Meting with a Lancaster rear gunner

[Dave Eadsforth]

Greetings all,

I was lucky enough to meet an ex-RAF rear gunner last week. Couldn't
chat for long, but he shared a few memories with me, so I thought I'd
pass them on.

I suppose he was either lucky or skilled. He was a rear gunner between
1940 and 1946, first Wellingtons, then Lancs, and although he never
claimed for a kill he must have scared off a few fighters simply to have
survived. Some of what he had to say is undoubtedly well known, but a
couple of bits were new to me.

First the electrically heated suit. Rarely worked properly, and when it
did it was known to provide the occasional electrical shock. So, he
spent many operations feeling quite cold. Also, the gauntlets were so
cumbersome he preferred to take them off if he wanted to do anything
fiddly, and that was when his skin would stick to any metal fittings it
touched. (A few hours at 20,000 feet must qualify for a cold soak.)

When you look at a photo of a Lanc rear turret you can see a couple of
chutes, one either side, to allow the spent cases to exit the turret.
His experience was that a lot of them ended up on the floor of the
turret, and if he had to stand up to do anything his feet would fly out
from under him.

At the end of the operation the gunners had to remove their guns from
the turrets and take them back to the armoury and clean them. This they
did with loving care as they wanted the guns to work properly the next
night...

Finally, I had wondered whether the sounds in the rear turret of a Lanc
would include the hammering of the gun breeches (re. recording of WVT's
flight on a bomber raid), but he put that one to rest - the business end
of the Brownings drowned out anything else.

What did your pair of Brownings on the front turret sound like, Gord?

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

[[email protected]]

Dave Eadsforth > wrote:

>
>Finally, I had wondered whether the sounds in the rear turret of a Lanc
>would include the hammering of the gun breeches (re. recording of WVT's
>flight on a bomber raid), but he put that one to rest - the business end
>of the Brownings drowned out anything else.
>
>What did your pair of Brownings on the front turret sound like, Gord?
>
>Cheers,
>
>Dave

Surprisingly quiet Dave, mind you the ambient noise level was
pretty high anyway. I was pretty nervous the first time that I
fired them being very familiar with a .303 rifle. My dad owned a
..303 Ross that I had put a slew of ammo through while growing up.

Then a helluva lot more after I started flying and stealing
hundreds of belted .303 rounds (oops - don't tell please).

What was very noticeable was the smell of cordite, very strong,
as one would expect from the front turret. We always had 1000
rounds to fire on each 'bombing and gunnery' ops.

Was lots of fun firing tracer from Dad's rifle at a big open
hillside on his farm.
--

-Gord.

[Dave Eadsforth]

In article >, Gord Beaman
<?@?.?> writes
>Dave Eadsforth > wrote:
>
>>
>>Finally, I had wondered whether the sounds in the rear turret of a Lanc
>>would include the hammering of the gun breeches (re. recording of WVT's
>>flight on a bomber raid), but he put that one to rest - the business end
>>of the Brownings drowned out anything else.
>>
>>What did your pair of Brownings on the front turret sound like, Gord?
>>
>>Cheers,
>>
>>Dave
>
>Surprisingly quiet Dave, mind you the ambient noise level was
>pretty high anyway.

I guess it was - since you would have had a pair of Merlins in each ear,
something the rear gunner was spared.

> I was pretty nervous the first time that I
>fired them being very familiar with a .303 rifle. My dad owned a
>.303 Ross that I had put a slew of ammo through while growing up.
>
Betcha kept that straight-pull bolt clean ;-)

>Then a helluva lot more after I started flying and stealing
>hundreds of belted .303 rounds (oops - don't tell please).
>
Your secret is safe with me...

>What was very noticeable was the smell of cordite, very strong,
>as one would expect from the front turret. We always had 1000
>rounds to fire on each 'bombing and gunnery' ops.
>
One thing I forgot to mention in my original note was that the rear
gunner knew the flak was getting close when he could smell the fumes
from the exploding shells - despite wearing his oxygen mask. I wondered
how that could happen, but concluded that the 'G' masks (1943) onwards
were the first RAF masks to have exhalation vents, and some external
fumes could well have crept in that way.

>Was lots of fun firing tracer from Dad's rifle at a big open
>hillside on his farm.
>--
I'll bet - but was the trace immediate rather than delayed? If so, lots
of boiling water down the barrel afterwards!
>
>-Gord.

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

[ArtKramr]

>ubject: Re: Meting with a Lancaster rear gunner
>From: Dave Eadsforth

>One thing I forgot to mention in my original note was that the rear
>gunner knew the flak was getting close when he could smell the fumes
>from the exploding shells - despite wearing his oxygen mask. I wondered

You know the flak is getting close when instead of just seeing a black puff
you can see the fiery red hot core as the shell bursts. Then it is
approaching fatal range. See FLAK on my website. We were in the middle of an
88 pattern.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Dave Eadsforth]

In article >, ArtKramr
> writes
>>ubject: Re: Meting with a Lancaster rear gunner
>>From: Dave Eadsforth
>
>>One thing I forgot to mention in my original note was that the rear
>>gunner knew the flak was getting close when he could smell the fumes
>>from the exploding shells - despite wearing his oxygen mask. I wondered
>
>You know the flak is getting close when instead of just seeing a black puff
>you can see the fiery red hot core as the shell bursts. Then it is
>approaching fatal range. See FLAK on my website. We were in the middle of an
>88 pattern.
>
>Arthur Kramer

Hi Art,

I just look a fresh look at your photograph and I was reminded of the
statistics for the 88mm shell. Blast lethal up to 30 yards and
fragments lethal up to 200 yards, I'm told. I guess that as a
bombardier you had a front seat - and no popcorn.

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Meting with a Lancaster rear gunner
>From: Dave Eadsforth
>Date: 11/16/03 12:09 AM Pac

>Hi Art,
>
>I just look a fresh look at your photograph and I was reminded of the
>statistics for the 88mm shell. Blast lethal up to 30 yards and
>fragments lethal up to 200 yards, I'm told. I guess that as a
>bombardier you had a front seat - and no popcorn.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Dave
>
>--
>Dave Eadsforth


Hi Dave,

If you have to watch a war the nose of a bomber is a great place from which to
watch. (grin) Those black puffs were no longer dangerous.The shrapnell falls
away immediately and you can fly right through those black puffs with impunity.
Funny feeing though.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Peter Stickney]

In article >,
Dave Eadsforth > writes:
>>What was very noticeable was the smell of cordite, very strong,
>>as one would expect from the front turret. We always had 1000
>>rounds to fire on each 'bombing and gunnery' ops.
>>
> One thing I forgot to mention in my original note was that the rear
> gunner knew the flak was getting close when he could smell the fumes
> from the exploding shells - despite wearing his oxygen mask. I wondered
> how that could happen, but concluded that the 'G' masks (1943) onwards
> were the first RAF masks to have exhalation vents, and some external
> fumes could well have crept in that way.

Not so much a question of the outlet vents, which, like thos of gas
masks, aren't going to allow any outside air in, but of teh Oxygen
System itself. During World War 2, everybody was using "Diluter" or
"Economiser" (If you're a Brit) Oxygen systems, Thse used a
regulator/mixer with an aneroid widget inside to mix a measured amount
of oxygen with outside air. (Low altitude = less, High Altitude =
more, until above, say, 30,000' it's pure Oxygen) This was done to
cut down on the rate of Oxygen consumption, whigch, for a multi-crewed
airplane, like a Heavy Bomber, wouldn't otherwise be able to carry
enough Oxygen for a typical mission. THe Germans an, since about 1941
or so, the U.S., went a bit further, and developed "Diluter Demand"
systems, which only allowed Oxygen flow while the crewman was
inhaling. (That's what the white blinker on the Oxygen regulator
console of a U.S> aircraft is tied to). This cut consumption back
even further.

So, if you're flying through a smoke cloud from a fire, or a flak
burst, or the gun gas coming from your muzzles, you'd smell it.
(Never experienced that myself - But I do know that if you're flying
over South Dakota you can smell the cows.)

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

[[email protected]]

(Peter Stickney) wrote:

>
>So, if you're flying through a smoke cloud from a fire, or a flak
>burst, or the gun gas coming from your muzzles, you'd smell it.
>(Never experienced that myself - But I do know that if you're flying
>over South Dakota you can smell the cows.)

Quite true about the 'Diluter/demand' system. There's also a
selector on that valve which selects between diluter and 100%. We
usually used the 100% pos'n to 'clear the head' on those early
morning blues kind of days...t'was likely as not that the
benefits of this were 'all in yer head' too.

But...whatever turned yer crank I guess.
--

-Gord.

