bad vectors, no hand off

[Lurker]

Flyers,

I just want some of your thoughts on this. My plane partner and I went out
last night to do some practice instrument approaches. He wore the hood and
I was the right-seat safety pilot.

ATC was not too busy and it was a nice VFR night. First, after we asked for
a practice ILS 24 into KPNE they acknowledged our request and then forgot
about us and had us continue flying away from the field for sometime. This
continued until I finally asked if they were going to vector us.

"Oh...no...I just figured you'd turn toward Yardley."

Hmmm...ok we turn toward Yardley. He then had us climb to 3000. He
vectored us onto the approach within 1/8 mile of the final approach fix, had
us maintain 3000 (FAF alt on chart is 2000) and cleared us for the approach.
My partner was struggling to get the plane down and I'm looking out for
planes, our attitude, the glide slope, his airspeed,...IOW...everything.

I suddenly realize that we are on a 1/2 mile final (way above the glide
slope) and we were never handed off to the tower. I push the flip-flop
button and contact the tower and ask if we missed a handoff.

The tower responds, "I've been waiting for you to contact us"

"I'm sorry. Did approach hand us off?"

"No...but that doesn't matter...it's your responsibility. You need to
realize that there is a problem before you're on a 1/2 mile final."

To make a long story short...we were given back to approach and did the
approach into our field (VOR-A). We were handed off to another approach
controller. We asked for a practice VOR-A into N14 with vectors. This
controller never vectored us and merrily watched us (or didn't watch us) fly
right through the approach course, never vectoring us, never assigning an
altitude and never clearing us for the approach.

I get on the radio and asked if he wanted us to fly through the approach
course.

"Ahhh...no...just intercept the approach course and maintain 2100 until
PONDE (the FAF)..." he then cleared us for the approach.

What was this? A bad night for controllers? Were we second class citizens?
And why did I get bawled out for the approach controllers forgetful
hand-off?

Kobra

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Lurker wrote:
> The tower responds, "I've been waiting for you to contact us"
>
> "I'm sorry. Did approach hand us off?"
>
> "No...but that doesn't matter...it's your responsibility. You need to
> realize that there is a problem before you're on a 1/2 mile final."


I've got to say I've never received such ****ty service in the South. Actually,
I can't say I've received such ****ty service anywhere. Since when is it your
responsibility to decide when to end communications with one controller and
begin with another? I think I'd be writing the FSDO or somebody and complain
loudly, with CC:'s to your local congresscritters. In fact, call and complain
immediately before the tapes get overwritten.


> To make a long story short...we were given back to approach and did the
> approach into our field (VOR-A). We were handed off to another approach
> controller. We asked for a practice VOR-A into N14 with vectors. This
> controller never vectored us and merrily watched us (or didn't watch us) fly
> right through the approach course, never vectoring us, never assigning an
> altitude and never clearing us for the approach.


You know, if they didn't want to bother with you, the least they could have done
is tell you so. Or is it their position that that is your responsibility to
determine as well?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Newps]

Lurker wrote:
> Were we second class citizens?

Depends. Were you flying a Cherokee?

[Jim Macklin]

VFR, practice, unless you ask for vectors or are told,
"vectors to ..." then you navigate.

Suggest you file a NASA report to cover your butt, [two-one
for each pilot].
http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/forms_nf.htm



"Lurker" > wrote in message
...
| Flyers,
|
| I just want some of your thoughts on this. My plane
partner and I went out
| last night to do some practice instrument approaches. He
wore the hood and
| I was the right-seat safety pilot.
|
| ATC was not too busy and it was a nice VFR night. First,
after we asked for
| a practice ILS 24 into KPNE they acknowledged our request
and then forgot
| about us and had us continue flying away from the field
for sometime. This
| continued until I finally asked if they were going to
vector us.
|
| "Oh...no...I just figured you'd turn toward Yardley."
|
| Hmmm...ok we turn toward Yardley. He then had us climb to
3000. He
| vectored us onto the approach within 1/8 mile of the final
approach fix, had
| us maintain 3000 (FAF alt on chart is 2000) and cleared us
for the approach.
| My partner was struggling to get the plane down and I'm
looking out for
| planes, our attitude, the glide slope, his
airspeed,...IOW...everything.
|
| I suddenly realize that we are on a 1/2 mile final (way
above the glide
| slope) and we were never handed off to the tower. I push
the flip-flop
| button and contact the tower and ask if we missed a
handoff.
|
| The tower responds, "I've been waiting for you to contact
us"
|
| "I'm sorry. Did approach hand us off?"
|
| "No...but that doesn't matter...it's your responsibility.
You need to
| realize that there is a problem before you're on a 1/2
mile final."
|
| To make a long story short...we were given back to
approach and did the
| approach into our field (VOR-A). We were handed off to
another approach
| controller. We asked for a practice VOR-A into N14 with
vectors. This
| controller never vectored us and merrily watched us (or
didn't watch us) fly
| right through the approach course, never vectoring us,
never assigning an
| altitude and never clearing us for the approach.
|
| I get on the radio and asked if he wanted us to fly
through the approach
| course.
|
| "Ahhh...no...just intercept the approach course and
maintain 2100 until
| PONDE (the FAF)..." he then cleared us for the approach.
|
| What was this? A bad night for controllers? Were we
second class citizens?
| And why did I get bawled out for the approach controllers
forgetful
| hand-off?
|
| Kobra
|
|

