Re: German historian provokes row over war photos

[BackToNormal]

> German historian provokes row over war photos
>
> Luke Harding in Berlin
> Tuesday October 21, 2003
> The Guardian
>
> A controversial German historian is at the centre of a row over his latest
> book which includes gruesome photos of German civilians killed by allied
> bombing during the second world war.
> Jörg Friedrich defended the decision yesterday to publish the photographs
> showing the incinerated bodies of German women and children, most of them
> killed by British bombs.
>
> His book, Fire Sites, published at last week's Frankfurt Book Fair, argues
> that the RAF's relentless bombing campaign against German cities in the
> last months of the war served no military purpose.
>
> He claims that Winston Churchill's decision to bomb a shattered Germany
> between January and May 1945 was a war crime.
>
> "The bombing left an entire generation traumatised.
>
> But it was never discussed," he told the Guardian. <snip>
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/article/0,2763,1067259,00.html

Another one.

ronh
--
"People do not make decisions on facts, rather,
how they feel about the facts" Robert Consedine

[Cub Driver]

>> His book, Fire Sites, published at last week's Frankfurt Book Fair, argues
>> that the RAF's relentless bombing campaign against German cities in the
>> last months of the war served no military purpose.

This is a tired old argument. Of course the Allied bombing campaign
(it wasn't just British) served a miitary purpose. Every flak gun
aimed at the Lancasters and Fortresses was a flak gun that *wasn't*
aimed at the advancing American and Russian tanks. Every flak crew was
five men who weren't otherwise engaged in shooting at the troops on
the ground.

>>
>> He claims that Winston Churchill's decision to bomb a shattered Germany
>> between January and May 1945 was a war crime.

We have so fixed history that soon anyone who defends himself will be
tried as awar criminal. Vide the European view of Israel.

(And it wasn't Churchill's decision any more than it was Roosevelt's.)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[The Revolution Will Not Be Televised]

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 09:20:48 +1300,
(BackToNormal) wrote:

>> German historian provokes row over war photos
>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/article/0,2763,1067259,00.html
>
>Another one.

According to the Grauniad interview on that link:

"Friedrich is unrepentant. "Churchill was the greatest
child-slaughterer of all time. He slaughtered 76,000 children," he
said."

- sits a few paragrpahs above:

"Friedrich admits he is a revisionist, but says he is not interested
in making moral judgements, merely in what happened."

So, hypocrisy, rampant hyperbole and avowed revisionism. I wonder
what could explain that?

"During the sixties, Friedrich moved to Berlin, took part in the '68
movement, and became a Trotskyite radical."

Well, that explains it. Another Trot shock-jock with the latest in
the customary series of "new and contraversial revelations" that are
nothing of the sort. Overturning the conventional wisdom to recruit
cadre from the resulting disillusioned mass is too hackneyed for words
at this point.

Gavin Bailey


--

"Will Boogie Down For Food".- Sign held by Disco Stu outside the unemployment office.

[Keith Willshaw]

"The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" > wrote in
message ...
> On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 09:20:48 +1300,
> (BackToNormal) wrote:
>
> >> German historian provokes row over war photos
> >> http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/article/0,2763,1067259,00.html
> >
> >Another one.
>
> According to the Grauniad interview on that link:
>
> "Friedrich is unrepentant. "Churchill was the greatest
> child-slaughterer of all time. He slaughtered 76,000 children," he
> said."
>

A philanthropist in comparison with the enlightened leaders
of the USSR, Japan and Germany who killed millions.

Keith

[Tarver Engineering]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> >> His book, Fire Sites, published at last week's Frankfurt Book Fair,
argues
> >> that the RAF's relentless bombing campaign against German cities in the
> >> last months of the war served no military purpose.
>
> This is a tired old argument. Of course the Allied bombing campaign
> (it wasn't just British) served a miitary purpose. Every flak gun
> aimed at the Lancasters and Fortresses was a flak gun that *wasn't*
> aimed at the advancing American and Russian tanks. Every flak crew was
> five men who weren't otherwise engaged in shooting at the troops on
> the ground.

Retribution is an ugly thing.

[Tuollaf43]

Cub Driver > wrote in message >...
> >> His book, Fire Sites, published at last week's Frankfurt Book Fair, argues
> >> that the RAF's relentless bombing campaign against German cities in the
> >> last months of the war served no military purpose.
>
> This is a tired old argument. Of course the Allied bombing campaign
> (it wasn't just British) served a miitary purpose. Every flak gun
> aimed at the Lancasters and Fortresses was a flak gun that *wasn't*
> aimed at the advancing American and Russian tanks. Every flak crew was
> five men who weren't otherwise engaged in shooting at the troops on
> the ground.

Wow! Amazing reasoning.

OK. In 2005 Al-Qaida (or your favorite axis of evil flavor of the
month) nukes Chicago with a smuggled tactical nuke. I suppose you will
consider it perfectly justified and above reproach because it serves a
military purpose - take resources away from fighting in the ME and
divert them to internal security within the US mainland.

Fact remains that Churchill WAS a war criminal. Only he won, so he
officially wasnt. That's life - but it aint truth.

[Tuollaf43]

> > "Friedrich is unrepentant. "Churchill was the greatest
> > child-slaughterer of all time. He slaughtered 76,000 children," he
> > said."
> >
>
> A philanthropist in comparison with the enlightened leaders
> of the USSR, Japan and Germany who killed millions.
>
> Keith

Well if that are your standards of comparision then Saddam Hussain was a boy scout.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: German historian provokes row over war photos
>From: (Tuollaf43)
>Date: 10/22/03 2:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>> > "Friedrich is unrepentant. "Churchill was the greatest
>> > child-slaughterer of all time. He slaughtered 76,000 children," he
>> > said."
>> >
>>
>> A philanthropist in comparison with the enlightened leaders
>> of the USSR, Japan and Germany who killed millions.
>>
>> Keith
>
>Well if that are your standards of comparision then Saddam Hussain was a boy
>scout.


There was only one war criminal in WW II HITLER If there was no Hitler there
would hve been no WW II and the 55 million who died would all have lived.
Blaming Churchill is like a murderer blaming the victim. It fools no one. The
criminal acts of theNazis can't be explained away nor can others be blamed for
their crimes. But if ever they rise again we will be back. And this time no
more Mr. Nice Guy as Churchill was.
..
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
> If there was no Hitler there would hve been no WW II and the 55 million
who
> died would all have lived.
>

That can't be known. Even if Corporal Hitler had been killed in the Great
War events could still have transpired leading to another war and the need
for Roman numerals to differentiate them.

[Autocollimator]

>Subject: Re: German historian provokes row over war photos
>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>Date: 10/22/03 2:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: t>
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> If there was no Hitler there would hve been no WW II and the 55 million
>who
>> died would all have lived.
>>
>
>That can't be known. Even if Corporal Hitler had been killed in the Great
>War events could still have transpired leading to another war and the need
>for Roman numerals to differentiate them.
>
>
We don't know what might have happened. We only know what did happen to the
everlasting shame of the German people.

[The Enlightenment]

(Autocollimator) wrote in message >...
> >Subject: Re: German historian provokes row over war photos
> >From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
> >Date: 10/22/03 2:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: t>
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> If there was no Hitler there would hve been no WW II and the 55 million
> who
> >> died would all have lived.
> >>
> >
> >That can't be known. Even if Corporal Hitler had been killed in the Great
> >War events could still have transpired leading to another war and the need
> >for Roman numerals to differentiate them.
> >
> >
> We don't know what might have happened. We only know what did happen to the
> everlasting shame of the German people.

"Eternal Shame". Yes of couse guilt is heriditary especialy so when
it comes to Germans or White people in America and Europe. A usefull
concept if you want to destry a culture and the race that this culture
nurtures and sustains. Genocide and Ethnocide by stealth.

It's also a racist concept. (Noting wrong with that except it's a
double standard)

Tell me what are your racial and antecedents? Can you be shamed
eternaly commiting genocide upon the Caananites, or were your
ancestors from the SE of Eruope one of those turks or mongols that
ranged as far north as Moscow, Vienna and Warsaw in the 8th-14th
century taking slaves and killing their parents?

Perhaps you were one of the English that murdered Celtic Scotts at
Culloden? or a French Catholic who expelled the Huegenots? I'm sure
we can pin something on you in recent History. As an american I hope
you get to enjoy paying for affirmitve action, racial set asides and
soon "reperations". For ever.

The Germans and the Nazis had no truck with the English, French or
anyone else in Western Europe. They were concerend with the 3.5
million German speaking Austrians on their border (previously Bavarian
but ended up as Austo-Hungarian by marriage in 1500) than ended up in
the Sudentenland as part of Czechoslovakia. (Against the Armistice).
There if you care to check the League of nations to find thousands of
records of depracations and crimes against German ethnics. This was
not a Nazi fabrication. They were supposed to be offered a swiss style
confederation but it was clear that the Polish and Czech Nationalists
were not about to be generous and had no such intention. (The issue
of Polish East Prussia is more complcated as it appears to have been
contested for 2000 years. Roman Historian Tacitus does mention a
Germanic tribe the "Preusi" living on the Vistuala in Present Poland
then Prussia)

Notably Tyrolean Austrians forced into Italy but treated decently
experience no such depracations.

They, the Nazis and Germans, were concerned similarly with the more
potent threat of Stalin where even before his ascention in 1932 had
seen a Bolschevic butcher and expullsion of millions of people on the
basis of ethnicticiy.

At the end of the war for a momment Churchill recognised the folly at
one level when he said re hitler vs Stalin "Looks like we Butchered
the Wrong *******" and Patton, by then Governor of Bavaria expressed
similar sentiments.

As far as jews go, yes that was a crime. The Germans resented their
power. They made up more than 50% to 75% the doctors and lawyers in
Berlin and Vienna. They owned ALL of the department stores. They
dominated the media like they do in the USA today. Their oh so fine
marxist intellectuals mocked German attempts at cohesion in a
competitive world in which they were under attack and promoted class
warfare. Records show that soviet Secret Police the NKVD that murdered
4.5 million Ukranians were 10.8% Jewish. (Ukrain was 0.6% Jewish and
the Soviet Union 4%) No wonder so many Ukranians helped the Nazis.

They sowed the wind and they reaped the whirlwind. To bad about the
ordinary Jews right? but according to you that doesn't matter. It is
to their "eternal shame" perhaps for Jews as for Germans. You can't
have one without promoting the other.

[Tuollaf43]

> >> If there was no Hitler there would hve been no WW II and the 55 million
> who
> >> died would all have lived.
> >>
> >
> >That can't be known. Even if Corporal Hitler had been killed in the Great
> >War events could still have transpired leading to another war and the need
> >for Roman numerals to differentiate them.
> >
> >
> We don't know what might have happened. We only know what did happen to the
> everlasting shame of the German people.

Well atleast the Germans/Japs today have the decency to be ashamed of
the misdeeds of their forefathers.

All I know is if the Germans had won the war (by some miraculous turn
of fortunes in 1945) today the Brits would have been hanging their
heads in their 'everlasting shame' when talk turned to Bomber Harris
et al while the Germans would have been defending Herr Eichman for his
'necessary if unpleasant' duties for the state.

[Peter Twydell]

In article >,
Autocollimator > writes
>>Subject: Re: German historian provokes row over war photos
>>From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
>>Date: 10/22/03 2:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>>Message-id: t>
>>
>>
>>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>> If there was no Hitler there would hve been no WW II and the 55 million
>>who
>>> died would all have lived.
>>>
>>
>>That can't be known. Even if Corporal Hitler had been killed in the Great
>>War events could still have transpired leading to another war and the need
>>for Roman numerals to differentiate them.
>>
>>
> We don't know what might have happened. We only know what did happen to the
>everlasting shame of the German people.
>
>
Only to the shame of the generation who were fooled into voting the
NSDAP into power. You can hardly blame their descendants, although there
are always some idiots who do. The sins of the fathers, and all that.
--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

[Stephen Harding]

Peter Twydell wrote:

> Only to the shame of the generation who were fooled into voting the
> NSDAP into power. You can hardly blame their descendants, although there
> are always some idiots who do. The sins of the fathers, and all that.

No, you can't blame generations after the events, but those generations
will still be saddled with the shame (if the government/people have any
sense of decency) of those events.

Americans have pre-20th century Indian policies and slavery to live down.
You Brits perhaps actions in Ireland or China or India.

No matter how many generations proceed beyond WWII, Germans will have
Hitler.


SMH

[Autocollimator]

>Subject: Re: German historian provokes row over war photos
>From: Peter Twydell
>Date: 10/23/03 12:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time

>Only to the shame of the generation who were fooled into voting the
>NSDAP into power. You can hardly blame their descendants, although there
>are always some idiots who do

Then there are those idiots who don't know that to this day there are many
Germans who believe in Hitler and the Nazi cause and want to bring it all back
These are the worst idiots of all..

[Autocollimator]

>Subject: Re: German historian provokes row over war photos
>From: Stephen Harding
>Date: 10/23/03 1:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Peter Twydell wrote:
>
>> Only to the shame of the generation who were fooled into voting the
>> NSDAP into power. You can hardly blame their descendants, although there
>> are always some idiots who do. The sins of the fathers, and all that.
>
>No, you can't blame generations after the events, but those generations
>will still be saddled with the shame (if the government/people have any
>sense of decency) of those events.
>
>Americans have pre-20th century Indian policies and slavery to live down.
>You Brits perhaps actions in Ireland or China or India.
>
>No matter how many generations proceed beyond WWII, Germans will have
>Hitler.
>
>
>SMH


Sadly true.

[Tarver Engineering]

"The Enlightenment" > wrote in message
om...
> (Autocollimator) wrote in message
>...
> > >Subject: Re: German historian provokes row over war photos
> > >From: "Steven P. McNicoll"
> > >Date: 10/22/03 2:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> > >Message-id: t>
> > >
> > >
> > >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >>
> > >> If there was no Hitler there would hve been no WW II and the 55
million
> > who
> > >> died would all have lived.
> > >>
> > >
> > >That can't be known. Even if Corporal Hitler had been killed in the
Great
> > >War events could still have transpired leading to another war and the
need
> > >for Roman numerals to differentiate them.
> > >
> > >
> > We don't know what might have happened. We only know what did happen to
the
> > everlasting shame of the German people.
>
> "Eternal Shame". Yes of couse guilt is heriditary especialy so when
> it comes to Germans or White people in America and Europe. A usefull
> concept if you want to destry a culture and the race that this culture
> nurtures and sustains. Genocide and Ethnocide by stealth.
>
> It's also a racist concept. (Noting wrong with that except it's a
> double standard)

Eugenics is science, but I can see how a Government might be racist. The
same convergence of science, religion and racism was quite popular in the US
as well in the 1920s. An identical set of ideas ruled the southern US, sans
eugenics.

[Tarver Engineering]

"The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" > wrote in
message ...
> On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:20:33 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> > wrote:
>
> >> If there was no Hitler there would hve been no WW II and the 55 million
who
> >> died would all have lived.
> >>
> >
> >That can't be known. Even if Corporal Hitler had been killed in the
Great
> >War events could still have transpired leading to another war and the
need
> >for Roman numerals to differentiate them.
>
> There was no other party in the Weimar Republic, even the Communists,
> who were as openly and avoidly dedicated to Hitlerian principles of
> racial supremacy, internal repression and external aggression. The
> Nazi party existed only as a vehicle for Hitler to achieve and
> maintain power. It was totally and completely subordinated to the
> whim of the leader. No other right-wing nationalist party had
> anything like the adherence to outright dictatorship with irrational,
> visionary goals.

Tweeks of old are much like tweeks of today.

> Take a look at the competitors: von Papen and Schleisser? Both of
> them were unpleasantly reactionary right-wingers, but even the latter,
> basically a junta general, did not have the ambitions Hitler had. I
> think it's quite tenable to assume that Weimar democracy might not
> have survived the depression, but the personal influence of Hitler on
> the road to war and the decision to wage war was absolutely critical.

Adolph brought neo-Darwinism to its peak.

[Regnirps]

(The Revolution Will Not Be Televised) wrote:

<<There was no other party in the Weimar Republic, even the Communists,
who were as openly and avoidly dedicated to Hitlerian principles of
racial supremacy, internal repression and external aggression. The
Nazi party existed only as a vehicle for Hitler to achieve and
maintain power. It was totally and completely subordinated to the
whim of the leader. No other right-wing nationalist party had
anything like the adherence to outright dictatorship with irrational,
visionary goals.

Take a look at the competitors: von Papen and Schleisser? Both of
them were unpleasantly reactionary right-wingers, but even the latter,
basically a junta general, did not have the ambitions Hitler had. I
think it's quite tenable to assume that Weimar democracy might not
have survived the depression, but the personal influence of Hitler on
the road to war and the decision to wage war was absolutely critical. >>

I think a god argument can be made that the philosophy behind the neo-pagan
revivial that began in the 1890's would have lead inevitably to more war.
Already in WWI (The Great War for Civilization) the swastica was the most
common good luck tallisman among German troops. The pieces were all falling
into place. If not Hittler, then another. If it had come a few years later,
with the pace of German science, the results could have been somewhat
different.

-- Charlie Springer

[The Revolution Will Not Be Televised]

On 24 Oct 2003 04:09:42 GMT, (Regnirps) wrote:

>Take a look at the competitors: von Papen and Schleisser? Both of
>them were unpleasantly reactionary right-wingers, but even the latter,
>basically a junta general, did not have the ambitions Hitler had. I
>think it's quite tenable to assume that Weimar democracy might not
>have survived the depression, but the personal influence of Hitler on
>the road to war and the decision to wage war was absolutely critical. >>
>
>I think a god argument can be made that the philosophy behind the neo-pagan
>revivial that began in the 1890's would have lead inevitably to more war.
>Already in WWI (The Great War for Civilization) the swastica was the most
>common good luck tallisman among German troops. The pieces were all falling
>into place. If not Hittler, then another. If it had come a few years later,
>with the pace of German science, the results could have been somewhat
>different.

Nonetheless, the strongest centre party was catholic and produced
chancellors like Brunning and the SPD remained the largest single
party for years. Hitler was able to exploit deep-seated, even
atavistic German prejudices, but his ultimate success required brutal
repression and connivance with more traditional reactionary powers who
realised their mistake too late. Look at what happened to von Papen
when he challenged the Nazi policy of repression when it moved beyond
godless communists, and how Ludendorf, who should have been an obvious
figurehead for right-wing fanatics, had come realise the true dangers
involved with Hitler by the time he became chancellor.

There might possibly have been a war, but it came much sooner and on a
much wider scale than I can possibly believe the traditional
reactionaries wanted. That came down to Hitler's personal influence.

Art Kramer is dead right about the main responsibility for this one.
We know that with Hitler at the helm, war and genocide were
inevitable. Whatever fantasies the right had about regaining national
honour, revening Versailles, expanding back into lost territories in
the East, their main motivation for aligning with Hitler was to find
the mass support they lacked to crush domestic enemies : the
socialists and social democrats and the democratic institutions that
allowed their mass support to obstruct reactionary hopes. If Weimar
had survived, there probably would not have been a war.

Gavin Bailey

--

"Will Boogie Down For Food".- Sign held by Disco Stu outside the unemployment office.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: German historian provokes row over war photos
>From: (The Revolution Will Not Be Televised)
>Date: 10/24/03 1:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time

>Art Kramer is dead right about the main responsibility for this one.
>We know that with Hitler at the helm, war and genocide were
>inevitable. Whatever fantasies the right had about regaining national
>honour, revening Versailles, expanding back into lost territories in
>the East, their main motivation for aligning with Hitler was to find
>the mass support they lacked to crush domestic enemies : the
>socialists and social democrats and the democratic institutions that
>allowed their mass support to obstruct reactionary hopes. If Weimar
>had survived, there probably would not have been a war.
>
>Gavin Bailey
>
Weimar was the great hope to take Germany out of its ancient warlike mode to a
modern Democracy. When it failed, hope was lost.

..
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Alan Minyard]

On 24 Oct 2003 04:09:42 GMT, (Regnirps) wrote:

(The Revolution Will Not Be Televised) wrote:
>
><<There was no other party in the Weimar Republic, even the Communists,
>who were as openly and avoidly dedicated to Hitlerian principles of
>racial supremacy, internal repression and external aggression. The
>Nazi party existed only as a vehicle for Hitler to achieve and
>maintain power. It was totally and completely subordinated to the
>whim of the leader. No other right-wing nationalist party had
>anything like the adherence to outright dictatorship with irrational,
>visionary goals.
>
>Take a look at the competitors: von Papen and Schleisser? Both of
>them were unpleasantly reactionary right-wingers, but even the latter,
>basically a junta general, did not have the ambitions Hitler had. I
>think it's quite tenable to assume that Weimar democracy might not
>have survived the depression, but the personal influence of Hitler on
>the road to war and the decision to wage war was absolutely critical. >>
>
>I think a god argument can be made that the philosophy behind the neo-pagan
>revivial that began in the 1890's would have lead inevitably to more war.
>Already in WWI (The Great War for Civilization) the swastica was the most
>common good luck tallisman among German troops. The pieces were all falling
>into place. If not Hittler, then another. If it had come a few years later,
>with the pace of German science, the results could have been somewhat
>different.
>
>-- Charlie Springer

Yes, we would have nuked them.

Al Minyard