[Dave Eadsforth]

In article >, Peter Stickney
> writes
>In article >,
> Dave Eadsforth > writes:
>>>What was very noticeable was the smell of cordite, very strong,
>>>as one would expect from the front turret. We always had 1000
>>>rounds to fire on each 'bombing and gunnery' ops.
>>>
>> One thing I forgot to mention in my original note was that the rear
>> gunner knew the flak was getting close when he could smell the fumes
>> from the exploding shells - despite wearing his oxygen mask. I wondered
>> how that could happen, but concluded that the 'G' masks (1943) onwards
>> were the first RAF masks to have exhalation vents, and some external
>> fumes could well have crept in that way.
>
>Not so much a question of the outlet vents, which, like thos of gas
>masks, aren't going to allow any outside air in, but of teh Oxygen
>System itself. During World War 2, everybody was using "Diluter" or
>"Economiser" (If you're a Brit) Oxygen systems, Thse used a
>regulator/mixer with an aneroid widget inside to mix a measured amount
>of oxygen with outside air. (Low altitude = less, High Altitude =
>more, until above, say, 30,000' it's pure Oxygen) This was done to
>cut down on the rate of Oxygen consumption, whigch, for a multi-crewed
>airplane, like a Heavy Bomber, wouldn't otherwise be able to carry
>enough Oxygen for a typical mission. THe Germans an, since about 1941
>or so, the U.S., went a bit further, and developed "Diluter Demand"
>systems, which only allowed Oxygen flow while the crewman was
>inhaling. (That's what the white blinker on the Oxygen regulator
>console of a U.S> aircraft is tied to). This cut consumption back
>even further.
>
>So, if you're flying through a smoke cloud from a fire, or a flak
>burst, or the gun gas coming from your muzzles, you'd smell it.
>(Never experienced that myself - But I do know that if you're flying
>over South Dakota you can smell the cows.)
>
Thanks for that, Peter; I had heard of the economiser but had no
knowledge of how it worked. I did know that the early oxygen systems
were not force feed, which led to hypoxia (or anoxia - whichever term
you like best) in photo-reconnaissance pilots and less fit crewmen, but
no idea of the dilution. No wonder...

Re. cows, has not the methane from the world's cattle been identified as
a major contribution to reduction of the ozone layer? Damn good reason
not to be vegetarian - eat more meat...and quicker...God bless Atkins...

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

[John Mullen]

Dave Eadsforth wrote:
> In article >, Peter Stickney
> > writes
>
>>In article >,
>> Dave Eadsforth > writes:
>>
>>>>What was very noticeable was the smell of cordite, very strong,
>>>>as one would expect from the front turret. We always had 1000
>>>>rounds to fire on each 'bombing and gunnery' ops.
>>>>
>>>
>>>One thing I forgot to mention in my original note was that the rear
>>>gunner knew the flak was getting close when he could smell the fumes
>>>from the exploding shells - despite wearing his oxygen mask. I wondered
>>>how that could happen, but concluded that the 'G' masks (1943) onwards
>>>were the first RAF masks to have exhalation vents, and some external
>>>fumes could well have crept in that way.
>>
>>Not so much a question of the outlet vents, which, like thos of gas
>>masks, aren't going to allow any outside air in, but of teh Oxygen
>>System itself. During World War 2, everybody was using "Diluter" or
>>"Economiser" (If you're a Brit) Oxygen systems, Thse used a
>>regulator/mixer with an aneroid widget inside to mix a measured amount
>>of oxygen with outside air. (Low altitude = less, High Altitude =
>>more, until above, say, 30,000' it's pure Oxygen) This was done to
>>cut down on the rate of Oxygen consumption, whigch, for a multi-crewed
>>airplane, like a Heavy Bomber, wouldn't otherwise be able to carry
>>enough Oxygen for a typical mission. THe Germans an, since about 1941
>>or so, the U.S., went a bit further, and developed "Diluter Demand"
>>systems, which only allowed Oxygen flow while the crewman was
>>inhaling. (That's what the white blinker on the Oxygen regulator
>>console of a U.S> aircraft is tied to). This cut consumption back
>>even further.
>>
>>So, if you're flying through a smoke cloud from a fire, or a flak
>>burst, or the gun gas coming from your muzzles, you'd smell it.
>>(Never experienced that myself - But I do know that if you're flying
>>over South Dakota you can smell the cows.)
>>
>
> Thanks for that, Peter; I had heard of the economiser but had no
> knowledge of how it worked. I did know that the early oxygen systems
> were not force feed, which led to hypoxia (or anoxia - whichever term
> you like best) in photo-reconnaissance pilots and less fit crewmen, but
> no idea of the dilution. No wonder...
>
> Re. cows, has not the methane from the world's cattle been identified as
> a major contribution to reduction of the ozone layer?

Greenhouse effect.

>Damn good reason
> not to be vegetarian - eat more meat...and quicker...God bless Atkins...

John

[Harry Andreas]

In article >, Dave Eadsforth
> wrote:

> Re. cows, has not the methane from the world's cattle been identified as
> a major contribution to reduction of the ozone layer? Damn good reason
> not to be vegetarian - eat more meat...and quicker...God bless Atkins...