[Peter R.]

On 2/7/2007 8:07:26 PM, "Lurker" wrote:

> And why did I get bawled out for the approach controllers forgetful
> hand-off?

I cannot comment on the rest of your plight other than to suggest you call
the facility, explain what happened and ask if the service you received was
acceptable from their perspective.

However, regarding the failed hand-off, I do suggest that better situational
awareness along the approach or perhaps more assertiveness on the PIC's part
would have prevented the terse lecture.

After routinely flying IFR for the last three years, I can recall several
cases of approach failing to hand me off to tower. In all cases, I wait until
about 1/2 mile inside the FAF, then call approach with a "Bonanza XXX inside
{FAF}, switch to tower?" Just about every time this results in a quick
hand-off.

In one case approach failed to reply so I just switched myself and called
tower with "Tower, Bonanza XXX inside {FAF}, never received a hand-off."

--
Peter

[Bob Gardner]

No question that you got bad service, but I would suggest that the PIC be
more assertive. If you don't get what you want, ask for it. In the future,
file IFR and turn your "practice" into reality.

Bob Gardner

"Lurker" > wrote in message
...
> Flyers,
>
> I just want some of your thoughts on this. My plane partner and I went
> out
> last night to do some practice instrument approaches. He wore the hood
> and
> I was the right-seat safety pilot.
>
> ATC was not too busy and it was a nice VFR night. First, after we asked
> for
> a practice ILS 24 into KPNE they acknowledged our request and then forgot
> about us and had us continue flying away from the field for sometime.
> This
> continued until I finally asked if they were going to vector us.
>
> "Oh...no...I just figured you'd turn toward Yardley."
>
> Hmmm...ok we turn toward Yardley. He then had us climb to 3000. He
> vectored us onto the approach within 1/8 mile of the final approach fix,
> had
> us maintain 3000 (FAF alt on chart is 2000) and cleared us for the
> approach.
> My partner was struggling to get the plane down and I'm looking out for
> planes, our attitude, the glide slope, his airspeed,...IOW...everything.
>
> I suddenly realize that we are on a 1/2 mile final (way above the glide
> slope) and we were never handed off to the tower. I push the flip-flop
> button and contact the tower and ask if we missed a handoff.
>
> The tower responds, "I've been waiting for you to contact us"
>
> "I'm sorry. Did approach hand us off?"
>
> "No...but that doesn't matter...it's your responsibility. You need to
> realize that there is a problem before you're on a 1/2 mile final."
>
> To make a long story short...we were given back to approach and did the
> approach into our field (VOR-A). We were handed off to another approach
> controller. We asked for a practice VOR-A into N14 with vectors. This
> controller never vectored us and merrily watched us (or didn't watch us)
> fly
> right through the approach course, never vectoring us, never assigning an
> altitude and never clearing us for the approach.
>
> I get on the radio and asked if he wanted us to fly through the approach
> course.
>
> "Ahhh...no...just intercept the approach course and maintain 2100 until
> PONDE (the FAF)..." he then cleared us for the approach.
>
> What was this? A bad night for controllers? Were we second class
> citizens?
> And why did I get bawled out for the approach controllers forgetful
> hand-off?
>
> Kobra
>
>

[Wyatt Emmerich]

Controllers forgetting to hand you off to tower is a fairly common problem
in the IFR environment, especially when it's practice. I just say something
like "Should I got to tower" and that usually does the trick.

--

Wyatt Emmerich
President, Emmerich Newspapers
601-977-0470

PO Box 16709, Jackson MS 39236
Shipping: 246 Briarwood Drive, Suite 101, Jackson MS 39206
"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
...
> No question that you got bad service, but I would suggest that the PIC be
> more assertive. If you don't get what you want, ask for it. In the future,
> file IFR and turn your "practice" into reality.
>
> Bob Gardner
>
> "Lurker" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Flyers,
>>
>> I just want some of your thoughts on this. My plane partner and I went
>> out
>> last night to do some practice instrument approaches. He wore the hood
>> and
>> I was the right-seat safety pilot.
>>
>> ATC was not too busy and it was a nice VFR night. First, after we asked
>> for
>> a practice ILS 24 into KPNE they acknowledged our request and then forgot
>> about us and had us continue flying away from the field for sometime.
>> This
>> continued until I finally asked if they were going to vector us.
>>
>> "Oh...no...I just figured you'd turn toward Yardley."
>>
>> Hmmm...ok we turn toward Yardley. He then had us climb to 3000. He
>> vectored us onto the approach within 1/8 mile of the final approach fix,
>> had
>> us maintain 3000 (FAF alt on chart is 2000) and cleared us for the
>> approach.
>> My partner was struggling to get the plane down and I'm looking out for
>> planes, our attitude, the glide slope, his airspeed,...IOW...everything.
>>
>> I suddenly realize that we are on a 1/2 mile final (way above the glide
>> slope) and we were never handed off to the tower. I push the flip-flop
>> button and contact the tower and ask if we missed a handoff.
>>
>> The tower responds, "I've been waiting for you to contact us"
>>
>> "I'm sorry. Did approach hand us off?"
>>
>> "No...but that doesn't matter...it's your responsibility. You need to
>> realize that there is a problem before you're on a 1/2 mile final."
>>
>> To make a long story short...we were given back to approach and did the
>> approach into our field (VOR-A). We were handed off to another approach
>> controller. We asked for a practice VOR-A into N14 with vectors. This
>> controller never vectored us and merrily watched us (or didn't watch us)
>> fly
>> right through the approach course, never vectoring us, never assigning an
>> altitude and never clearing us for the approach.
>>
>> I get on the radio and asked if he wanted us to fly through the approach
>> course.
>>
>> "Ahhh...no...just intercept the approach course and maintain 2100 until
>> PONDE (the FAF)..." he then cleared us for the approach.
>>
>> What was this? A bad night for controllers? Were we second class
>> citizens?
>> And why did I get bawled out for the approach controllers forgetful
>> hand-off?
>>
>> Kobra
>>
>>
>
>

[A Lieberma]

"Wyatt Emmerich" > wrote in
:

> Controllers forgetting to hand you off to tower is a fairly common
> problem in the IFR environment, especially when it's practice. I just
> say something like "Should I got to tower" and that usually does the
> trick.

*smile*

If I don't get transferred to tower within a couple of miles from the FAF,
I was told by my instructor to "report" my position to appraoch controllers
as a memory jogger that I am still with them.

I.E. Jackson Approach 43L one mile outside Brenz.

Usually, approach will come back and then say 43L, contact tower on 1xx.xx

Allen

[Roger[_4_]]

On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:22:15 GMT, A Lieberma >
wrote:

>"Wyatt Emmerich" > wrote in
:
>
>> Controllers forgetting to hand you off to tower is a fairly common
>> problem in the IFR environment, especially when it's practice. I just
>> say something like "Should I got to tower" and that usually does the
>> trick.
>
>*smile*
>
>If I don't get transferred to tower within a couple of miles from the FAF,
>I was told by my instructor to "report" my position to appraoch controllers
>as a memory jogger that I am still with them.
>
>I.E. Jackson Approach 43L one mile outside Brenz.
>
>Usually, approach will come back and then say 43L, contact tower on 1xx.xx
>
>Allen

In Actual: Ahhh... *** approach, this is XXX 20 North at 4,000. How
far do you want me to keep going for traffic avoidance? Ahhhh XXX ...
turn heading 180 and expect vectors to the ILS.

Know what to expect when and ask why if not.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[A Lieberma]

Roger > wrote in
:

> In Actual: Ahhh... *** approach, this is XXX 20 North at 4,000. How
> far do you want me to keep going for traffic avoidance? Ahhhh XXX ...
> turn heading 180 and expect vectors to the ILS.

I knew instrument flying required patience, but you exceeded the patience
of Job *big smile*.

Musta woke the controller up from a nap?

Allen

[Nathan Young]

On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 20:07:27 -0500, "Lurker" > wrote:

>Flyers,
>
>I just want some of your thoughts on this. My plane partner and I went out
>last night to do some practice instrument approaches. He wore the hood and
>I was the right-seat safety pilot.
>
>ATC was not too busy and it was a nice VFR night. First, after we asked for
>a practice ILS 24 into KPNE they acknowledged our request and then forgot
>about us and had us continue flying away from the field for sometime. This
>continued until I finally asked if they were going to vector us.

Either way, approach should have handed you off to the tower. But I
am curious - is the approach facility co-located with the airport?

For example, is it PNE approach and PNE tower? Or is the PNE field
serviced by another nearby approach facility?

[Dane Spearing]

In article >,
Newps > wrote:
>
>
>Lurker wrote:
>> Were we second class citizens?
>
>Depends. Were you flying a Cherokee?

HEY!!!! I resemble that remark.

-- Dane, happy owner of a PA32-300

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Dane Spearing wrote:
>>> Were we second class citizens?
>>
>> Depends. Were you flying a Cherokee?
>
> HEY!!!! I resemble that remark.
>
> -- Dane, happy owner of a PA32-300


On a only slightly related note, I was highly offended yesterday to note that
some undeserving slob (read: other than me) won that PA-32-260 that AOPA has
been showing around.

I mean, REALLY... it's not like I forgot to reup my membership.

The guy who won it already has about 9000 hours. He's probably tired of flying
already. They ought to let guys like me (well, actually me specifically) win.
I'd promise to go fly it quite a bit.


--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Bonehenge]

On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:04:59 -0500, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
<mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote:
>
>On a only slightly related note, I was highly offended yesterday to note that
>some undeserving slob (read: other than me) won that PA-32-260 that AOPA has
>been showing around.

Me too...

There's always next year. -=8^(

And I liked the Six so much more than the Commander.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Bonehenge wrote:
> There's always next year. -=8^(
>
> And I liked the Six so much more than the Commander.


Me too. I've never flown a Commander but I've got a bunch of time flying a Six
to some very nice places. Never a 260 though... always a 300. I understand the
260 actually has more useful load... which is already kind of scary. I used to
carry 6 adults, baggage, and diving gear (except for tanks and weight belts)
from North Carolina to various spots in the Bahamas (with staging in and out of
the Vero Beach/ St. Lucie County area). One hell of a load... one hell of a
bird.

What did the guy who won the AOPA bird fly? C-130's? He's never gonna be
satisfied with a Six. Schmuck.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Bonehenge]

On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 20:34:10 -0500, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
<mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote:

>
>What did the guy who won the AOPA bird fly? C-130's? He's never gonna be
>satisfied with a Six. Schmuck.


Maybe he flies Dolphins! <G>

[Ray Andraka]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

> Bonehenge wrote:
>
>>There's always next year. -=8^(
>>
>>And I liked the Six so much more than the Commander.
>
>
>
> Me too. I've never flown a Commander but I've got a bunch of time flying a Six
> to some very nice places. Never a 260 though... always a 300. I understand the
> 260 actually has more useful load... which is already kind of scary. I used to
> carry 6 adults, baggage, and diving gear (except for tanks and weight belts)
> from North Carolina to various spots in the Bahamas (with staging in and out of
> the Vero Beach/ St. Lucie County area). One hell of a load... one hell of a
> bird.
>
> What did the guy who won the AOPA bird fly? C-130's? He's never gonna be
> satisfied with a Six. Schmuck.
>
>
>
>

I fly a -260 with 7 seats. Mine's got a 1556 lb useful load, and I do
fly it at max gross. When heavy it is no short field machine,
especially when hot and high, but it will in fact lift a lot of people,
gas, and stuff. There's simply nothing else out there like it. Fact
is, it is pretty much an if it fits through the door you can fly it
machine. Unlike the -300, it is virtually impossible to get the CG
forward of the forward limit. You really have to work to get it aft of
the aft limit (two big guys in the back seat and nobody else but the 180
lb pilot will do it). Had I won the AOPA one, it would have been a hard
choice on which to keep. Mine's got a bigger useful load and has the 7
seats I need, plus it is a relatively low time airframe with about 3500
hours. Theirs has some nice goodies in the panel and has been nicely
refurbished all over, and is supposedly several knots faster than the
135kts true I get out of mine at 6000'. Guess that's why they put my
name back in the hat when they drew it.

[Andrew Sarangan]

On Feb 7, 8:07 pm, "Lurker" > wrote:
> Flyers,
>
> I just want some of your thoughts on this. My plane partner and I went out
> last night to do some practice instrument approaches. He wore the hood and
> I was the right-seat safety pilot.
>
<snipped>

It was obviously bad ATC service. I have had controllers forget and
let me fly through the final course, but they always apologized for
it and gave me above average service the second time around.

However, I do have to ask how you 'suddenly' ended up 1/2 mile final
and way above the glide slope. As soon as you realize you have been
given a bum vector, you should query the controller instead of
continuing that far into the approach.

[Allan9]

I'd call the Tower Manager and ask him to look into it.
Unless the tape retention has changed they are required to retain the
tape(s) for 15 days.
They then are rotated back into service
Al


"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
...
> Lurker wrote:
>> The tower responds, "I've been waiting for you to contact us"
>>
>> "I'm sorry. Did approach hand us off?"
>>
>> "No...but that doesn't matter...it's your responsibility. You need to
>> realize that there is a problem before you're on a 1/2 mile final."
>
>

[Newps]

45 days.



Allan9 wrote:
> I'd call the Tower Manager and ask him to look into it.
> Unless the tape retention has changed they are required to retain the
> tape(s) for 15 days.
> They then are rotated back into service
> Al
>

[Roger[_4_]]

On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 04:43:22 GMT, A Lieberma >
wrote:

>Roger > wrote in
:
>
>> In Actual: Ahhh... *** approach, this is XXX 20 North at 4,000. How
>> far do you want me to keep going for traffic avoidance? Ahhhh XXX ...
>> turn heading 180 and expect vectors to the ILS.
>
>I knew instrument flying required patience, but you exceeded the patience
>of Job *big smile*.

At 3 miles a minute it doesn't take very long and when you are busy 5
or 6 minutes can go by in a hurry.

They were really busy and it was hard to get a word in.<:-))
At least the ride was smooth even if I couldn't see anything.

That was the same day and same airport where they told me to follow
the airliner ahead when I couldn't see past the Deb's wing tips. I
believe my reply was something to the effect of "I would if I could,
but I can't see my own wingtips". Which was followed by another...
"Uhhh... when you break out, follow the airliner." <:-))

>
>Musta woke the controller up from a nap?

I think it certainly woke him up, but not from a nap<:-))

Over the years I've had them make just about as many mistakes as I
have. On one particular trip I was cleared to land at the wrong
airport. So pilots aren't the only ones making that mistake. When I
reminded them my flight plan called for the neighboring airport, the
usual short pause was followed by a "can you make the runway from your
current position?". It was visual and I could. Some one else must have
called the tower as they were expecting me and I was well inside
where I'd have normally switched for approach to the tower. The one
approach (at the other field) handles both fields although they have
separate towers. It's a good thing they cleared me for 17 instead of
23 as both airports have a 23 but where I was headed doesn't have a
17. <:-)) Actually I was already suspicious as approach was almost
taking me over the end of the runway I was expecting to use.
>
>Allen
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

Flew the Commanders in Seattle when I worked for Skycraft up there; flew the
6 in Tulsa when I worked for Bill Christiansen. Both are great aircraft - I
wouldn't be surprised if you can take the Commander apart and haul it in the
six.

I liked the seating in the Commander and the interior roominess better than
the 6 - but like someone else pointed out if you could get it in the 6, you
could fly it.

--
Jim Carter
Rogers, Arkansas
"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
...
> Bonehenge wrote:
>> There's always next year. -=8^(
>>
>> And I liked the Six so much more than the Commander.
>
>
> Me too. I've never flown a Commander but I've got a bunch of time flying
> a Six to some very nice places. Never a 260 though... always a 300. I
> understand the 260 actually has more useful load... which is already kind
> of scary. I used to carry 6 adults, baggage, and diving gear (except for
> tanks and weight belts) from North Carolina to various spots in the
> Bahamas (with staging in and out of the Vero Beach/ St. Lucie County
> area). One hell of a load... one hell of a bird.
>
> What did the guy who won the AOPA bird fly? C-130's? He's never gonna be
> satisfied with a Six. Schmuck.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Mortimer Schnerd, RN
> mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
>

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Jim Carter wrote:
> I liked the seating in the Commander and the interior roominess better than
> the 6 - but like someone else pointed out if you could get it in the 6, you
> could fly it.


So true. I used to use both a C-210 and the Six on my Bahamian runs. The 210
could make it nonstop but it was pretty tight for the folks in the back. It
also was tough finding space for all our crap. The Six didn't have the range or
the speed, but it definitely had the room. The rear seats were comfortable and
the forward baggage compartment made managing an aft CG pretty easy. Six
adults, full fuel, baggage and dive gear... we might waddle into the sky but I
never worried I wouldn't make it.

As many others have said, the limiting factor was whether you could get the
doors closed....




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[John T]

"Newps" > wrote in message

>
> 45 days.

....and do they really use tapes? I thought it was all hard drives now.

--
John T
http://sage1solutions.com/blogs/TknoFlyer
Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://openspf.org
____________________