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CFA3
July 18th 03, 10:53 PM
I recently read a report about the next round of base closures, and
was quite surprized to see NELLIS AFB on the list. In many ways I can
see it, in that it is nearly completely encroached upon by Vegas
growth and the size, being relatively small. Currently, there are
issues of security, as well, since you can walk right up to the fence
on the north end and practicaly spit on the a/c as they fly overhead.
(Not that this patriot would do such a thing of course).

Question is, should this happen, where would you move Range training
assets? Tonopah? Build new? Just wondering




C3
http://groomlakeaudubonsociety.netfirms.com

S. Sampson
July 19th 03, 01:37 AM
"CFA3" > wrote
>
> I recently read a report about the next round of base closures, and
> was quite surprized to see NELLIS AFB on the list. In many ways I can
> see it, in that it is nearly completely encroached upon by Vegas
> growth and the size, being relatively small. Currently, there are
> issues of security, as well, since you can walk right up to the fence
> on the north end and practicaly spit on the a/c as they fly overhead.
> (Not that this patriot would do such a thing of course).
>
> Question is, should this happen, where would you move Range training
> assets? Tonopah? Build new? Just wondering

Nevada is in pretty bad shape. Most of the range is under attack by
conservationists and property owners. Teachers and doctors are
fleeing the state, as the first can't buy insurance, and the second can't
afford to live there. Around Nellis you have a bunch of retired people
who flock to the commissary, and then complain about the jet noise
on the golf courses. During the in-briefing you are told to abandon the
jet, rather than overfly a golf course on emergency return. Aim it for the
desert, and give it back to the taxpayers.

Nellis and the red-flag/green-flag program will have to be moved. It is
no longer a viable range do to the politics of the state.

Kevin Brooks
July 19th 03, 04:38 AM
(CFA3) wrote in message >...
> I recently read a report about the next round of base closures, and
> was quite surprized to see NELLIS AFB on the list. In many ways I can
> see it, in that it is nearly completely encroached upon by Vegas
> growth and the size, being relatively small. Currently, there are
> issues of security, as well, since you can walk right up to the fence
> on the north end and practicaly spit on the a/c as they fly overhead.
> (Not that this patriot would do such a thing of course).
>
> Question is, should this happen, where would you move Range training
> assets? Tonopah? Build new? Just wondering
>
>
>
>
> C3

Just because a base is on the prelim list for study does not mean it
is really on-the-block. Nellis would likely be a very long shot in
terms of being selected for closure, especially since the whole idea
of BRAC is to ultimately *save* money--having to recreate current
Nellis facilities at Tonopah or elsewhere would seem to make a Nellis
closure a non-starter, especially since very few places in the region
offer the basic support infrastructure requirements that are resident
in the LV community. Imagine the water requirement alone...

Brooks

> http://groomlakeaudubonsociety.netfirms.com

John Carrier
July 19th 03, 12:14 PM
That "report" wasn't "2005 Base Closure Recommendations" downloaded and
circulated from the vanity web site g2mil.com was it?

Somehow the guy that runs the site, former (not evidently retired) Marine
Carlton Meyer, has an opinion about most everything military. He wants to
put modified boneyard A-10's (folding wings, hook, launch bar ... as if it
was that simple) on Carriers. He has a lot of other ideas. A few are even
pretty good, but then even a blind squirrel ....

His BRAC recommendations are primarily based on his philosophy that same
bases are too small to be effective, some too large to be efficient, and
some are JUUUSTTT RIGHT (AKA the Goldilocks principle).

What amazes me is that, not unlike the Flight 800 conspiracy crap, the
internet has allowed this loon to achieve legitimacy. His opinion was
circulated by a senior civilian in the Navy department. Let's hope Rummy's
BRAC group (and it will be run under SecDef, not the individual service
departments) isn't so foolish as to accept this a credible.

R / John

"CFA3" > wrote in message
om...
> I recently read a report about the next round of base closures, and
> was quite surprized to see NELLIS AFB on the list. In many ways I can
> see it, in that it is nearly completely encroached upon by Vegas
> growth and the size, being relatively small. Currently, there are
> issues of security, as well, since you can walk right up to the fence
> on the north end and practicaly spit on the a/c as they fly overhead.
> (Not that this patriot would do such a thing of course).
>
> Question is, should this happen, where would you move Range training
> assets? Tonopah? Build new? Just wondering
>
>
>
>
> C3
> http://groomlakeaudubonsociety.netfirms.com

ArtKramr
July 19th 03, 12:59 PM
>Subject: Re: Nellis on the Blocks (The upcoming 2005 Base Realignment And
>Closure)
>From: "John Carrier"
>Date: 7/19/03 4:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>That "report" wasn't "2005 Base Closure Recommendations" downloaded and
>circulated from the vanity web site g2mil.com was it?
>
>Somehow the guy that runs the site, former (not evidently retired) Marine
>Carlton Meyer, has an opinion about most everything military. He wants to
>put modified boneyard A-10's (folding wings, hook, launch bar ... as if it
>was that simple) on Carriers. He has a lot of other ideas. A few are even
>pretty good, but then even a blind squirrel ....
>
>His BRAC recommendations are primarily based on his philosophy that same
>bases are too small to be effective, some too large to be efficient, and
>some are JUUUSTTT RIGHT (AKA the Goldilocks principle).
>
>What amazes me is that, not unlike the Flight 800 conspiracy crap, the
>internet has allowed this loon to achieve legitimacy. His opinion was
>circulated by a senior civilian in the Navy department. Let's hope Rummy's
>BRAC group (and it will be run under SecDef, not the individual service
>departments) isn't so foolish as to accept this a credible.
>
>R / John
>
>"CFA3" > wrote in message
om...
>> I recently read a report about the next round of base closures, and
>> was quite surprized to see NELLIS AFB on the list. In many ways I can
>> see it, in that it is nearly completely encroached upon by Vegas
>> growth and the size, being relatively small. Currently, there are
>> issues of security, as well, since you can walk right up to the fence
>> on the north end and practicaly spit on the a/c as they fly overhead.
>> (Not that this patriot would do such a thing of course).
>>
>> Question is, should this happen, where would you move Range training
>> assets? Tonopah? Build new? Just wondering
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> C3
>> http://groomlakeaudubonsociety.netfirms.com
>
>


I'll be inside Nellis in about an hour. I'll ask Col.Bill if he has heard
anything.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

C Knowles
July 19th 03, 03:43 PM
WHAT list? I am not aware of any official or even semi-official list being
published.
Geez, everyone connected to a military base is speculating about the next
BRAC, if it even happens. Politics and economics will be the biggest factors
in base closures; I doubt that area needs a military base for economic
survival.
Curt

"CFA3" > wrote in message
om...
> I recently read a report about the next round of base closures, and
> was quite surprized to see NELLIS AFB on the list. In many ways I can
> see it, in that it is nearly completely encroached upon by Vegas
> growth and the size, being relatively small. Currently, there are
> issues of security, as well, since you can walk right up to the fence
> on the north end and practicaly spit on the a/c as they fly overhead.
> (Not that this patriot would do such a thing of course).
>
> Question is, should this happen, where would you move Range training
> assets? Tonopah? Build new? Just wondering
>
>
>
>
> C3
> http://groomlakeaudubonsociety.netfirms.com

S. Sampson
July 19th 03, 04:43 PM
> Question is, should this happen, where would you move Range training
> assets? Tonopah? Build new? Just wondering

The two ranges being expanded (electronically) are Cold Lake, Alberta,
and Goose Bay, Labrador. Both offer the same as Las Vegas, with none
of the politics. The communities support the ranges.

Andrew Chaplin
July 19th 03, 04:59 PM
"S. Sampson" wrote:
>
> > Question is, should this happen, where would you move Range training
> > assets? Tonopah? Build new? Just wondering
>
> The two ranges being expanded (electronically) are Cold Lake, Alberta,
> and Goose Bay, Labrador. Both offer the same as Las Vegas, with none
> of the politics. The communities support the ranges.

Goose Bay brings politics of its own; the local Innu are ****ed off
because low-flying stresses the caribou herds on which they depend for
food, or so they believe.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

begme
July 19th 03, 05:21 PM
If Nellis is a shock, what about Rosy Rds.?

"CFA3" > wrote in message
om...
> I recently read a report about the next round of base closures, and
> was quite surprized to see NELLIS AFB on the list. In many ways I can
> see it, in that it is nearly completely encroached upon by Vegas
> growth and the size, being relatively small. Currently, there are
> issues of security, as well, since you can walk right up to the fence
> on the north end and practicaly spit on the a/c as they fly overhead.
> (Not that this patriot would do such a thing of course).
>
> Question is, should this happen, where would you move Range training
> assets? Tonopah? Build new? Just wondering
>
>
>
>
> C3
> http://groomlakeaudubonsociety.netfirms.com

BUFDRVR
July 19th 03, 11:57 PM
> Around Nellis you have a bunch of retired people
>who flock to the commissary, and then complain about the jet noise
>on the golf courses.

Love the southern departure altitude restrictions. No problem in a BUFF with a
RED FLAG fuel load (100K), but for redeployment its kind of interesting. All in
the name of a peaceful round of golf....


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Richard Caldwell
July 20th 03, 01:39 AM
Kevin Brooks wrote in message
>...
(CFA3) wrote in message
>...

