Starter question

[A Lieberma]

Went flying today. Go to crank the engine for start, nothing. Turn the
key, got like a jiggle of the prop. Turn all electrical things off,
figuring the battery drained, and then started just the alt and bat, same
thing, jiggle of the prop. Tried once more, and got the prop to turn and
fired right up.

Just had the durn starter replaced in July with a new one.

I don't think it was the battery, as nothing moved when I turned the key,
just a strange noise, no clicking like it would sound with a dead
battery. When I fired up the master and alternator, I heard a noise
sounding like something was draining the battery, yet the meter was
stable in the middle, not indicating any discharge.

Last week, when I cranked it, it struggled on the first turn of the prop,
but it started, so I had attributed it to maybe my battery being low, it
being very cold by MS standards, but after today, watching the electrical
amnmeter, the load was fine once the engine was running.

Am I having a bad run of starters, or should I be looking elsewhere for a
problem?

Grant you, I try to fly two times a week, but I would think I would have
gotten more starts out of this starter then 6 months worth.

Plane normally starts with one or two turns of the prop, so it's not like
the starter is running for any period of time or been abused.

Allen

[[email protected]]

On Jan 29, 6:34 pm, A Lieberma > wrote:
> Went flying today. Go to crank the engine for start, nothing. Turn the
> key, got like a jiggle of the prop. Turn all electrical things off,
> figuring the battery drained, and then started just the alt and bat, same
> thing, jiggle of the prop. Tried once more, and got the prop to turn and
> fired right up.
>
> Just had the durn starter replaced in July with a new one.
>
> I don't think it was the battery, as nothing moved when I turned the key,
> just a strange noise, no clicking like it would sound with a dead
> battery. When I fired up the master and alternator, I heard a noise
> sounding like something was draining the battery, yet the meter was
> stable in the middle, not indicating any discharge.
>
> Last week, when I cranked it, it struggled on the first turn of the prop,
> but it started, so I had attributed it to maybe my battery being low, it
> being very cold by MS standards, but after today, watching the electrical
> amnmeter, the load was fine once the engine was running.
>
> Am I having a bad run of starters, or should I be looking elsewhere for a
> problem?
>
> Grant you, I try to fly two times a week, but I would think I would have
> gotten more starts out of this starter then 6 months worth.
>
> Plane normally starts with one or two turns of the prop, so it's not like
> the starter is running for any period of time or been abused.
>
> Allen

Get a voltmeter and use the troubleshooting procedure outlined here...

http://www.skytecair.com/images/Troubleshooting
%20Diagram_5.0.pdf

Could be a cable problem or something similar. Take the starter to an
Autozone or similar store and have them test it for you (they can do
the same for your alternator).

Regards,
Bud

[A Lieberma]

wrote in
oups.com:

> Get a voltmeter and use the troubleshooting procedure outlined here...
>
> http://www.skytecair.com/images/Troubleshooting
> %20Diagram_5.0.pdf
>
> Could be a cable problem or something similar. Take the starter to an
> Autozone or similar store and have them test it for you (they can do
> the same for your alternator).

Tbanks Bud for the great reference!

Allen

[Kyle Boatright]

"A Lieberma" > wrote in message
. 18...
> Went flying today. Go to crank the engine for start, nothing. Turn the
> key, got like a jiggle of the prop. Turn all electrical things off,
> figuring the battery drained, and then started just the alt and bat, same
> thing, jiggle of the prop. Tried once more, and got the prop to turn and
> fired right up.
>
> Just had the durn starter replaced in July with a new one.
>
> I don't think it was the battery, as nothing moved when I turned the key,
> just a strange noise, no clicking like it would sound with a dead
> battery. When I fired up the master and alternator, I heard a noise
> sounding like something was draining the battery, yet the meter was
> stable in the middle, not indicating any discharge.
>
> Last week, when I cranked it, it struggled on the first turn of the prop,
> but it started, so I had attributed it to maybe my battery being low, it
> being very cold by MS standards, but after today, watching the electrical
> amnmeter, the load was fine once the engine was running.
>
> Am I having a bad run of starters, or should I be looking elsewhere for a
> problem?
>
> Grant you, I try to fly two times a week, but I would think I would have
> gotten more starts out of this starter then 6 months worth.
>
> Plane normally starts with one or two turns of the prop, so it's not like
> the starter is running for any period of time or been abused.
>
> Allen

Check to make sure your engine is properly grounded to the airframe.
Sometimes you get a loose connection, sometimes the connections corrode. In
either case, the juice may try and find an alternate path, which can ruin
throttle cables, P-leads, and other potential ground paths that are not
sized for starter sized loads.

KB

[Newps]

What engine?




A Lieberma wrote:
> Went flying today. Go to crank the engine for start, nothing. Turn the
> key, got like a jiggle of the prop. Turn all electrical things off,
> figuring the battery drained, and then started just the alt and bat, same
> thing, jiggle of the prop. Tried once more, and got the prop to turn and
> fired right up.
>
> Just had the durn starter replaced in July with a new one.
>
> I don't think it was the battery, as nothing moved when I turned the key,
> just a strange noise, no clicking like it would sound with a dead
> battery. When I fired up the master and alternator, I heard a noise
> sounding like something was draining the battery, yet the meter was
> stable in the middle, not indicating any discharge.
>
> Last week, when I cranked it, it struggled on the first turn of the prop,
> but it started, so I had attributed it to maybe my battery being low, it
> being very cold by MS standards, but after today, watching the electrical
> amnmeter, the load was fine once the engine was running.
>
> Am I having a bad run of starters, or should I be looking elsewhere for a
> problem?
>
> Grant you, I try to fly two times a week, but I would think I would have
> gotten more starts out of this starter then 6 months worth.
>
> Plane normally starts with one or two turns of the prop, so it's not like
> the starter is running for any period of time or been abused.
>
> Allen

[A Lieberma]

Newps > wrote in
:

> What engine?

Lycoming AK4 360 in my 76 Beech Sundowner.

Allen

[A Lieberma]

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in
:

> Check to make sure your engine is properly grounded to the airframe.
> Sometimes you get a loose connection, sometimes the connections
> corrode. In either case, the juice may try and find an alternate path,
> which can ruin throttle cables, P-leads, and other potential ground
> paths that are not sized for starter sized loads.

Thanks KB,

From hearing noises in the headset when I switch on the master, my thoughts
are it's a grounding or wiring problem. This was new on the last start,
never heard any type of electrical noises.

Will be sure to bring this up to my A&P.

Allen

[[email protected]]

A Lieberma > wrote:
> Went flying today. Go to crank the engine for start, nothing. Turn the
> key, got like a jiggle of the prop. Turn all electrical things off,
> figuring the battery drained, and then started just the alt and bat, same
> thing, jiggle of the prop. Tried once more, and got the prop to turn and
> fired right up.

> Just had the durn starter replaced in July with a new one.

> I don't think it was the battery, as nothing moved when I turned the key,
> just a strange noise, no clicking like it would sound with a dead
> battery. When I fired up the master and alternator, I heard a noise
> sounding like something was draining the battery, yet the meter was
> stable in the middle, not indicating any discharge.

> Last week, when I cranked it, it struggled on the first turn of the prop,
> but it started, so I had attributed it to maybe my battery being low, it
> being very cold by MS standards, but after today, watching the electrical
> amnmeter, the load was fine once the engine was running.

> Am I having a bad run of starters, or should I be looking elsewhere for a
> problem?

> Grant you, I try to fly two times a week, but I would think I would have
> gotten more starts out of this starter then 6 months worth.

> Plane normally starts with one or two turns of the prop, so it's not like
> the starter is running for any period of time or been abused.

> Allen

Connection corrosion is common.

To see if that's the problem, go to each connection, both on the + and
- side of the battery, loosen it just enough to be able to wiggle the
wire/connector a few times to break through any corrosion and retighten.

There is probably a connection from the - side to the engine, and
engine to airframe; don't forget that one because if that one has
problems all kind of bad things can happen.

If this solves the problem, it will likely only solve it temporarily,
in which case you need take each connection apart and clean it up until
the metal is shiny.

This check is at least free other than some time spent.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

A Lieberma wrote:
>
>
> Am I having a bad run of starters, or should I be looking elsewhere for a
> problem?

Once it started, was the ammeter displaying a similar indication as it
does after a start?

We've had one occasion where we had dirty battery terminals and another
where the battery was heading south. With the dirty terminals, the
ammeter didn't show a strong charge after start. With the bad battery,
the ammeter showed a much higher after start charge rate. When all is
normal, the reading was in between the two.

We also changed our '76 Sundowner starter in July, but it got stuck
engaged twice.

[john smith]

Check the starter switch. The start contact may be worn out.

[Ronnie]

Allen,

What sort of starter do you have on the Sundower? I had a
starter problem in my 172 this summer which turned out to
be a bad contactor in the starter itself. Mine was a Skytech
permanent magnet type starter for Lycoming engines. It has
a contactor on the starter and this failed intermittenantly.
Once in a while, I hit the key and would only hear a click. By
the time I'd get the cowling off and a meter attached to trouble
shoot, the problem was gone. This went on for a couple of
months until it finally failed long enough for my to get a positive
diagnosis that it was the contactor mounted on the stater and
not the Cessna starter contactor mounted on the firewall which
I initially suspected. I sent the starter back to Skytech and
they fixed it. It was a common problem on early versions of
these starters when used in a high vibration environment. Pits
or groves get worn into the contact plate in the contactor and
don't make good connection some of the time.

What time of day yesterday did you go flying? The reason I ask
is because I was at MBO at 1:30 pm yesterday trying to get my Aztec
started. I also had problems. It was cold soaked from the 22 degree low
early Monday morning and even though the OAT had risen by
early afternoon the effects on the battery and the oil made the engine
very hard to get turning.

When I hit the right enginer starter, it just moaned, wiggled the
prop, and could not over come the compression. Same thing on
the left engine. I thought I was going to need external power
assist, but after waiting a couple of minutes to let the battery
recover after each try, I finally got enough movement of the
prop to get it turn over. It is a good than that those engines
fire up with not much cranking.

Is your airplane hangared in the hangar closest to the office? If
so, I think I saw it during my visit. I used to have an airplane
based at MBO back in the mid 80s before I move to Austin.
That was the first time I've been there since then. Nice to see
the airport is still going strong.

Ronnie



"A Lieberma" > wrote in message
. 18...
> Went flying today. Go to crank the engine for start, nothing. Turn the
> key, got like a jiggle of the prop. Turn all electrical things off,
> figuring the battery drained, and then started just the alt and bat, same
> thing, jiggle of the prop. Tried once more, and got the prop to turn and
> fired right up.
>
> Just had the durn starter replaced in July with a new one.
>
> I don't think it was the battery, as nothing moved when I turned the key,
> just a strange noise, no clicking like it would sound with a dead
> battery. When I fired up the master and alternator, I heard a noise
> sounding like something was draining the battery, yet the meter was
> stable in the middle, not indicating any discharge.
>
> Last week, when I cranked it, it struggled on the first turn of the prop,
> but it started, so I had attributed it to maybe my battery being low, it
> being very cold by MS standards, but after today, watching the electrical
> amnmeter, the load was fine once the engine was running.
>
> Am I having a bad run of starters, or should I be looking elsewhere for a
> problem?
>
> Grant you, I try to fly two times a week, but I would think I would have
> gotten more starts out of this starter then 6 months worth.
>
> Plane normally starts with one or two turns of the prop, so it's not like
> the starter is running for any period of time or been abused.
>
> Allen

[A Lieberma]

"Ronnie" > wrote in
. net:

Hey Ronnie,

Will post results in seperate post with an update subject line but to
answer your questions

> What time of day yesterday did you go flying? The reason I ask
> is because I was at MBO at 1:30 pm yesterday trying to get my Aztec
> started. I also had problems. It was cold soaked from the 22 degree
> low early Monday morning and even though the OAT had risen by
> early afternoon the effects on the battery and the oil made the engine
> very hard to get turning.

It was 4:00 in the afternoon. I thought the same thing.

> When I hit the right enginer starter, it just moaned, wiggled the
> prop, and could not over come the compression. Same thing on
> the left engine. I thought I was going to need external power
> assist, but after waiting a couple of minutes to let the battery
> recover after each try, I finally got enough movement of the
> prop to get it turn over. It is a good than that those engines
> fire up with not much cranking.

Same exact symptoms!

> Is your airplane hangared in the hangar closest to the office? If
> so, I think I saw it during my visit. I used to have an airplane
> based at MBO back in the mid 80s before I move to Austin.
> That was the first time I've been there since then. Nice to see
> the airport is still going strong.

I am tied down closest to the office outside the hangars. You would have
passed my plane on your left to the transient parking. Best looking
Sundowner on the ramp on my own subjective opinion :-)

Going strong is an understatement! When I returned for some touch and
goes, 5 planes in the pattern. This was the first time I ever was number
3 on final. I had to orbit east of the field so I could time my pattern
entry and merge into the traffic pattern just like an interstate :-)

Allen

[A Lieberma]

B A R R Y > wrote in
et:

> A Lieberma wrote:
>>
>>
>> Am I having a bad run of starters, or should I be looking elsewhere
>> for a problem?
>
> Once it started, was the ammeter displaying a similar indication as it
> does after a start?

Not so sure about that ammeter after what I learned.....

After start, it was in it's normal "charging" position after startup and by
the time I got to runup area, it was dab smack in the middle.

Allen

[A Lieberma]

A Lieberma > wrote in
. 18:

Update to the below posting.

My A&P pulled my plane in. Bear with me on this, but the bendex or
selenoids????? needed a good WD40ing and that fixed the starter problem.
MY GUESS is the cold weather gummed up the works? Dunno.

The starter is still in good shape from what my A&P said. It's an
prestolite starter for those that asked what kind of starter I had in my
plane.

I described the problem in the third paragraph in my original post,
initially, when he called me, he said I had a bad turn coordinator
causing the noise that I best described to him as a gyro winding down
after the master switch was put on.

He called me back a second time and said, it wasn't the turn coordinator
that was broken. The turn coordinator wasn't getting enough volts to
keep it running, so it would start up, and then shut down as the battery
was only putting out 9 volts.

I had a new battery installed in 02/03, so I guess I was on the end life
of the battery.

This should fix all problems (I hope) and will fly it in the pattern
tomorrow to make sure all systems are go.

Now, all of this raises a couple of question. Exactly what is the
ammeter for if I wasn't showing any sign of discharge on a battery not
running full tilt?

When I put the master on, it was exactly where it is everytime I started
the plane, with no sign if discharge. I know the meter works, as when I
put my landing light on, it will swing to the left. When I fire the
engine, the needle swings slightly right and settles back in the middle.

When the battery does go belly up, does the starter click like a car when
a bad battery is the problem?

Thanks all for the input!

Allen

> Went flying today. Go to crank the engine for start, nothing. Turn
> the key, got like a jiggle of the prop. Turn all electrical things
> off, figuring the battery drained, and then started just the alt and
> bat, same thing, jiggle of the prop. Tried once more, and got the
> prop to turn and fired right up.
>
> Just had the durn starter replaced in July with a new one.
>
> I don't think it was the battery, as nothing moved when I turned the
> key, just a strange noise, no clicking like it would sound with a dead
> battery. When I fired up the master and alternator, I heard a noise
> sounding like something was draining the battery, yet the meter was
> stable in the middle, not indicating any discharge.
>
> Last week, when I cranked it, it struggled on the first turn of the
> prop, but it started, so I had attributed it to maybe my battery being
> low, it being very cold by MS standards, but after today, watching the
> electrical amnmeter, the load was fine once the engine was running.
>
> Am I having a bad run of starters, or should I be looking elsewhere
> for a problem?
>
> Grant you, I try to fly two times a week, but I would think I would
> have gotten more starts out of this starter then 6 months worth.
>
> Plane normally starts with one or two turns of the prop, so it's not
> like the starter is running for any period of time or been abused.
>
> Allen
>

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"A Lieberma" > wrote in message
. 18...
>A Lieberma > wrote in
> . 18:
>
<...>
> Now, all of this raises a couple of question. Exactly what is the
> ammeter for if I wasn't showing any sign of discharge on a battery not
> running full tilt?
>

The ammeter tells you what is going in or out of the battery. It tells you
if the alternator is working - it tells you nothing about the condition of
the battery. If the battery were to fall out of the bottom of the aircraft
during flight, the ammeter would register 0 - nothing going in, nothing
going out.


> When I put the master on, it was exactly where it is everytime I started
> the plane, with no sign if discharge. I know the meter works, as when I
> put my landing light on, it will swing to the left. When I fire the
> engine, the needle swings slightly right and settles back in the middle.

So the battery was still connected and could still put out something.

>
> When the battery does go belly up, does the starter click like a car when
> a bad battery is the problem?

It can.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Kyle Boatright]

As a rule of thumb, the voltmeter gives you an indication of the condition
of your battery. Particularly before you hit the starter. At that time, it
tells you if your battery is fully charged to >13v or not.

An ammeter gives you an indication of the health of your charging system.
The specific information it gives is dependant on where the ammeter's shunt
is located.

If it is between the alternator and the master relay, it reads how many amps
your alternator is generating. If the shunt is between the master relay and
the battery, it tells whether your battery is charging or discharging, which
also reflects on the capacity of your alternator.

KB


"A Lieberma" > wrote in message
. 18...
>A Lieberma > wrote in
> . 18:
>
> Update to the below posting.
>
> My A&P pulled my plane in. Bear with me on this, but the bendex or
> selenoids????? needed a good WD40ing and that fixed the starter problem.
> MY GUESS is the cold weather gummed up the works? Dunno.
>
> The starter is still in good shape from what my A&P said. It's an
> prestolite starter for those that asked what kind of starter I had in my
> plane.
>
> I described the problem in the third paragraph in my original post,
> initially, when he called me, he said I had a bad turn coordinator
> causing the noise that I best described to him as a gyro winding down
> after the master switch was put on.
>
> He called me back a second time and said, it wasn't the turn coordinator
> that was broken. The turn coordinator wasn't getting enough volts to
> keep it running, so it would start up, and then shut down as the battery
> was only putting out 9 volts.
>
> I had a new battery installed in 02/03, so I guess I was on the end life
> of the battery.
>
> This should fix all problems (I hope) and will fly it in the pattern
> tomorrow to make sure all systems are go.
>
> Now, all of this raises a couple of question. Exactly what is the
> ammeter for if I wasn't showing any sign of discharge on a battery not
> running full tilt?
>
> When I put the master on, it was exactly where it is everytime I started
> the plane, with no sign if discharge. I know the meter works, as when I
> put my landing light on, it will swing to the left. When I fire the
> engine, the needle swings slightly right and settles back in the middle.
>
> When the battery does go belly up, does the starter click like a car when
> a bad battery is the problem?
>
> Thanks all for the input!
>
> Allen
>
>> Went flying today. Go to crank the engine for start, nothing. Turn
>> the key, got like a jiggle of the prop. Turn all electrical things
>> off, figuring the battery drained, and then started just the alt and
>> bat, same thing, jiggle of the prop. Tried once more, and got the
>> prop to turn and fired right up.
>>
>> Just had the durn starter replaced in July with a new one.
>>
>> I don't think it was the battery, as nothing moved when I turned the
>> key, just a strange noise, no clicking like it would sound with a dead
>> battery. When I fired up the master and alternator, I heard a noise
>> sounding like something was draining the battery, yet the meter was
>> stable in the middle, not indicating any discharge.
>>
>> Last week, when I cranked it, it struggled on the first turn of the
>> prop, but it started, so I had attributed it to maybe my battery being
>> low, it being very cold by MS standards, but after today, watching the
>> electrical amnmeter, the load was fine once the engine was running.
>>
>> Am I having a bad run of starters, or should I be looking elsewhere
>> for a problem?
>>
>> Grant you, I try to fly two times a week, but I would think I would
>> have gotten more starts out of this starter then 6 months worth.
>>
>> Plane normally starts with one or two turns of the prop, so it's not
>> like the starter is running for any period of time or been abused.
>>
>> Allen
>>
>

[Don Tuite]

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 23:42:17 GMT, A Lieberma >
wrote:

>Now, all of this raises a couple of question. Exactly what is the
>ammeter for if I wasn't showing any sign of discharge on a battery not
>running full tilt?

Sorry. I came in late.

Are we talking about a Piper?

If so, the "ammeter" is a "load" meter that reads current. It shows
how much current stuff in the airplane is sucking. If you have the
pitot and landing lights on, it should show a pretty heavy load. Most
of the time, it doesn't indicate much, because radios and stuff don't
present a very big load.

If we're not talking about a Piper, nevermind.

Don

[Blueskies]

> wrote in message oups.com...
: On Jan 29, 6:34 pm, A Lieberma > wrote:
: :
: Get a voltmeter and use the troubleshooting procedure outlined here...
:
: http://www.skytecair.com/images/Troubleshooting
: %20Diagram_5.0.pdf
:
: Could be a cable problem or something similar. Take the starter to an
: Autozone or similar store and have them test it for you (they can do
: the same for your alternator).
:
: Regards,
: Bud
:

1.66 megs:
http://www.skytecair.com/images/Troubleshooting%20Diagram_5.0.pdf

[David Lesher]

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> writes:

>> Now, all of this raises a couple of question. Exactly what is the
>> ammeter for if I wasn't showing any sign of discharge on a battery not
>> running full tilt?

>The [zero-center style] ammeter tells you what is going in or out
>of the battery. It tells you if the alternator is working - it tells
>you nothing [directly] about the condition of the battery.

[added]

But you can infer battery condition by observing trends.

Normally, at initial idle, the ammeter will show a loss; the alternator
is making less than needed and the battery is helping.

At runup, the ammeter will show a charge. This will hold true at taxi,
etc.

Eventually, the charge expended by starting/idle will be recouped
and the ammeter will center near zero. BUT exactly when happens
that, be it one min. after TO, or 10 or 100, is a function of many
things including other loads, how long it took to crank, age of the
battery, etc. But it's your bird, and it should act about the
same in the same circumstances.

1) If the battery is run down, say because you are a slacker and
did NOT go flying last week; there's more charging needed.

2) If the battery is barely run down at all, because you stopped for
fuel & the restart was warm & easy; it may recharge during that long
taxi.

3) When the battery gets really whipped, it won't take a charge;
i.e. it appears to recharge in far less time.

The "no crank" you experienced means insufficent voltage at the
starter innards. Its cause could be: discharged/bad battery [low
source voltage] or bad connections -- be they at the battery terminals,
the starter cables, the solonoid, or inside the starter.

I always suspect the grounds first, but YMMV.





--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[[email protected]]

On Jan 30, 5:00 pm, "Blueskies" > wrote:
> > wrote in ooglegroups.com...
>
> : On Jan 29, 6:34 pm, A Lieberma > wrote:
> : :
> : Get a voltmeter and use the troubleshooting procedure outlined here...
> :
> : http://www.skytecair.com/images/Troubleshooting
> : %20Diagram_5.0.pdf
> :
> : Could be a cable problem or something similar. Take the starter to an
> : Autozone or similar store and have them test it for you (they can do
> : the same for your alternator).
> :
> : Regards,
> : Bud
> :
>
> 1.66 megs:http://www.skytecair.com/images/Troubleshooting%20Diagram_5.0.pdf

Thanks for the re-post. Sorry about the wrap around URL.

Bud

[[email protected]]

On Jan 30, 3:42 pm, A Lieberma > wrote:
> A Lieberma > wrote 8.18:
>
> Update to the below posting.
>
> My A&P pulled my plane in. Bear with me on this, but the bendex or
> selenoids????? needed a good WD40ing and that fixed the starter problem.
> MY GUESS is the cold weather gummed up the works? Dunno.
>
> The starter is still in good shape from what my A&P said. It's an
> prestolite starter for those that asked what kind of starter I had in my
> plane.
>
> I described the problem in the third paragraph in my original post,
> initially, when he called me, he said I had a bad turn coordinator
> causing the noise that I best described to him as a gyro winding down
> after the master switch was put on.
>
> He called me back a second time and said, it wasn't the turn coordinator
> that was broken. The turn coordinator wasn't getting enough volts to
> keep it running, so it would start up, and then shut down as the battery
> was only putting out 9 volts.
>
> I had a new battery installed in 02/03, so I guess I was on the end life
> of the battery.
>
> This should fix all problems (I hope) and will fly it in the pattern
> tomorrow to make sure all systems are go.
>
> Now, all of this raises a couple of question. Exactly what is the
> ammeter for if I wasn't showing any sign of discharge on a battery not
> running full tilt?
>
> When I put the master on, it was exactly where it is everytime I started
> the plane, with no sign if discharge. I know the meter works, as when I
> put my landing light on, it will swing to the left. When I fire the
> engine, the needle swings slightly right and settles back in the middle.
>
> When the battery does go belly up, does the starter click like a car when
> a bad battery is the problem?
>
> Thanks all for the input!
>
> Allen
>
>
>
> > Went flying today. Go to crank the engine for start, nothing. Turn
> > the key, got like a jiggle of the prop. Turn all electrical things
> > off, figuring the battery drained, and then started just the alt and
> > bat, same thing, jiggle of the prop. Tried once more, and got the
> > prop to turn and fired right up.
>
> > Just had the durn starter replaced in July with a new one.
>
> > I don't think it was the battery, as nothing moved when I turned the
> > key, just a strange noise, no clicking like it would sound with a dead
> > battery. When I fired up the master and alternator, I heard a noise
> > sounding like something was draining the battery, yet the meter was
> > stable in the middle, not indicating any discharge.
>
> > Last week, when I cranked it, it struggled on the first turn of the
> > prop, but it started, so I had attributed it to maybe my battery being
> > low, it being very cold by MS standards, but after today, watching the
> > electrical amnmeter, the load was fine once the engine was running.
>
> > Am I having a bad run of starters, or should I be looking elsewhere
> > for a problem?
>
> > Grant you, I try to fly two times a week, but I would think I would
> > have gotten more starts out of this starter then 6 months worth.
>
> > Plane normally starts with one or two turns of the prop, so it's not
> > like the starter is running for any period of time or been abused.
>
> > Allen- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

According to the Battery Tender folks, the health of the battery can
be determined by measuring the voltage across the terminals after the
battery has been at rest for about 24 hrs. A full 100% charged battery
will show 12.9 volts, and a fully discharged one will show 11.4 volts.
If a battery shows 12.05 volts, halfway in between, it has 50%
capacity. Mine shows 12.6 volts, which is 80% of full charge. Here is
there website explaining it in more detail

http://batterytender.com/faqs.php/#1

Bud

[A Lieberma]

David Lesher > wrote in news:epoqih$kks$1
@reader2.panix.com:

> The "no crank" you experienced means insufficent voltage at the
> starter innards. Its cause could be: discharged/bad battery [low
> source voltage] or bad connections -- be they at the battery terminals,
> the starter cables, the solonoid, or inside the starter.

One thing for sure David,

New battery, I am sure my A&P cleaned the battery connections and I am
pretty sure he would have inspected the connections so that will be ruling
out any further issues should I have any.

He has been extremely thorough in the five years I have been doing business
with him.

Allen

[A Lieberma]

Don Tuite > wrote in
:

> Are we talking about a Piper?
>
> If so, the "ammeter" is a "load" meter that reads current. It shows
> how much current stuff in the airplane is sucking. If you have the
> pitot and landing lights on, it should show a pretty heavy load. Most
> of the time, it doesn't indicate much, because radios and stuff don't
> present a very big load.

Don,

We are talking about a Sundowner, and it does exactly what you describe
when I put on the landing light and pitot heat.

Though landing light seems to pull a heck of a load for a simple light, but
been told that's normal.

Pitot heat doesn't pull as much load.

Thanks all for explaining the ammeter!

Allen

[john smith]

In article >,
Don Tuite > wrote:

> It shows how much current stuff in the airplane is sucking.

I only read this newsgroup for the technical discussions.

:-)

[John_F]

Do NOT use WD40!! WD40 turns into a stickey mess in a short period of
time. After using WD40 in a few months or less the bendix will stick
and will not extend to engage even though the starter spins. Use 50%
motor oil and 50% STP or straight 50w motor oil NOT WD40.

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 23:42:17 GMT, A Lieberma >
wrote:

>A Lieberma > wrote in
. 18:
>
>Update to the below posting.
>
>My A&P pulled my plane in. Bear with me on this, but the bendex or
>selenoids????? needed a good WD40ing and that fixed the starter problem.
>MY GUESS is the cold weather gummed up the works? Dunno.
>
>The starter is still in good shape from what my A&P said. It's an
>prestolite starter for those that asked what kind of starter I had in my
>plane.
>
>I described the problem in the third paragraph in my original post,
>initially, when he called me, he said I had a bad turn coordinator
>causing the noise that I best described to him as a gyro winding down
>after the master switch was put on.
>
>He called me back a second time and said, it wasn't the turn coordinator
>that was broken. The turn coordinator wasn't getting enough volts to
>keep it running, so it would start up, and then shut down as the battery
>was only putting out 9 volts.
>
>I had a new battery installed in 02/03, so I guess I was on the end life
>of the battery.
>
>This should fix all problems (I hope) and will fly it in the pattern
>tomorrow to make sure all systems are go.
>
>Now, all of this raises a couple of question. Exactly what is the
>ammeter for if I wasn't showing any sign of discharge on a battery not
>running full tilt?
>
>When I put the master on, it was exactly where it is everytime I started
>the plane, with no sign if discharge. I know the meter works, as when I
>put my landing light on, it will swing to the left. When I fire the
>engine, the needle swings slightly right and settles back in the middle.
>
>When the battery does go belly up, does the starter click like a car when
>a bad battery is the problem?
>
>Thanks all for the input!
>
>Allen
>
>> Went flying today. Go to crank the engine for start, nothing. Turn
>> the key, got like a jiggle of the prop. Turn all electrical things
>> off, figuring the battery drained, and then started just the alt and
>> bat, same thing, jiggle of the prop. Tried once more, and got the
>> prop to turn and fired right up.
>>
>> Just had the durn starter replaced in July with a new one.
>>
>> I don't think it was the battery, as nothing moved when I turned the
>> key, just a strange noise, no clicking like it would sound with a dead
>> battery. When I fired up the master and alternator, I heard a noise
>> sounding like something was draining the battery, yet the meter was
>> stable in the middle, not indicating any discharge.
>>
>> Last week, when I cranked it, it struggled on the first turn of the
>> prop, but it started, so I had attributed it to maybe my battery being
>> low, it being very cold by MS standards, but after today, watching the
>> electrical amnmeter, the load was fine once the engine was running.
>>
>> Am I having a bad run of starters, or should I be looking elsewhere
>> for a problem?
>>
>> Grant you, I try to fly two times a week, but I would think I would
>> have gotten more starts out of this starter then 6 months worth.
>>
>> Plane normally starts with one or two turns of the prop, so it's not
>> like the starter is running for any period of time or been abused.
>>
>> Allen
>>

[[email protected]]

On Jan 30, 9:21 pm, (John_F) wrote:
> Do NOT use WD40!! WD40 turns into a stickey mess in a short period of
> time. After using WD40 in a few months or less the bendix will stick
> and will not extend to engage even though the starter spins. Use 50%
> motor oil and 50% STP or straight 50w motor oil NOT WD40.
>
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 23:42:17 GMT, A Lieberma >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >A Lieberma > wrote in
> . 18:
>
> >Update to the below posting.
>
> >My A&P pulled my plane in. Bear with me on this, but the bendex or
> >selenoids????? needed a good WD40ing and that fixed the starter problem.
> >MY GUESS is the cold weather gummed up the works? Dunno.
>
> >The starter is still in good shape from what my A&P said. It's an
> >prestolite starter for those that asked what kind of starter I had in my
> >plane.
>
> >I described the problem in the third paragraph in my original post,
> >initially, when he called me, he said I had a bad turn coordinator
> >causing the noise that I best described to him as a gyro winding down
> >after the master switch was put on.
>
> >He called me back a second time and said, it wasn't the turn coordinator
> >that was broken. The turn coordinator wasn't getting enough volts to
> >keep it running, so it would start up, and then shut down as the battery
> >was only putting out 9 volts.
>
> >I had a new battery installed in 02/03, so I guess I was on the end life
> >of the battery.
>
> >This should fix all problems (I hope) and will fly it in the pattern
> >tomorrow to make sure all systems are go.
>
> >Now, all of this raises a couple of question. Exactly what is the
> >ammeter for if I wasn't showing any sign of discharge on a battery not
> >running full tilt?
>
> >When I put the master on, it was exactly where it is everytime I started
> >the plane, with no sign if discharge. I know the meter works, as when I
> >put my landing light on, it will swing to the left. When I fire the
> >engine, the needle swings slightly right and settles back in the middle.
>
> >When the battery does go belly up, does the starter click like a car when
> >a bad battery is the problem?
>
> >Thanks all for the input!
>
> >Allen
>
> >> Went flying today. Go to crank the engine for start, nothing. Turn
> >> the key, got like a jiggle of the prop. Turn all electrical things
> >> off, figuring the battery drained, and then started just the alt and
> >> bat, same thing, jiggle of the prop. Tried once more, and got the
> >> prop to turn and fired right up.
>
> >> Just had the durn starter replaced in July with a new one.
>
> >> I don't think it was the battery, as nothing moved when I turned the
> >> key, just a strange noise, no clicking like it would sound with a dead
> >> battery. When I fired up the master and alternator, I heard a noise
> >> sounding like something was draining the battery, yet the meter was
> >> stable in the middle, not indicating any discharge.
>
> >> Last week, when I cranked it, it struggled on the first turn of the
> >> prop, but it started, so I had attributed it to maybe my battery being
> >> low, it being very cold by MS standards, but after today, watching the
> >> electrical amnmeter, the load was fine once the engine was running.
>
> >> Am I having a bad run of starters, or should I be looking elsewhere
> >> for a problem?
>
> >> Grant you, I try to fly two times a week, but I would think I would
> >> have gotten more starts out of this starter then 6 months worth.
>
> >> Plane normally starts with one or two turns of the prop, so it's not
> >> like the starter is running for any period of time or been abused.
>
> >> Allen- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I thought STP turned pretty sticky after a while. It is Silicone spray
that you are supposed to use on starter bendixes I thought. The STP
and motor oil mixture is an old formula used to make a good engine
assembly lube, since it does not run off the internal metal parts
during long term storage.

Bud

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> According to the Battery Tender folks, the health of the battery can
> be determined by measuring the voltage across the terminals after the
> battery has been at rest for about 24 hrs. A full 100% charged battery
> will show 12.9 volts, and a fully discharged one will show 11.4 volts.

IMHO, the 12.9 V figure is a little high. I usually expect and see about
12.60 - 12.65 V for a fully charged flooded lead-acid starting battery.
For whatever it might be worth,
http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/carfaq.htm has about the same
numbers.

I've used the Battery Tender chargers and they work well, but I am also
not surprised that a manufacturer of battery chargers gives a figure for
"fully charged" that probably makes many batteries tend to look
discharged. Never ask a barber if you need a haircut. :)

Disclaimer: This is based on experience with flooded and VRLA/AGM
batteries for starting and traction on ground vehicles. I don't have
an A&P; I don't even have a TG&Y. I don't get money or other
consideration from any of the companies mentioned.

Matt Roberds

[[email protected]]

On Jan 30, 11:43 pm, wrote:
> wrote:
> > According to the Battery Tender folks, the health of the battery can
> > be determined by measuring the voltage across the terminals after the
> > battery has been at rest for about 24 hrs. A full 100% charged battery
> > will show 12.9 volts, and a fully discharged one will show 11.4 volts.
>
> IMHO, the 12.9 V figure is a little high. I usually expect and see about
> 12.60 - 12.65 V for a fully charged flooded lead-acid starting battery.
> For whatever it might be worth,http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/carfaq.htmhas about the same
> numbers.
>
> I've used the Battery Tender chargers and they work well, but I am also
> not surprised that a manufacturer of battery chargers gives a figure for
> "fully charged" that probably makes many batteries tend to look
> discharged. Never ask a barber if you need a haircut. :)
>
> Disclaimer: This is based on experience with flooded and VRLA/AGM
> batteries for starting and traction on ground vehicles. I don't have
> an A&P; I don't even have a TG&Y. I don't get money or other
> consideration from any of the companies mentioned.
>
> Matt Roberds

Thanks for the resource, it has a lot of detailed information. They
state the following:

"Depending on the plate chemistry, the Open Circuit Voltage can
range from 12.6 to 13.1 for fully charged wet "Maintenance Free" (Ca/
Ca) batteries and tend to be higher in deep cycle than in car (or
starting) batteries. "

This goes with what little I had heard about aircarft vs car
batteries, which is that aircraft batteries have a slightly higher
voltage than car batteries. Seems that it depends on the type of
battery one has, so the 12.9 is maybe an absolute maximum. I don't
know for sure. I'll just keep reading.

Regards,
Bud

[[email protected]]

On Jan 30, 10:21 pm, (John_F) wrote:
> Do NOT use WD40!! WD40 turns into a stickey mess in a short period of
> time. After using WD40 in a few months or less the bendix will stick
> and will not extend to engage even though the starter spins. Use 50%
> motor oil and 50% STP or straight 50w motor oil NOT WD40.

Lycoming says to use only silicone spray lube on the starter
drive. It will not attract dust as all other lubes will, and dust plus
oil equals sticky sludge. You might need to remove the starter, take
the drive out and clean it thoroughly.
Many starting problems involve old contactors, both the master
contactor and starter contactor, and both are usually found on the
firewall or battery box. These things aren't airtight, and oxygen gets
into them and causes oxidation of the copper contact disc and teminal
heads. That oxide is not a good conductor and will result in some
resistance, which causes more heat, which accelerates the oxidation.
We have to regularly replace contactors on our six flight school
airplanes, and when we buy another (used) airplane we usually replace
both of them right off simply because of their age. A low-time
contactor will still be oxidized because of the years since
manufacture. A bad contactor can ground an airplane far from home and
cause us expensive repairs. A new battery is just a waste of money,
trying to fix the wrong problem.
Another problem: old ignition switches. The contacts in these are
lubricated with a grease that hardens with time and lifts the contacts
apart. Arcing occurs and the switch soon burns out. There are ADs
against some of these switches.
There is no contactor inside the Prestolite starter on a Lyc.
There IS a 200-hour brush inspection requirement, because worn brushes
or commutator will cause starting problems. And a lousy contactor or
tired battery will result in much longer crank cycles, which heats the
starter and melts the solder joining the armature wires to the
commutator segments, or will melt the segment bonds and they'll be
thrown out. End of $450 starter. See how an old $25 contactor can
cause many more problems?

The OP mentioned turning off the radios and other stuff to try
to start. Radios should be turned off before turing off the master at
the end of a flight and left off until the engine has been started
again. Some radios have no voltage spike protection. Some aircraft
have a diode across the master contactor coil to shunt the spike, some
don't, and some of those diodes are busted. Some starter contactors
have diodes, many don't. The starter has no diode. Some aircraft have
a relay that opens the supply to the avionics during the start, many
don't.
Any contactor has a coil, the starter has several coils, and
the alternator has a field coil. All coils create a sharp voltage
spike when the current is cut off. Switching the master off, the
alternator off, or releasing the start switch all create that spike
(I've measured the master contactor's spike at 600 volts) and those
expensive radios aren't all built to put up with it, especially
considering that the spike creates an electron flow in the wrong
direction through the bus. That's why many aircraft have an avionics
master switch (that has no coil involved). The rest should have the
radios shut off before shutdown.

Dan

[Vaughn Simon]

> wrote in message
...
> wrote:
> I've used the Battery Tender chargers and they work well,

They get my vote as well! particularly if you have a battery that you want
to leave on float for a long time without the slightest worry of overcharging.

>but I am also
> not surprised that a manufacturer of battery chargers gives a figure for
> "fully charged" that probably makes many batteries tend to look
> discharged.

Don't forget the "load testers" that automotive mechanics use. What they
do is test the internal resistance of the battery, which tends to increase
rapidly at end of battery life. A load tester is also good for testing your
battery connections. battery leads, and ground straps. That said, I prefer to
test battery connections and cables by putting a smaller load on the battery
(headlights, landing light) and probe across each connection and each cable with
a voltmeter set to the lowest scale. Any voltage drop over .1 volt bears
investigation.

Vaughn

[john smith]

In article . com>,
wrote:

> Any contactor has a coil, the starter has several coils, and
> the alternator has a field coil. All coils create a sharp voltage
> spike when the current is cut off. Switching the master off, the
> alternator off, or releasing the start switch all create that spike
> (I've measured the master contactor's spike at 600 volts) and those
> expensive radios aren't all built to put up with it, especially
> considering that the spike creates an electron flow in the wrong
> direction through the bus. That's why many aircraft have an avionics
> master switch (that has no coil involved). The rest should have the
> radios shut off before shutdown.

Coils (inductors) are current storage devices.
Capacitors are voltage storage devices.

[A Lieberma]

wrote in news:1170260453.042276.228590
@v33g2000cwv.googlegroups.com:

> The OP mentioned turning off the radios and other stuff to try
> to start. Radios should be turned off before turing off the master at
> the end of a flight and left off until the engine has been started
> again. Some radios have no voltage spike protection.

Hey Dan,

You did have me awondering.....

I turned all electrical stuff off is what I said (not radios). That was
nav lights, and strobes.

My check list has me turning on avionics after engine start and before
engine shutdown.

Allen

[David Lesher]

A Lieberma > writes:

>David Lesher > wrote in news:epoqih$kks$1
:

>> The "no crank" you experienced means insufficient voltage at the
>> starter innards. Its cause could be: discharged/bad battery [low
>> source voltage] or bad connections -- be they at the battery terminals,
>> the starter cables, the solenoid, or inside the starter.

>One thing for sure David,

>New battery, I am sure my A&P cleaned the battery connections and I am
>pretty sure he would have inspected the connections so that will be ruling
>out any further issues should I have any.

Then further troubleshooting is needed. Another poster suggested that
contactors may be the culprit. It's a good suspect.

(There are two basic approaches to troubleshooting. One is to
methodically go step by step, testing as you go...until you find
the anomaly. The other is jumping to a specific villain, and testing
it first.

An expert is the guy who knows how to balance these two. He may try
the second, and then go back to the first when stuck.)



--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[A Lieberma]

David Lesher > wrote in
:

> (There are two basic approaches to troubleshooting. One is to
> methodically go step by step, testing as you go...until you find
> the anomaly. The other is jumping to a specific villain, and testing
> it first.
>
> An expert is the guy who knows how to balance these two. He may try
> the second, and then go back to the first when stuck.)

Manowar do I agree with the second paragraph 'specially when it's
electrical in nature and intermittent.

I flew today, no problems whatsoever noted. Not so say a problem doesn't
exist, but engine ran smooth, started on one swing of the prop.

Couldn't even go to the practice area, but that wasn't a mechanical issue,
icing at 2000 feet was the problem.

Allen

[[email protected]]

On Jan 31, 6:53 pm, john smith > wrote:
> In article . com>,
>
> wrote:
> > Any contactor has a coil, the starter has several coils, and
> > the alternator has a field coil. All coils create a sharp voltage
> > spike when the current is cut off. Switching the master off, the
> > alternator off, or releasing the start switch all create that spike
> > (I've measured the master contactor's spike at 600 volts) and those
> > expensive radios aren't all built to put up with it, especially
> > considering that the spike creates an electron flow in the wrong
> > direction through the bus. That's why many aircraft have an avionics
> > master switch (that has no coil involved). The rest should have the
> > radios shut off before shutdown.
>
> Coils (inductors) are current storage devices.
> Capacitors are voltage storage devices.

As if current and voltage were independent of each other?
The coil will produce a surge of current, which has a specific
pressure that we call voltage. You can't have current flow without
voltage; any flow (amperage) requires pressure (voltage) to drive it.
Just like water in a hose.
The magneto produces a pressure upward of 20,000 volts. It
does this using a pair of coils and a switch (points). Your
automobile's ignition system probably produces 40,000 volts, again
using paired coils. Both of those systems have a primary coil that
produces the current surge (which has a voltage spike) when its
current flow is interrupted, and the collapsing magnetic field
produces the huge spike in the secondary coil for use at the spark
plug.
The argument re current vs. voltage is a little like
Bernoulli's vs. Newton's theories of lift. They're both right, but
they address different aspects of the phenomenon.

Dan

[Tauno Voipio]

wrote:
> On Jan 31, 6:53 pm, john smith > wrote:
>
>>In article . com>,
>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>Coils (inductors) are current storage devices.
>>Capacitors are voltage storage devices.
>
>
> As if current and voltage were independent of each other?
> The coil will produce a surge of current, which has a specific
> pressure that we call voltage. You can't have current flow without
> voltage; any flow (amperage) requires pressure (voltage) to drive it.
> Just like water in a hose.

It seems that you need some basic physics repeat training.

The quote above about storage is correct for capacitances
and inductances.

An inductance converts current changes into voltage changes
in such a way that it opposes the original current changes,
that is, an inductance smoothes current flow at the expense
of voltage changes.

A capacitance converts voltage changes into current changes
in such a way that it opposes the original voltage change,
that is, a capacitance smoothes a voltage at the expense
of current changes.

> The magneto produces a pressure upward of 20,000 volts. It
> does this using a pair of coils and a switch (points). Your
> automobile's ignition system probably produces 40,000 volts, again
> using paired coils. Both of those systems have a primary coil that
> produces the current surge (which has a voltage spike) when its
> current flow is interrupted, and the collapsing magnetic field
> produces the huge spike in the secondary coil for use at the spark
> plug.

The voltage from a magneto (or a simple spark coil) comes from
two sources:

- the abrupt break of the current in the primary winding of
the coil. It creates a voltage spike to (in vain) keep the
current smooth.

- the transformation ratio of the primary to the secondary
winding in the coil.

A magneto works in the same way as a spark coil, but the initial
current is created by a generator action of the moving magnet.


> The argument re current vs. voltage is a little like
> Bernoulli's vs. Newton's theories of lift. They're both right, but
> they address different aspects of the phenomenon.

Right, but they are independent as long as the circuit
impedance is not specified. It is the thing that ties
current and voltage together.

--

Tauno Voipio (MSEE, avionics engineer)
tauno voipio (at) iki fi
'

[[email protected]]

On Feb 1, 8:55 am, Tauno Voipio > wrote:
> wrote:
> > On Jan 31, 6:53 pm, john smith > wrote:
>
> >>In article . com>,
>
> >> wrote:
>
> >>Coils (inductors) are current storage devices.
> >>Capacitors are voltage storage devices.
>
> > As if current and voltage were independent of each other?
> > The coil will produce a surge of current, which has a specific
> > pressure that we call voltage. You can't have current flow without
> > voltage; any flow (amperage) requires pressure (voltage) to drive it.
> > Just like water in a hose.
>
> It seems that you need some basic physics repeat training.
>
> The quote above about storage is correct for capacitances
> and inductances.
>
> An inductance converts current changes into voltage changes
> in such a way that it opposes the original current changes,
> that is, an inductance smoothes current flow at the expense
> of voltage changes.
>
> A capacitance converts voltage changes into current changes
> in such a way that it opposes the original voltage change,
> that is, a capacitance smoothes a voltage at the expense
> of current changes.
>
> > The magneto produces a pressure upward of 20,000 volts. It
> > does this using a pair of coils and a switch (points). Your
> > automobile's ignition system probably produces 40,000 volts, again
> > using paired coils. Both of those systems have a primary coil that
> > produces the current surge (which has a voltage spike) when its
> > current flow is interrupted, and the collapsing magnetic field
> > produces the huge spike in the secondary coil for use at the spark
> > plug.
>
> The voltage from a magneto (or a simple spark coil) comes from
> two sources:
>
> - the abrupt break of the current in the primary winding of
> the coil. It creates a voltage spike to (in vain) keep the
> current smooth.
>
> - the transformation ratio of the primary to the secondary
> winding in the coil.
>
> A magneto works in the same way as a spark coil, but the initial
> current is created by a generator action of the moving magnet.


So tell me where I was wrong.

Dan

[Tauno Voipio]

wrote:
> On Feb 1, 8:55 am, Tauno Voipio > wrote:
>
wrote:
>>
>>>On Jan 31, 6:53 pm, john smith > wrote:
>>
>>>>In article . com>,
>>
wrote:
>>
>>>>Coils (inductors) are current storage devices.
>>>>Capacitors are voltage storage devices.
>>
>>> As if current and voltage were independent of each other?
>>>The coil will produce a surge of current, which has a specific
>>>pressure that we call voltage. You can't have current flow without
>>>voltage; any flow (amperage) requires pressure (voltage) to drive it.
>>>Just like water in a hose.
>>
>>It seems that you need some basic physics repeat training.
>>
>>The quote above about storage is correct for capacitances
>>and inductances.
>>
>>An inductance converts current changes into voltage changes
>>in such a way that it opposes the original current changes,
>>that is, an inductance smoothes current flow at the expense
>>of voltage changes.
>>
>>A capacitance converts voltage changes into current changes
>>in such a way that it opposes the original voltage change,
>>that is, a capacitance smoothes a voltage at the expense
>>of current changes.
>>
>>
>>> The magneto produces a pressure upward of 20,000 volts. It
>>>does this using a pair of coils and a switch (points). Your
>>>automobile's ignition system probably produces 40,000 volts, again
>>>using paired coils. Both of those systems have a primary coil that
>>>produces the current surge (which has a voltage spike) when its
>>>current flow is interrupted, and the collapsing magnetic field
>>>produces the huge spike in the secondary coil for use at the spark
>>>plug.
>>
>>The voltage from a magneto (or a simple spark coil) comes from
>>two sources:
>>
>> - the abrupt break of the current in the primary winding of
>> the coil. It creates a voltage spike to (in vain) keep the
>> current smooth.
>>
>> - the transformation ratio of the primary to the secondary
>> winding in the coil.
>>
>>A magneto works in the same way as a spark coil, but the initial
>>current is created by a generator action of the moving magnet.
>
>
>
> So tell me where I was wrong.
>
> Dan
>

Here:

--- quote ---

>>> As if current and voltage were independent of each other?

-- end quote --

They are - the circuit impedance ties them together.

--- quote ---

>>>The coil will produce a surge of current, which has a specific
>>>pressure that we call voltage.

-- end quote --

The coil *suppresses* surges of *current* by producing surges
of voltage. Here, the coil is the impedance creating the relation
of voltage and current.

--- quote ---

>>>You can't have current flow without
>>>voltage; any flow (amperage) requires pressure (voltage) to drive it.
>>>Just like water in a hose.

-- end quote --

There are weird things called superconductors, where this
does not apply - in normal conductors, the conductor resistance
is the impedance tying voltage and current together.

--

Tauno Voipio
tauno voipio (at) iki fi

[David Lesher]

: Get a voltmeter and use the troubleshooting procedure outlined here...
:
: http://www.skytecair.com/images/Troubleshooting
: %20Diagram_5.0.pdf

The URL is mangled, but

http://www.skytecair.com/Troubleshooting.htm

gets you there. That's an excellent guide. Note they talk in
#3 about measuring the difference between two terminals
***while under load.****

When not loaded, all will look fine...


I'll add a few things.

a) Watch out for the prop.

b) In the steps showing you measuring at a terminal; there are THREE
places to measure:

1) The terminal bolt
2) The lug
3) The wire itself

Assuming they are one & the same is a bad idea. If the lug<->bolt
connection is dirty, 1&2 will be different voltages UNDER LOAD. If
the lug is not well-connected to the wire.... That's especially an
issue with aluminum wire...

Do not forget the grounds!! The battery ground, the engine->frame
ground.... all those matter..

You can also diagnose bad starter connections another way -- feel.
After the slow/failed crank, carefully feel each connection mentioned.
The bad one will be hot, and may be HOT. The advantage to this is
it is done after cranking, not while.
--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433