Not ozone depletion, global warming.

I love animals, most of them are quite tasty,

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

[Peter Stickney]

In article >,
Dave Eadsforth > writes:
<Snip - breif description of Diluter-type O2 systems >

>>So, if you're flying through a smoke cloud from a fire, or a flak
>>burst, or the gun gas coming from your muzzles, you'd smell it.
>>(Never experienced that myself - But I do know that if you're flying
>>over South Dakota you can smell the cows.)
>>
> Thanks for that, Peter; I had heard of the economiser but had no
> knowledge of how it worked. I did know that the early oxygen systems
> were not force feed, which led to hypoxia (or anoxia - whichever term
> you like best) in photo-reconnaissance pilots and less fit crewmen, but
> no idea of the dilution. No wonder...

Pressure Oxygen systems aren't required until you get above about
35,000-40,000 ' (11,000 -13,000m) or so. Below that height, there's
enough pressure to force the air/Oxygen mixture through the wall of
the Aveolae in the lungs. Above that heoght, even pure O2 won't make
it into the bloodstream without some help. So, positive pressure
systems wre developed, these force O2 into the mask at higher than
ambient pressures, forcing the gas into the lungs. These systems
require masks that make a positive airtight seal to your face, and
breathing with them takes a bit of getting used to. Above 50,000',
you begin to need full-body pressurization, either from a pressure
cabin or a pressure suit.

> Re. cows, has not the methane from the world's cattle been identified as
> a major contribution to reduction of the ozone layer? Damn good reason
> not to be vegetarian - eat more meat...and quicker...God bless Atkins...

The Greenhouse effect, mostly. Despite the jibing the Pres. Reagan
took, another big contributer is Coniferous Trees. (Pines, Spruce,
Cedar, etc.) Their pitch is high in volatile hydrocarbons, such as
Furaline (Turpentine). This will basically boil off on warm days, and
enter the atmosphere. That's how the Smoky Mountains got their name.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

[Dave Eadsforth]

In article >, Peter Stickney
> writes
>In article >,
> Dave Eadsforth > writes:
><Snip - breif description of Diluter-type O2 systems >
>
>>>So, if you're flying through a smoke cloud from a fire, or a flak
>>>burst, or the gun gas coming from your muzzles, you'd smell it.
>>>(Never experienced that myself - But I do know that if you're flying
>>>over South Dakota you can smell the cows.)
>>>
>> Thanks for that, Peter; I had heard of the economiser but had no
>> knowledge of how it worked. I did know that the early oxygen systems
>> were not force feed, which led to hypoxia (or anoxia - whichever term
>> you like best) in photo-reconnaissance pilots and less fit crewmen, but
>> no idea of the dilution. No wonder...
>
>Pressure Oxygen systems aren't required until you get above about
>35,000-40,000 ' (11,000 -13,000m) or so. Below that height, there's
>enough pressure to force the air/Oxygen mixture through the wall of
>the Aveolae in the lungs. Above that heoght, even pure O2 won't make
>it into the bloodstream without some help.

Looks like Hilary and Tensing were lucky that Mount Everest was not 5000
feet higher

> So, positive pressure
>systems wre developed, these force O2 into the mask at higher than
>ambient pressures, forcing the gas into the lungs. These systems
>require masks that make a positive airtight seal to your face, and
>breathing with them takes a bit of getting used to.

I suppose the act of breathing through such a system might feel similar
to the pressure feed from my SCUBA regulator?

> Above 50,000',
>you begin to need full-body pressurization, either from a pressure
>cabin or a pressure suit.
>
>> Re. cows, has not the methane from the world's cattle been identified as
>> a major contribution to reduction of the ozone layer? Damn good reason
>> not to be vegetarian - eat more meat...and quicker...God bless Atkins...
>
>The Greenhouse effect, mostly. Despite the jibing the Pres. Reagan
>took, another big contributer is Coniferous Trees. (Pines, Spruce,
>Cedar, etc.) Their pitch is high in volatile hydrocarbons, such as
>Furaline (Turpentine). This will basically boil off on warm days, and
>enter the atmosphere. That's how the Smoky Mountains got their name.

Thank you - yet another factlet that could win me a beer!

I the UK we have an increasing number of furnishing stores being opened
by the IKEA corporation of Sweden. If pine trees are also contributing
to the Greenhouse Effect by pumping gas into the atmosphere then maybe
they should change their advertising: 'Pine furniture made from non-
renewable resources! We are doing our bit to save the planet by wiping
out all those dangerous conifers!'

Norway could also get in on the act. 'We are only resuming whaling to
save the world's plankton...'

>
Nothing succeeds like a bit of imaginative PR.

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth