Hawk XP TBO

[Johnny Google]

Hi all,

I've been looking at the possibilty of buying and owning a 1977 Hawk
XP that is very near its 1500 TBO.

As I understand it, starting in 1979, the engine TBO went to 2000.

What is the difference and can the 2000 TBO engine be put in the 1977
Hawk XP?
Or can the changes that make it a 2000 TBO vs 1500 TBO be applied to
the enginer during a rebuild?

What costs are involved in making this change?

What other differences are there between a 1979-1981 Hawk XP and a
1977?

Thanks,

John

[Blueskies]

"Johnny Google" > wrote in message
oups.com...
: Hi all,
:
: I've been looking at the possibilty of buying and owning a 1977 Hawk
: XP that is very near its 1500 TBO.
:
: As I understand it, starting in 1979, the engine TBO went to 2000.
:
: What is the difference and can the 2000 TBO engine be put in the 1977
: Hawk XP?
: Or can the changes that make it a 2000 TBO vs 1500 TBO be applied to
: the enginer during a rebuild?
:
: What costs are involved in making this change?
:
: What other differences are there between a 1979-1981 Hawk XP and a
: 1977?
:
: Thanks,
:
: John
:


TBO number is just a recommendation for USA CFR 14 part 91 operations...

[Ron]

I understand to beef up the engine from the IO-360-K to the IO-360-KB
(2000), one needs a stronger crankcase and crankshaft.

Costs?

Differences between the years:
The FAA TCDS 3A17 page 20 shows the IO-360-KB commenced installation in S/N
R1722930 - thru to 3454 (ie from year 1979-1981).

I cannot see any other differences other than TBO.

Why are peoples thoughts on a FADEC installtion, when approved for that
engine?

regards
Ron



"Blueskies" > wrote in message
. net...
>
> "Johnny Google" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> : Hi all,
> :
> : I've been looking at the possibilty of buying and owning a 1977 Hawk
> : XP that is very near its 1500 TBO.
> :
> : As I understand it, starting in 1979, the engine TBO went to 2000.
> :
> : What is the difference and can the 2000 TBO engine be put in the 1977
> : Hawk XP?
> : Or can the changes that make it a 2000 TBO vs 1500 TBO be applied to
> : the enginer during a rebuild?
> :
> : What costs are involved in making this change?
> :
> : What other differences are there between a 1979-1981 Hawk XP and a
> : 1977?
> :
> : Thanks,
> :
> : John
> :
>
>
> TBO number is just a recommendation for USA CFR 14 part 91 operations...
>
>

[Ron]

14V for R1722000-2724, then 28V for R1722725 (1978+) onwards.

[[email protected]]

On Apr 4, 8:36 pm, "Johnny Google" > wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've been looking at the possibilty of buying and owning a 1977 Hawk
> XP that is very near its 1500 TBO.
>
> As I understand it, starting in 1979, the engine TBO went to 2000.
>
> What is the difference and can the 2000 TBO engine be put in the 1977
> Hawk XP?
> Or can the changes that make it a 2000 TBO vs 1500 TBO be applied to
> the enginer during a rebuild?
>
> What costs are involved in making this change?
>
> What other differences are there between a 1979-1981 Hawk XP and a
> 1977?
>
> Thanks,
>
> John

Real question is: How is it running? Probability of going past TBO
depends a lot on the condition of the cylinders which depends a lot
on how often it's been flown and other factors.

The other thing that blows the whistle on these IO360 engines is
something
cracked on the case. I've seen this on turbo Skymasters especially.

If it's running OK, who cares where it is relative to TBO? Could
easily
go past 1500.

If it's not running OK, doesn't matter whether it's a KB or not. If
you
are up in the yellow arc of tbo, you will find that it won't be
economical
to fix a few bad cylinders and you will be facing TBO when cylinders
start to wheeze.

I have a hunch it won't make it much past 1500 in any event.
You should buy it as if it's run out and you have to major it
tommorrow.
And then you would upgrade it to a KB.

FWIW.

Bill Hale A&P

[Johnny Google]

On Apr 5, 8:34 am, " > wrote:
> On Apr 4, 8:36 pm, "Johnny Google" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hi all,
>
> > I've been looking at the possibilty of buying and owning a 1977 Hawk
> > XP that is very near its 1500 TBO.
>
> > As I understand it, starting in 1979, the engine TBO went to 2000.
>
> > What is the difference and can the 2000 TBO engine be put in the 1977
> > Hawk XP?
> > Or can the changes that make it a 2000 TBO vs 1500 TBO be applied to
> > the enginer during a rebuild?
>
> > What costs are involved in making this change?
>
> > What other differences are there between a 1979-1981 Hawk XP and a
> > 1977?
>
> > Thanks,
>
> > John
>
> Real question is: How is it running? Probability of going past TBO
> depends a lot on the condition of the cylinders which depends a lot
> on how often it's been flown and other factors.
>
> The other thing that blows the whistle on these IO360 engines is
> something
> cracked on the case. I've seen this on turbo Skymasters especially.
>
> If it's running OK, who cares where it is relative to TBO? Could
> easily
> go past 1500.
>
> If it's not running OK, doesn't matter whether it's a KB or not. If
> you
> are up in the yellow arc of tbo, you will find that it won't be
> economical
> to fix a few bad cylinders and you will be facing TBO when cylinders
> start to wheeze.
>
> I have a hunch it won't make it much past 1500 in any event.
> You should buy it as if it's run out and you have to major it
> tommorrow.
> And then you would upgrade it to a KB.
>
> FWIW.
>
> Bill Hale A&P- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Bill,

Actually, that is exactly what I was trying to make sure I *could* do
- my question was geared towards determining if it was possible, how
the change works - must you purchase a entirely different engine, or
does a particular modification change the engine from a K to a KB, and
what costs are involved in going from a K to a KB. (or is it the same
costs assuming it is time to overhaul anyway)

Thanks,

John

[Johnny Google]

On Apr 5, 9:56 am, "Johnny Google" > wrote:
> On Apr 5, 8:34 am, " > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 4, 8:36 pm, "Johnny Google" > wrote:
>
> > > Hi all,
>
> > > I've been looking at the possibilty of buying and owning a 1977 Hawk
> > > XP that is very near its 1500 TBO.
>
> > > As I understand it, starting in 1979, the engine TBO went to 2000.
>
> > > What is the difference and can the 2000 TBO engine be put in the 1977
> > > Hawk XP?
> > > Or can the changes that make it a 2000 TBO vs 1500 TBO be applied to
> > > the enginer during a rebuild?
>
> > > What costs are involved in making this change?
>
> > > What other differences are there between a 1979-1981 Hawk XP and a
> > > 1977?
>
> > > Thanks,
>
> > > John
>
> > Real question is: How is it running? Probability of going past TBO
> > depends a lot on the condition of the cylinders which depends a lot
> > on how often it's been flown and other factors.
>
> > The other thing that blows the whistle on these IO360 engines is
> > something
> > cracked on the case. I've seen this on turbo Skymasters especially.
>
> > If it's running OK, who cares where it is relative to TBO? Could
> > easily
> > go past 1500.
>
> > If it's not running OK, doesn't matter whether it's a KB or not. If
> > you
> > are up in the yellow arc of tbo, you will find that it won't be
> > economical
> > to fix a few bad cylinders and you will be facing TBO when cylinders
> > start to wheeze.
>
> > I have a hunch it won't make it much past 1500 in any event.
> > You should buy it as if it's run out and you have to major it
> > tommorrow.
> > And then you would upgrade it to a KB.
>
> > FWIW.
>
> > Bill Hale A&P- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Bill,
>
> Actually, that is exactly what I was trying to make sure I *could* do
> - my question was geared towards determining if it was possible, how
> the change works - must you purchase a entirely different engine, or
> does a particular modification change the engine from a K to a KB, and
> what costs are involved in going from a K to a KB. (or is it the same
> costs assuming it is time to overhaul anyway)
>
> Thanks,
>
> John- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -



Also wanted to note I agree that if the engine is running fine, I
won't be making this change or overhaul prematurely - just want to
know what options I have when I do have to overhaul.

[Johnny Google]

On Apr 5, 6:28 am, "Ron" > wrote:
> I understand to beef up the engine from the IO-360-K to the IO-360-KB
> (2000), one needs a stronger crankcase and crankshaft.
>
> Costs?
>
> Differences between the years:
> The FAA TCDS 3A17 page 20 shows the IO-360-KB commenced installation in S/N
> R1722930 - thru to 3454 (ie from year 1979-1981).
>
> I cannot see any other differences other than TBO.
>
> Why are peoples thoughts on a FADEC installtion, when approved for that
> engine?
>
> regards
> Ron
>
> "Blueskies" > wrote in message
>
> . net...
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Johnny Google" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > : Hi all,
> > :
> > : I've been looking at the possibilty of buying and owning a 1977 Hawk
> > : XP that is very near its 1500 TBO.
> > :
> > : As I understand it, starting in 1979, the engine TBO went to 2000.
> > :
> > : What is the difference and can the 2000 TBO engine be put in the 1977
> > : Hawk XP?
> > : Or can the changes that make it a 2000 TBO vs 1500 TBO be applied to
> > : the enginer during a rebuild?
> > :
> > : What costs are involved in making this change?
> > :
> > : What other differences are there between a 1979-1981 Hawk XP and a
> > : 1977?
> > :
> > : Thanks,
> > :
> > : John
> > :
>
> > TBO number is just a recommendation for USA CFR 14 part 91 operations...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Ron,

Thanks - so, one could make a K into a KB by replacing the crankshaft
and crankcase?
Is there a way to see if this is really all the changes? Perhaps
Continental or Cessna? Is there a online source to go and retrieve
information like this?

Thanks,

John

[JGalban via AviationKB.com]

Johnny Google wrote:
>Actually, that is exactly what I was trying to make sure I *could* do
>- my question was geared towards determining if it was possible, how
>the change works - must you purchase a entirely different engine, or
>does a particular modification change the engine from a K to a KB, and
>what costs are involved in going from a K to a KB. (or is it the same
>costs assuming it is time to overhaul anyway)
>

It's possible to change an engine from one model to another at overhaul.
If the differences are simple, it can be done by an overhaul shop. The
devil is in the details, and Continental will be the keeper of the details in
this case. The more common option is to swap your old K for a KB at overhaul
time. The case and the crankshaft represent the two most expensive parts to
replace. It may actually be cheaper to do a swap.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com

[Johnny Google]

On Apr 5, 2:54 pm, "JGalban via AviationKB.com" <u32749@uwe> wrote:
> Johnny Google wrote:
> >Actually, that is exactly what I was trying to make sure I *could* do
> >- my question was geared towards determining if it was possible, how
> >the change works - must you purchase a entirely different engine, or
> >does a particular modification change the engine from a K to a KB, and
> >what costs are involved in going from a K to a KB. (or is it the same
> >costs assuming it is time to overhaul anyway)
>
> It's possible to change an engine from one model to another at overhaul.
> If the differences are simple, it can be done by an overhaul shop. The
> devil is in the details, and Continental will be the keeper of the details in
> this case. The more common option is to swap your old K for a KB at overhaul
> time. The case and the crankshaft represent the two most expensive parts to
> replace. It may actually be cheaper to do a swap.
>
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
>
> --
> Message posted viahttp://www.aviationkb.com



Thanks - Does someone have recent / realistic costs associated with
swapping a K for a KB at overhaul on a 172 XP?
Is it a standard rebuilt engine cost for the KB (if so - what is this
cost for this engine) and would get some sort of core or exchange
value for the K you are 'swaping' ?

Assuming that even if I get another 500 hours out of this 360-K, I
would like to know what total costs will be involved in swapping out
for a 360-KB? Any one recently gone through this with their XP?

Thanks,

John

[[email protected][_1_]]

On 6 Apr 2007 00:31:21 -0700, "Johnny Google"
> wrote:


>Thanks - Does someone have recent / realistic costs associated with
>swapping a K for a KB at overhaul on a 172 XP?
>Is it a standard rebuilt engine cost for the KB (if so - what is this
>cost for this engine) and would get some sort of core or exchange
>value for the K you are 'swaping' ?

If you want real numbers, perhaps you should contact someone in the
business of overhauling engines. Unfortunately, there really is no
such animal as a "standard overhaul price".

The overall condition of an engine that has apparently only had less
than 1500 hours of run time in the last 30 years is anybody's guess.

Unless it has been short- or long-term corrosion protected in this
period of time, the condition is likely to be poor.

As others have indicated, this is a 30 year old engine that was
subject to a fairly major upgrade 29 years ago and is at/approaching
recomended TBO. In reality, it has no real-world value other than
maybe being a core engine.

Somebody would probably be able to answer some of your questions at
one of these facilities (in no particular order):

http://www.zephyrengines.com/homepage.html

http://www.gnaircraft.com/

http://www.overhaul.com/

http://www.aircraftoverhauls.com/

http://www.lycon.com/

http://www.menaaircraftengines.com/

http://www.mattituck.com/

http://www.firewallforward.com/

http://www.westernskyways.com/

http://www.victor-aviation.com/nav.shtml?company.shtml

http://www.airmarkoverhaul.com/

http://www.pennyanaero.com/

http://www.factoryengines.com/

>Assuming that even if I get another 500 hours out of this 360-K, I
>would like to know what total costs will be involved in swapping out
>for a 360-KB? Any one recently gone through this with their XP?

For the most part, an engine change is an engine change is an engine
change. The dollars are in the details.

Are you going to repair/renew baffling? Repair/replace exhaust
components? New hoses? Re-work the engine mount?

Some might need a couple more hoses, some might need a few less. Some
engine shock mounts are more $$, some are less $$.

I am not trying to discourage you, or muddy the waters-the odds of
someone posting here that has recently had a 360K converted to a KB
and hung on an XP are pretty slim.

Honestly, I didn't think there were that many K (as in non-KB) engines
still flying around.

TC

[[email protected]]

On Apr 6, 7:13 am, wrote:
> On 6 Apr 2007 00:31:21 -0700, "Johnny Google"
>
> > wrote:
> >Thanks - Does someone have recent / realistic costs associated with
> >swapping a K for a KB at overhaul on a 172 XP?
> >Is it a standard rebuilt engine cost for the KB (if so - what is this
> >cost for this engine) and would get some sort of core or exchange
> >value for the K you are 'swaping' ?
>
> If you want real numbers, perhaps you should contact someone in the
> business of overhauling engines. Unfortunately, there really is no
> such animal as a "standard overhaul price".
>
> The overall condition of an engine that has apparently only had less
> than 1500 hours of run time in the last 30 years is anybody's guess.
>
> Unless it has been short- or long-term corrosion protected in this
> period of time, the condition is likely to be poor.
>
> As others have indicated, this is a 30 year old engine that was
> subject to a fairly major upgrade 29 years ago and is at/approaching
> recomended TBO. In reality, it has no real-world value other than
> maybe being a core engine.
>
> Somebody would probably be able to answer some of your questions at
> one of these facilities (in no particular order):
>
> http://www.zephyrengines.com/homepage.html
>
> http://www.gnaircraft.com/
>
> http://www.overhaul.com/
>
> http://www.aircraftoverhauls.com/
>
> http://www.lycon.com/
>
> http://www.menaaircraftengines.com/
>
> http://www.mattituck.com/
>
> http://www.firewallforward.com/
>
> http://www.westernskyways.com/
>
> http://www.victor-aviation.com/nav.shtml?company.shtml
>
> http://www.airmarkoverhaul.com/
>
> http://www.pennyanaero.com/
>
> http://www.factoryengines.com/
>
> >Assuming that even if I get another 500 hours out of this 360-K, I
> >would like to know what total costs will be involved in swapping out
> >for a 360-KB? Any one recently gone through this with their XP?
>
> For the most part, an engine change is an engine change is an engine
> change. The dollars are in the details.
>
> Are you going to repair/renew baffling? Repair/replace exhaust
> components? New hoses? Re-work the engine mount?
>
> Some might need a couple more hoses, some might need a few less. Some
> engine shock mounts are more $$, some are less $$.
>
> I am not trying to discourage you, or muddy the waters-the odds of
> someone posting here that has recently had a 360K converted to a KB
> and hung on an XP are pretty slim.
>
> Honestly, I didn't think there were that many K (as in non-KB) engines
> still flying around.
>
> TC

If you want to upgrade it to a -KB, you should plan on a factory re-
man.

This will prove to be the only economical approach. Why? Because
the factory gets a deal on the expensive pieces required that the
overhauler
guy doesn't! Another option would be to find a partially runout -KB.
Probably more cost effective.

Bill H.