>>>> SNIP ORIGINAL POST <<<<

Speaking of Nellis AFB and its surrounding area, I just read a post on
another NG that
states that the Red Flag exercises, which had previously been cancelled
because of
Iraq, have been re-scheduled for August 1 - 29. I have no way to confirm
that myself,
but I think it is relevant to any discussion about closing Nellis.

Richard Caldwell

av8r
July 20th 03, 02:01 AM
Hi

I was at Goose Bay for four years. The low level flying was never an
issue until some bleeding heart left wing liberal tree huggers took it
upon themselves to go on a crusade on behalf of the Innu. These
'misguided' individuals were nothing but a bunch of **** disturbers,
most of whom had never heard of Goose Bay before. The George River
Caribou herd (the largest herd in the world, estimated at more that
800,000 animals) is the largest it has been in many years. The
existence of the NATO low level flying training program is the economic
foundation of the region. Without it, the region would die an agonizing
death.

Cheers...Chris

Andrew Chaplin
July 20th 03, 04:28 AM
av8r wrote:

> I was at Goose Bay for four years. The low level flying was never an
> issue until some bleeding heart left wing liberal tree huggers took it
> upon themselves to go on a crusade on behalf of the Innu. These
> 'misguided' individuals were nothing but a bunch of **** disturbers,
> most of whom had never heard of Goose Bay before. The George River
> Caribou herd (the largest herd in the world, estimated at more that
> 800,000 animals) is the largest it has been in many years. The
> existence of the NATO low level flying training program is the economic
> foundation of the region. Without it, the region would die an agonizing
> death.

I'll be sure to inquire while I'm there next week.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

Walt BJ
July 20th 03, 05:06 AM
Between the noise-whiners and the real estate developers unless a base
is needed for vital defense reasons it's soon a goner. Look at the
earlier ones to get the axe. George AFB was in a great location -
chop! Hamilton - chop.
I wonder how long Luke will last. As for Goose Bay and Cold Lake -
madness! It's cold up there!
Walt BJ

Dave Kearton
July 20th 03, 05:22 AM
"av8r" > wrote in message
...
| Hi
|
| I was at Goose Bay for four years. The low level flying was never an
| issue until some bleeding heart left wing liberal tree huggers took it
| upon themselves to go on a crusade on behalf of the Innu. These
| 'misguided' individuals were nothing but a bunch of **** disturbers,
| most of whom had never heard of Goose Bay before. The George River
| Caribou herd (the largest herd in the world, estimated at more that
| 800,000 animals) is the largest it has been in many years. The
| existence of the NATO low level flying training program is the economic
| foundation of the region. Without it, the region would die an agonizing
| death.
|
| Cheers...Chris




Surely the exercises would pose _some_ additional risk to the Caribou - the
taller ones at least.




Cheers

Dave Kearton

S. Sampson
July 20th 03, 01:55 PM
"Walt BJ" > wrote
>
>. As for Goose Bay and Cold Lake - madness! It's cold up there!

I went up to Cold Lake in the winter, and it was sort of like Iceland.
Not much snow on the ground, but your nose freezes and then you
hear this cracking sound in your head :-) I didn't think it was as bad
as Minot though. I think Minot was the only place I ever wore my
nomex long johns... The food on-base was pretty bad (I found a
button in my mashed potatoes), and downtown is completely unlike
Vegas :-) No threat of a Tailhook convention up there.

av8r
July 20th 03, 04:09 PM
Hi Andrew

While you are in Happy Valley visit Uncle Sam's Butcher Shop at 13
Hillcrest Road. He sells all sorts of caribou meat products, smoked
salmon and trout. I highly recommend it. Gawd I'm getting hungry just
thinking of it. Watch the holes on the Trans-Labrador Highway. They
might be confused with craters on the moon. Have a safe and wonderful
trip and I expect lots of stunning pix and good narratives to go with them.

Cheers...Chris

av8r
July 20th 03, 04:25 PM
Hi Walt

Why is it that these NIMBY's build a house under the flight path of an
airport and then they complain of the noise. What the hell did they
expect. How frigging stupid are they. Ah, don't answer that I know
already! There are lots of airports in danger of having air ops
severely restricted as a result of housing developers slowly encroaching
on them. I have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for these idiots.

The Goose can still get pretty nippy in the winter. I was up there from
64 to 67 as an Air Force Brat, then again in 78 with the Air Force and
and been up four times on TDY since 92. It is not as cold as say 30 or
40 years ago when it used to get regular temperatures of 30 below zero.
It's a raw damp cold too. Back then the average annual snow fall was 14
feet. the big reservoir to the west as tempered the harsh WX somewhat.

When were you at on the Goose Walt?

Cheers...Chris

Brian Colwell
July 20th 03, 04:53 PM
"Walt BJ" > wrote in message
om...
> Between the noise-whiners and the real estate developers unless a base
> is needed for vital defense reasons it's soon a goner. Look at the
> earlier ones to get the axe. George AFB was in a great location -
> chop! Hamilton - chop.
> I wonder how long Luke will last. As for Goose Bay and Cold Lake -
> madness! It's cold up there!
> Walt BJ


Your right Walt, but its a dry cold :-))

BMC

Brian
July 20th 03, 05:22 PM
"Brian Colwell" > wrote in message
. ca...
>
> "Walt BJ" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Between the noise-whiners and the real estate developers unless a base
> > is needed for vital defense reasons it's soon a goner. Look at the
> > earlier ones to get the axe. George AFB was in a great location -
> > chop! Hamilton - chop.
> > I wonder how long Luke will last. As for Goose Bay and Cold Lake -
> > madness! It's cold up there!
> > Walt BJ
>
>
> Your right Walt, but its a dry cold :-))

Reminds me of the question "Why do they call it Cold Lake?".....Cuz it's
COLD!

July 20th 03, 06:00 PM
On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 12:55:43 GMT, "S. Sampson" > wrote:

>"Walt BJ" > wrote
>>
>>. As for Goose Bay and Cold Lake - madness! It's cold up there!
>
>I went up to Cold Lake in the winter, and it was sort of like Iceland.
>Not much snow on the ground, but your nose freezes and then you
>hear this cracking sound in your head :-) I didn't think it was as bad
>as Minot though. I think Minot was the only place I ever wore my
>nomex long johns... The food on-base was pretty bad (I found a
>button in my mashed potatoes), and downtown is completely unlike
>Vegas :-) No threat of a Tailhook convention up there.

If you think Minot was bad you should have been at Glasgow.<G>

S. Sampson
July 20th 03, 07:18 PM
"BUFDRVR" > wrote
>
> Love the southern departure altitude restrictions. No problem in a BUFF with a
> RED FLAG fuel load (100K), but for redeployment its kind of interesting. All in
> the name of a peaceful round of golf....

Better yet is they always clear you for the TACAN high approach even if you
identify "heavy." Go for it!

Nellis: Cleared TACAN high
Pilot: crew, cleared for the high
nav: negative
co: negative
engineer: no way, we'll be over the fricking golf course at .9 Mach...

av8r
July 20th 03, 09:07 PM
Hi Brian

It's really a damp cold versus a dry cold at Goose Bay. The cold air
blows in from the Labrador Sea with a high moisture content. You should
have seen the southern U.S. based Air National Guard KC-97 alert tanker
crews pulling 90 days TDY (Reflex Action) in the middle of the winter.
It was hilarious. Some of the regulars assigned to Goose Air Base would
meet the arriving aircraft in shorts and T-shirts.

Cheers...Chris

patrick savoie
July 21st 03, 12:51 AM
Used to be similiar reception for Bahamian Defense Force technicians who
arrived in Bagovtille back in the 70's & 80's. They took technician training
for helicopter at our school. (Saguenay region of Quebec, Canada ... not as
far north as Goose Bay or Cold Lake .... but 2.5 hours north of Quebec City
.... still cold).

They would actually "run" from the transport a/c into a heated bus .. then
brought immediately to a clothing supply for sweater, winter coats, gloves,
etc.... and this was only october! Everybody else was just wearing a light
coat.

Always a funny site when they saw their first snow fall and the instructors
would have to go to the barracks and order them outside. Some of them would
be afraid to go outside and refused to go to class. ;)

Pat

"av8r" > a écrit dans le message de
...
>
> Hi Brian
>
> It's really a damp cold versus a dry cold at Goose Bay. The cold air
> blows in from the Labrador Sea with a high moisture content. You should
> have seen the southern U.S. based Air National Guard KC-97 alert tanker
> crews pulling 90 days TDY (Reflex Action) in the middle of the winter.
> It was hilarious. Some of the regulars assigned to Goose Air Base would
> meet the arriving aircraft in shorts and T-shirts.
>
> Cheers...Chris
>

Thomas Schoene
July 23rd 03, 03:41 AM
"begme" > wrote in message

> If Nellis is a shock, what about Rosy Rds.?

Roosevelt Roads is almost certainly going away; I think there is language in
the FY 04 Authoriztion allowing its closure. The logic is that there's not
much point to keeping it when we no longer have Vieques. I doubt anyone will
be surprised to see it go.

--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

IBM
July 23rd 03, 04:47 AM
"Thomas Schoene" > wrote in
et:

> "begme" > wrote in message
>
>> If Nellis is a shock, what about Rosy Rds.?
>
> Roosevelt Roads is almost certainly going away; I think there is
> language in the FY 04 Authoriztion allowing its closure. The logic is
> that there's not much point to keeping it when we no longer have
> Vieques. I doubt anyone will be surprised to see it go.

Except, of course, the locals who perhaps got more than they
bargained for when they got Vieques closed.

IBM

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