wasn't giving him landing instructions, they were giving him
> circling instructions. Circling instructions are part of the approach
> clearance.
>
>
If you would read the thread you would find out that was resolved
several days ago.

[franfuan]

Sam Spade ha escrito:

> And, if he has the required flight visibility for circle-to-land
> minimums, and has not yet reached the MAP, he can climb tp the
> circle-to-land MDA, then cirle to land, provided he still has the
> require flight visibility and has sight of the airport.

I believe you're right on the spot Sam.

So when shooting an ILS I memorize also the LOC and CTL minimums in
anticipation of plan B or C.

Happy New Year