Cleared for the ILS 16 or circle to land 34 question?

Was out doing approaches this morning to knock off the rust.

Called into JAN approach and requested ILS approaches into HKS under visual
rules.

Was 5 miles outside Brenz final approach fix and received the clearance;
Cleared for the ILS 16 approach or circle to land 34 Hawkins.

Exactly what is expected for a circle to land? Should I jog over to the
right of the runway on my descent and enter downwind? At what altitude?
The airport terminal is immediately to the right as well as the tower.

Winds were 290 at 8 knots under VMC.

Allen

A Lieberma wrote:
Was out doing approaches this morning to knock off the rust.

Called into JAN approach and requested ILS approaches into HKS under visual
rules.

Was 5 miles outside Brenz final approach fix and received the clearance;
Cleared for the ILS 16 approach or circle to land 34 Hawkins.

The clearance, as you state it, does not make sense.

Could it have been, "Cleared for the ILS 16 approach. Circle to land
Runway 34."

You could have then requested clearance to land Runway 16.

Or you could have circled-to-land following the normal VFR pattern for
the airport since the weather was VFR. Circle-to-land needs to be
modified to conform to local traffic expectations when the weather is good.

Sam Spade wrote in
:

Could it have been, "Cleared for the ILS 16 approach. Circle to land
Runway 34."

You are correct Sam, that was the clearance. The word or wasn't in the ATC
transmission.

You could have then requested clearance to land Runway 16.

I took it as a "choice" rather then a directive? If so, then I messed up
big time?

Tower cleared me to land 16 when I checked in.

Allen

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 15:26:46 -0800, Sam Spade wrote
(in article ):


Or you could have circled-to-land following the normal VFR pattern for
the airport since the weather was VFR. Circle-to-land needs to be
modified to conform to local traffic expectations when the weather is good.

Why? Most towers expect you to circle at the circling minima. They will tell
you if they want you to do something else.

OTOH, if you are going to break off the instrument approach in order to
accommodate the unfounded expectations of VFR traffic, you should probably
cancel IFR considerably before you enter the pattern for either runway,
remembering that once you do that you have to follow cloud clearance rules.

C J Campbell wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 15:26:46 -0800, Sam Spade wrote
(in article ):


Or you could have circled-to-land following the normal VFR pattern for
the airport since the weather was VFR. Circle-to-land needs to be
modified to conform to local traffic expectations when the weather is good.


Why? Most towers expect you to circle at the circling minima. They will tell
you if they want you to do something else.

Why do you think they would expect you to disregard local traffic
pattern and perhaps noise abatement procedures when the Class D surface
area is VFR? If it is a training flight I would certainly make it clear
with them before I descended to the circling MDA (assuming here that it
is significantly lower than standard traffic pattern altitude).


OTOH, if you are going to break off the instrument approach in order to
accommodate the unfounded expectations of VFR traffic, you should probably
cancel IFR considerably before you enter the pattern for either runway,
remembering that once you do that you have to follow cloud clearance rules.

Unfounded expectation?

As to your advice to cancel, that is my option to exercise depending
upon the circumstances. Perhaps the weather is 1,500 overcast and 4
miles. I would like to preserve my IFR clearance at a one runway airport.

On 12/26/06 05:49, Sam Spade wrote:
C J Campbell wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 15:26:46 -0800, Sam Spade wrote
(in article ):


Or you could have circled-to-land following the normal VFR pattern for
the airport since the weather was VFR. Circle-to-land needs to be
modified to conform to local traffic expectations when the weather is good.


Why? Most towers expect you to circle at the circling minima. They will tell
you if they want you to do something else.

Why do you think they would expect you to disregard local traffic
pattern and perhaps noise abatement procedures when the Class D surface
area is VFR?

Because you're flying a practice IAP.

If it is a training flight I would certainly make it clear
with them before I descended to the circling MDA (assuming here that it
is significantly lower than standard traffic pattern altitude).

That was done by asking to fly the approach, and getting the (practice)
clearance from ATC and them handing the flight off to the tower.

At least at the towers I've practiced at, they've expected me to fly
the circling maneuver, and they've accommodated it as necessary. After
all, the circling maneuver is part of what I want to practice.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

Mark Hansen wrote:
On 12/26/06 05:49, Sam Spade wrote:

C J Campbell wrote:

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 15:26:46 -0800, Sam Spade wrote
(in article ):



Or you could have circled-to-land following the normal VFR pattern for
the airport since the weather was VFR. Circle-to-land needs to be
modified to conform to local traffic expectations when the weather is good.


Why? Most towers expect you to circle at the circling minima. They will tell
you if they want you to do something else.

Why do you think they would expect you to disregard local traffic
pattern and perhaps noise abatement procedures when the Class D surface
area is VFR?


Because you're flying a practice IAP.


If it is a training flight I would certainly make it clear
with them before I descended to the circling MDA (assuming here that it
is significantly lower than standard traffic pattern altitude).


That was done by asking to fly the approach, and getting the (practice)
clearance from ATC and them handing the flight off to the tower.

At least at the towers I've practiced at, they've expected me to fly
the circling maneuver, and they've accommodated it as necessary. After
all, the circling maneuver is part of what I want to practice.


If it is an airport you're familiar with, and you have no doubt they
accept it, fine. There are a lot of noise sensitive airprots, at least
in my area, where it is presumed you will follow the traffic patterns in
use and established noise abatement procedures when the place is VFR.

If uncertain, it is follow to descent to 450 feet, HAA without a very
clear understanding.

On 12/22/06 14:46, A Lieberma wrote:
Was out doing approaches this morning to knock off the rust.

Called into JAN approach and requested ILS approaches into HKS under visual
rules.

Was 5 miles outside Brenz final approach fix and received the clearance;
Cleared for the ILS 16 approach or circle to land 34 Hawkins.

As Sam said, I don't know why they would have said this. Presumably, the
approach controller know whether you intended to terminate your approach
with a missed approach or landing - is that true?

If you intended to land, then the clearance would (should) have been given
as Sam said.


Exactly what is expected for a circle to land? Should I jog over to the
right of the runway on my descent and enter downwind? At what altitude?

The pattern you execute depends on a lot of factors, among them are the
geometry between the approach course and the designated landing runway
and the pattern in use or requested by the tower.

For training at the local towered airport here in Sacramento, they
expect the airplane to descend to circling minimums and fly a modified
pattern (at circling alt and closer in to the runway).

In our case, the approach and landing runways are opposite ends of
the same pavement, so we just turn 45 degrees toward the downwind leg,
and turn downwind once we get there. This way, we can keep the airport
in sight (practicing for low visibility).

When I've flown circle to land maneuvers at non-towered fields, I've
descended to the standard TPA and joined the pattern (this assumes
VMC, of course).

The airport terminal is immediately to the right as well as the tower.

Winds were 290 at 8 knots under VMC.

Allen



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

Mark Hansen wrote in
:

On 12/22/06 14:46, A Lieberma wrote:
Was out doing approaches this morning to knock off the rust.

Called into JAN approach and requested ILS approaches into HKS under
visual rules.

Was 5 miles outside Brenz final approach fix and received the
clearance; Cleared for the ILS 16 approach or circle to land 34
Hawkins.

As Sam said, I don't know why they would have said this. Presumably,
the approach controller know whether you intended to terminate your
approach with a missed approach or landing - is that true?

I had requested an ILS approach after the approach when I received the
clearance, so approach knew I wasn't doing a full stop.

When I've flown circle to land maneuvers at non-towered fields, I've
descended to the standard TPA and joined the pattern (this assumes
VMC, of course).

Before I got my Garmin 430, all I could do was circle to land at my home
airport KMBO. Even with my new addition, I request the VOR Alpha as it
makes it real easy to join the pattern when VFR traffic in the mix.

Allen

On 12/22/06 21:06, A Lieberma wrote:
Mark Hansen wrote in
:

On 12/22/06 14:46, A Lieberma wrote:
Was out doing approaches this morning to knock off the rust.

Called into JAN approach and requested ILS approaches into HKS under
visual rules.

Was 5 miles outside Brenz final approach fix and received the
clearance; Cleared for the ILS 16 approach or circle to land 34
Hawkins.

As Sam said, I don't know why they would have said this. Presumably,
the approach controller know whether you intended to terminate your
approach with a missed approach or landing - is that true?

I had requested an ILS approach after the approach when I received the
clearance, so approach knew I wasn't doing a full stop.

I would argue that ATC thought you *were* doing a full stop, otherwise
they wouldn't tell you to circle.

You either terminate with a missed approach or a landing. The missed
approach doesn't include a 'circle to land'.



When I've flown circle to land maneuvers at non-towered fields, I've
descended to the standard TPA and joined the pattern (this assumes
VMC, of course).

Before I got my Garmin 430, all I could do was circle to land at my home
airport KMBO. Even with my new addition, I request the VOR Alpha as it
makes it real easy to join the pattern when VFR traffic in the mix.

Allen



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA