Shot at/Shot back

[Bob McKellar]

We keep bringing up presidents/candidates getting shot at (
"We" includes me, I confess ). But today a related issue
popped into my head.

After all the discussion of Kerry's VN history, I wondered
if we have had any other recent ( last 75 years or so )
presidents or major contenders who have killed somebody in a
personal and particular way. We have had bomb droppers (
GHWB, McGovern ) and Truman's artillery and Ford's AA, but
little close range infantry type experience in our leaders
since Teddy R.

Bob Kerrey would certainly qualify, but he didn't make it
too far in his presidential bid. Bob Dole was in serious
combat, but I don't know if his shooting experience was
aimed or "to whom it may concern".

Maybe I have forgotten something ( not an unusual event )
and maybe it is a silly thing to think about. However, I
think the experience of picking a particular human being and
blowing him away would have quite an effect on somebody.

Bob McKellar

Note due to the nature of news groups: This post is not
intended to disparage or criticize any person or group. I'm
just curious.

[Steven James Forsberg]

: Bob Kerrey would certainly qualify, but he didn't make it
: too far in his presidential bid. Bob Dole was in serious
: combat, but I don't know if his shooting experience was
: aimed or "to whom it may concern".

Well, according to SLA Marshall there is a real question as to
how much shooting in WWII was actually "aimed" at all. ;-)
More seriously, Dole was a 2lt on the front lines with the
10th Mountain Division (presumably infantry branch) when he was wounded
trying to pull his wounded radioman to safety. IIRC from a speech he
gave, he almost died three times (on the battlefield, and two different
times after surgeries stateside). Got a Bronze Star and 2 Purple Hearts
for his efforts.
ISTR he once quipped about how he got assigned to the 10th Mountain
Division -- "I'm from Kansas, and this was the army..."

regards,
-----------------------------------------------------

[Bob McKellar]

Steven James Forsberg wrote:

> : Bob Kerrey would certainly qualify, but he didn't make it
> : too far in his presidential bid. Bob Dole was in serious
> : combat, but I don't know if his shooting experience was
> : aimed or "to whom it may concern".
>
> Well, according to SLA Marshall there is a real question as to
> how much shooting in WWII was actually "aimed" at all. ;-)

That has been my general impression, very little aiming going on.

>
> More seriously, Dole was a 2lt on the front lines with the
> 10th Mountain Division (presumably infantry branch) when he was wounded
> trying to pull his wounded radioman to safety. IIRC from a speech he
> gave, he almost died three times (on the battlefield, and two different
> times after surgeries stateside). Got a Bronze Star and 2 Purple Hearts
> for his efforts.
> ISTR he once quipped about how he got assigned to the 10th Mountain
> Division -- "I'm from Kansas, and this was the army..."
>

A distinguished and witty gentlemen, without a doubt.

Bob McKellar

[Tex Houston]

"Bob McKellar" > wrote in message
...
>
> We keep bringing up presidents/candidates getting shot at (
> "We" includes me, I confess ). But today a related issue
> popped into my head.
> <snipped>
> Maybe I have forgotten something ( not an unusual event )
> and maybe it is a silly thing to think about. However, I
> think the experience of picking a particular human being and
> blowing him away would have quite an effect on somebody.
>
> Bob McKellar

I'll submit a name who came so close. Tied in vote total with Thomas
Jefferson he became vice president by decision of the House of Representives
but is probably most known for killing Alexander Hamilton in a duel. He
also served in the Revolutionary War.

Regards,

Tex houston

[Michael P. Reed]

In message >, "Tex Houston" wrote:

> I'll submit a name who came so close. Tied in vote total with Thomas
> Jefferson he became vice president by decision of the House of Representives
> but is probably most known for killing Alexander Hamilton in a duel. He
> also served in the Revolutionary War.

Yes, but Burr saw very little combat. The only action I can think he was in
was an attack on some British pickets during Henry Clinton's diversion into New
Jersey in September of 1777. Other than that, he served mostly as a staff
officer (though still officially LTC of Malcolm's Additional Regiment until it
was amalgamated with Grayson's [?] Additional. Of course, there were duels.
Jackson also fought duels.

--
Regards,

Michael P. Reed

[Tarver Engineering]

"Tex Houston" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bob McKellar" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > We keep bringing up presidents/candidates getting shot at (
> > "We" includes me, I confess ). But today a related issue
> > popped into my head.
> > <snipped>
> > Maybe I have forgotten something ( not an unusual event )
> > and maybe it is a silly thing to think about. However, I
> > think the experience of picking a particular human being and
> > blowing him away would have quite an effect on somebody.

> I'll submit a name who came so close. Tied in vote total with Thomas
> Jefferson he became vice president by decision of the House of
Representives
> but is probably most known for killing Alexander Hamilton in a duel. He
> also served in the Revolutionary War.

Andrew Jackson commanded the Army of Tennessee at New Orleans in 1815 and
was censured during his first term for sport hunting bipeds. Persuit was
the specialty of the Army of Tennessee and he had to keep his dogs sharp.

[raymond o'hara]

"Michael P. Reed" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, "Tex Houston" wrote:
>
> > I'll submit a name who came so close. Tied in vote total with Thomas
> > Jefferson he became vice president by decision of the House of
Representives
> > but is probably most known for killing Alexander Hamilton in a duel. He
> > also served in the Revolutionary War.
>
> Yes, but Burr saw very little combat. The only action I can think he was
in
> was an attack on some British pickets during Henry Clinton's diversion
into New
> Jersey in September of 1777. Other than that, he served mostly as a staff
> officer (though still officially LTC of Malcolm's Additional Regiment
until it
> was amalgamated with Grayson's [?] Additional. Of course, there were
duels.
> Jackson also fought duels.
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Michael P. Reed
>

burr was with arnold on the march to quebec and he was at monmouth . the
battles in the rev were so small that everybody was near the front .

[Chris Mark]

>From: Bob McKellar bob@coastco

>I wondered
>if we have had any other recent ( last 75 years or so )
>presidents or major contenders who have killed somebody in a
>personal and particular way.

Henry Kissinger's name was bandied about as a possible presidential candidate
at one time (and as with Arnold Swartzenegger, his fans hoped a constitutional
amendment would make it possible). During WW2, he served as a rifleman with
the 84th Infantry Division and fought at the Battle of the Bulge, where he had
plenty of opportunities to be shot at and shoot back. Seeing that he was Jewish
and his family fled Germany in 1938, he took killing Nazis personally.
A brief history of the 84th ID's exploits during the war can be found here:

http://www.lonesentry.com/gi_stories_booklets/84thinfantry/


Chris Mark

[Fred J. McCall]

"Tex Houston" > wrote:

:"Bob McKellar" > wrote in message
...
:>
:> We keep bringing up presidents/candidates getting shot at (
:> "We" includes me, I confess ). But today a related issue
:> popped into my head.
:> <snipped>
:> Maybe I have forgotten something ( not an unusual event )
:> and maybe it is a silly thing to think about. However, I
:> think the experience of picking a particular human being and
:> blowing him away would have quite an effect on somebody.
:
:I'll submit a name who came so close. Tied in vote total with Thomas
:Jefferson he became vice president by decision of the House of Representives
:but is probably most known for killing Alexander Hamilton in a duel. He
:also served in the Revolutionary War.

Uh, wasn't that a bit longer than 75 years ago?

[George Z. Bush]

"Tex Houston" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bob McKellar" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > We keep bringing up presidents/candidates getting shot at (
> > "We" includes me, I confess ). But today a related issue
> > popped into my head.
> > <snipped>
> > Maybe I have forgotten something ( not an unusual event )
> > and maybe it is a silly thing to think about. However, I
> > think the experience of picking a particular human being and
> > blowing him away would have quite an effect on somebody.
> >
> > Bob McKellar
>
> I'll submit a name who came so close. Tied in vote total with Thomas
> Jefferson he became vice president by decision of the House of Representives
> but is probably most known for killing Alexander Hamilton in a duel. He
> also served in the Revolutionary War.

Aaron Burr?

George Z.

[Kevin Brooks]

"Steven James Forsberg" > wrote in message
...
>
> : Bob Kerrey would certainly qualify, but he didn't make it
> : too far in his presidential bid. Bob Dole was in serious
> : combat, but I don't know if his shooting experience was
> : aimed or "to whom it may concern".
>
> Well, according to SLA Marshall there is a real question as to
> how much shooting in WWII was actually "aimed" at all. ;-)

Double check that source. A few years ago the validity, if not the
integrity, of Marshall's "research" was called into serious question. His
work had been accepted as gospel for decades, but his methodology and
conclusions have since been the subject of reinvestigation. Some have even
gone so far as to claim he pulled his supporting "statistics" out of thin
air. See:

http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/03autumn/chambers.pdf

http://www.ku.edu/carrie/archives/milhst-l/19990701.mil/msg00065.html


> More seriously, Dole was a 2lt on the front lines with the
> 10th Mountain Division (presumably infantry branch) when he was wounded
> trying to pull his wounded radioman to safety. IIRC from a speech he
> gave, he almost died three times (on the battlefield, and two different
> times after surgeries stateside). Got a Bronze Star and 2 Purple Hearts
> for his efforts.
> ISTR he once quipped about how he got assigned to the 10th Mountain
> Division -- "I'm from Kansas, and this was the army..."

IIRC Dole spent a year or more under military hospital care while recovering
from his wounds.

Brooks

>
> regards,
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

[Kevin Brooks]

"Bob McKellar" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Steven James Forsberg wrote:
>
> > : Bob Kerrey would certainly qualify, but he didn't make it
> > : too far in his presidential bid. Bob Dole was in serious
> > : combat, but I don't know if his shooting experience was
> > : aimed or "to whom it may concern".
> >
> > Well, according to SLA Marshall there is a real question as to
> > how much shooting in WWII was actually "aimed" at all. ;-)
>
> That has been my general impression, very little aiming going on.

Don't buy into Marshall too quickly; his conclusions, and the manner in
which he reached them, have since been brought into serious question.

Brooks

>
> >
> > More seriously, Dole was a 2lt on the front lines with the
> > 10th Mountain Division (presumably infantry branch) when he was wounded
> > trying to pull his wounded radioman to safety. IIRC from a speech he
> > gave, he almost died three times (on the battlefield, and two different
> > times after surgeries stateside). Got a Bronze Star and 2 Purple Hearts
> > for his efforts.
> > ISTR he once quipped about how he got assigned to the 10th
Mountain
> > Division -- "I'm from Kansas, and this was the army..."
> >
>
> A distinguished and witty gentlemen, without a doubt.
>
> Bob McKellar
>

[Jack Linthicum]

Steven James Forsberg > wrote in message >...
> : Bob Kerrey would certainly qualify, but he didn't make it
> : too far in his presidential bid. Bob Dole was in serious
> : combat, but I don't know if his shooting experience was
> : aimed or "to whom it may concern".
>
> Well, according to SLA Marshall there is a real question as to
> how much shooting in WWII was actually "aimed" at all. ;-)
> More seriously, Dole was a 2lt on the front lines with the
> 10th Mountain Division (presumably infantry branch) when he was wounded
> trying to pull his wounded radioman to safety. IIRC from a speech he
> gave, he almost died three times (on the battlefield, and two different
> times after surgeries stateside). Got a Bronze Star and 2 Purple Hearts
> for his efforts.
> ISTR he once quipped about how he got assigned to the 10th Mountain
> Division -- "I'm from Kansas, and this was the army..."
>

My service from Google comes and goes, that is I will have 6 postings
one minute and 3 the next on the same topic. Anyway, here is the
anti-Marshall work:

http://www.warchronicle.com/us/combat_historians_wwii/marshallfire.htm

I had heard similar tales as Marshall's repeated about the Civil War,
ie load after load in a muzzle-loader and no discharge. Not hard to
imagine but obviously not documented.

[Jack Linthicum]

Steven James Forsberg > wrote in message >...
> : Bob Kerrey would certainly qualify, but he didn't make it
> : too far in his presidential bid. Bob Dole was in serious
> : combat, but I don't know if his shooting experience was
> : aimed or "to whom it may concern".
>
> Well, according to SLA Marshall there is a real question as to
> how much shooting in WWII was actually "aimed" at all. ;-)
> More seriously, Dole was a 2lt on the front lines with the
> 10th Mountain Division (presumably infantry branch) when he was wounded
> trying to pull his wounded radioman to safety. IIRC from a speech he
> gave, he almost died three times (on the battlefield, and two different
> times after surgeries stateside). Got a Bronze Star and 2 Purple Hearts
> for his efforts.
> ISTR he once quipped about how he got assigned to the 10th Mountain
> Division -- "I'm from Kansas, and this was the army..."
>

add: http://www-cgsc.army.mil/milrev/english/JanFeb00/jordan.asp

The Army way of saying Marshall was incorrect, 'new data' and
Marshall's formula was lost with his death.

[Joe Osman]

Chris Mark wrote:
>>From: Bob McKellar bob@coastco
>
>
>>I wondered
>>if we have had any other recent ( last 75 years or so )
>>presidents or major contenders who have killed somebody in a
>>personal and particular way.
>
>
> Henry Kissinger's name was bandied about as a possible presidential candidate
> at one time (and as with Arnold Swartzenegger, his fans hoped a constitutional
> amendment would make it possible). During WW2, he served as a rifleman with
> the 84th Infantry Division and fought at the Battle of the Bulge, where he had
> plenty of opportunities to be shot at and shoot back. Seeing that he was Jewish
> and his family fled Germany in 1938, he took killing Nazis personally.
> A brief history of the 84th ID's exploits during the war can be found here:
>
> http://www.lonesentry.com/gi_stories_booklets/84thinfantry/
>
>
> Chris Mark

I thought that he was in Military Government, there being a story of him
becoming "military mayor" of the town his family was from.

Joe

[Joe Osman]

Bob McKellar wrote:

>
> Steven James Forsberg wrote:
>
>
>>: Bob Kerrey would certainly qualify, but he didn't make it
>>: too far in his presidential bid. Bob Dole was in serious
>>: combat, but I don't know if his shooting experience was
>>: aimed or "to whom it may concern".
>>
>> Well, according to SLA Marshall there is a real question as to
>>how much shooting in WWII was actually "aimed" at all. ;-)
>
>
> That has been my general impression, very little aiming going on.
>
>
>> More seriously, Dole was a 2lt on the front lines with the
>>10th Mountain Division (presumably infantry branch) when he was wounded
>>trying to pull his wounded radioman to safety. IIRC from a speech he
>>gave, he almost died three times (on the battlefield, and two different
>>times after surgeries stateside). Got a Bronze Star and 2 Purple Hearts
>>for his efforts.
>> ISTR he once quipped about how he got assigned to the 10th Mountain
>>Division -- "I'm from Kansas, and this was the army..."
>>
>
>
> A distinguished and witty gentlemen, without a doubt.
>
> Bob McKellar
>

They sent him all casts and bandages on a troop train back to Kansas and
when his family went on the train to get him they found that the rest of
the soldiers had been using him as an ashtray.

Joe

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: (OT) Shot at/Shot back
>From: "George Z. Bush"
>Date: 3/5/04 10:02 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id:

>Tied in vote total with Thomas
>> Jefferson he became vice president by decision of the House of
>Representives
>> but is probably most known for killing Alexander Hamilton in a duel. He

I think he is better known for his part in the landmark Supreme Court case
Marbury V. Madison,(1804) a case which effects our lives to this day.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Ed Rasimus]

On 06 Mar 2004 15:22:27 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

>>Subject: Re: (OT) Shot at/Shot back
>>From: "George Z. Bush"
>
>>Tied in vote total with Thomas
>>> Jefferson he became vice president by decision of the House of
>>Representives
>>> but is probably most known for killing Alexander Hamilton in a duel. He
>
>I think he is better known for his part in the landmark Supreme Court case
>Marbury V. Madison,(1804) a case which effects our lives to this day.
>
>Arthur Kramer

Marbury v Madison?...and Aaron Burr? Nahh.

The players in the case were John Adams (who made the appointment to
Marbury), and John Marshall who should have delivered the appointment.
When Jefferson became president, he directed James Madison (who had
replaced Marshall) to not deliver the pending appointments so he could
reward his own supporters. Marbury sued Madison asking the courts to
issue a writ of mandamus to compel the executive branch to fulfill the
appointment of the previous president.

Marshall, now chief justice of the Supreme Court, took the opportunity
to institute the principal of judicial review, which had not been
spelled out in the Constitution--ruling that the courts could not
mandate the executive to act. That would be a violation of separation
of powers.

With that case, the idea that the Supreme Court could rule on
constitutionality of legislative and judicial acts was established.

But, no Burr involved as far as I know.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: (OT) Shot at/Shot back
>From: Ed Rasimus
>Date: 3/6/04 8:03 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On 06 Mar 2004 15:22:27 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>>Subject: Re: (OT) Shot at/Shot back
>>>From: "George Z. Bush"
>>
>>>Tied in vote total with Thomas
>>>> Jefferson he became vice president by decision of the House of
>>>Representives
>>>> but is probably most known for killing Alexander Hamilton in a duel. He
>>
>>I think he is better known for his part in the landmark Supreme Court case
>>Marbury V. Madison,(1804) a case which effects our lives to this day.
>>
>>Arthur Kramer
>
>Marbury v Madison?...and Aaron Burr? Nahh.
>
>The players in the case were John Adams (who made the appointment to
>Marbury), and John Marshall who should have delivered the appointment.
>When Jefferson became president, he directed James Madison (who had
>replaced Marshall) to not deliver the pending appointments so he could
>reward his own supporters. Marbury sued Madison asking the courts to
>issue a writ of mandamus to compel the executive branch to fulfill the
>appointment of the previous president.
>
>Marshall, now chief justice of the Supreme Court, took the opportunity
>to institute the principal of judicial review, which had not been
>spelled out in the Constitution--ruling that the courts could not
>mandate the executive to act. That would be a violation of separation
>of powers.
>
>With that case, the idea that the Supreme Court could rule on
>constitutionality of legislative and judicial acts was established.
>
>But, no Burr involved as far as I know.
>
>
>Ed Rasimus
>Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
>"When Thunder Rolled"
>Smithsonian Institution Press
>ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Exactly. Burr never involved.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[George Z. Bush]

Joe Osman wrote:
> Chris Mark wrote:
>>> From: Bob McKellar bob@coastco
>>
>>
>>> I wondered
>>> if we have had any other recent ( last 75 years or so )
>>> presidents or major contenders who have killed somebody in a
>>> personal and particular way.
>>
>>
>> Henry Kissinger's name was bandied about as a possible presidential candidate
>> at one time (and as with Arnold Swartzenegger, his fans hoped a
>> constitutional amendment would make it possible). During WW2, he served as
>> a rifleman with the 84th Infantry Division and fought at the Battle of the
>> Bulge, where he had plenty of opportunities to be shot at and shoot back.
>> Seeing that he was Jewish and his family fled Germany in 1938, he took
>> killing Nazis personally.
>> A brief history of the 84th ID's exploits during the war can be found here:
>>
>> http://www.lonesentry.com/gi_stories_booklets/84thinfantry/
>>
>>
>> Chris Mark
>
> I thought that he was in Military Government, there being a story of him
> becoming "military mayor" of the town his family was from.

I extracted the following from one of his biographies that Google pointed me at:

"From 1943 to 1946 Dr. Kissinger served in the U.S. Army Counter-Intelligence
Corps and from 1946 to 1949 was a captain in the Military Intelligence Reserve."

George Z.
>
> Joe

[George Z. Bush]

Joe Osman wrote:
> Bob McKellar wrote:
>
>>> More seriously, Dole was a 2lt on the front lines with the
>>> 10th Mountain Division (presumably infantry branch) when he was wounded
>>> trying to pull his wounded radioman to safety. IIRC from a speech he
>>> gave, he almost died three times (on the battlefield, and two different
>>> times after surgeries stateside). Got a Bronze Star and 2 Purple Hearts
>>> for his efforts.
>>> ISTR he once quipped about how he got assigned to the 10th Mountain
>>> Division -- "I'm from Kansas, and this was the army..."

>> A distinguished and witty gentlemen, without a doubt.
>
> They sent him all casts and bandages on a troop train back to Kansas and
> when his family went on the train to get him they found that the rest of
> the soldiers had been using him as an ashtray.

I guess I misplaced my sense of humor. I may not be a Republican, but we were
in the same convoy going to Italy in December 1944, and he deserves better than
to have jokes made about the wounds he sustained for his nation.

George Z.
>
> Joe

[Chris Mark]

>From: Joe Osman Josph.Osman@veriz

>I thought that he was in Military Government, there being a story of him
>becoming "military mayor" of the town his family was from.

Heinz Kissinger came of age in Nazi Germany, having been born in 1923, the
first child of a Jewish couple in Fürth, Germany. In 1938, the family
immigrated to American and settled in New York City. Kissinger was a student
at City College when he received his draft notice shortly after his nineteenth
birthday and, by February of 1943, he left for Infantry basic at Camp Croft. He
became a naturalized citizen in Spartanburg on March 19, 1943, along with 348
other Camp Croft soldiers, 131 of whom were also Germans. Despite being away
from his family, and outside of a German-Jewish community for the first time in
his life, Kissinger found South Carolina to be more of a "new world" than New
York had ever been, and he wrote that the experience was "exhilarating." He was
said to have been a solitary figure but performed well during basic training
and after completing basic in June 1943, he was sent to nearby Clemson
University where he qualified for the Army Specialized Training Program (ASTP)
and was sent to Lafayette College in Pennsylvania. When the program was
canceled in April of 1944, Kissinger found himself sent, along with 2,800 other
ASTP candidates, to Camp Claiborne, LA to join the 84th Infantry Division.
Assigned to Company G, 335th Infantry Regiment, Kissinger departed for Germany
in November 1944 and, as part of the Ninth Army, quickly pushed into Germany
only to be driven back into Belgium during the Battle of the Bulge. By March,
the company was back in Germany, arriving at Krefled where Kissinger, a PFC
with no security clearance but displaying other obvious qualities, became the
administrator of the city. Shortly afterwards, he was transferred to the
Counter-Intellegence branch, promoted to the rank of Sergeant, and served with
distinction in other important occupational duties. Demobilized in May 1946,
Kissinger worked for a time in Europe as an instructor at the European Command
Counter Intelligence School in Oberhammergau before returning to the US,
entering Harvard University under the G.I. bill.


Chris Mark

[Chris Mark]

For Kissenger's WW2 experiences, two biographies are useful:

"Kissinger, a Biography" by Walter Isaacson, 1992, and Kissinger, Portrait of a
Mind by Stephen R. Graubard, 1973.



Chris Mark

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Shot at/Shot back
>From: (Chris Mark)
>Date: 3/6/04 10:01 AM Pacific Standard Time

>By March,
>the company was back in Germany, arriving at Krefled where Kissinger, a PFC
>with no security clearance but displaying other obvious qualities, became the
>administrator of the city.

And one of those qualities was total fluency in German, rare among US troops..


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Chris Mark]

>From:

>displaying other obvious qualities, became the
>>administrator of the city.
>
>And one of those qualities was total fluency in German, rare among US
>troops..

At an AEI dinner recently, Ben Wattenberg asked Kissinger if, while reigning
with absolute authority over Krefled, including having the unquestioned power
of life and death, whether he was not tempted to mete out violent justice to
local Nazis, not only because he was a German Jew, but because he had just come
through some very hard combat in which many of his comrades died.
Kissinger acknowledged that, since he was operating under the harsh military
directive JCS 1067, not modified and softened until 1947, he certainly could
have done so, especially since its primary author, Harry Dexter White,
suggested that a list of war criminals based on Stalin's list of 50,000 be
prepared and sent to American soldiers in Germany, who could, after verifying
their identity, shoot any of them on sight.
However, Kissinger said he felt it was more important to show the Germans that
their conquerers were better than they, and did not stoop to barbarism. So,
although both the temptation and authority existed, he did not order any
executions or conduct any himself. Considering that Kissinger was 22 years old
at the time, that shows considerable maturity on his part.
White, a very large figure in postwar events, was, of course, later accused of
being a communist spy in cahoots with Stalin, dying "mysteriously" within a few
days of appearing before a congressional hearing into his activities.


Chris Mark

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Shot at/Shot back
>From: (Chris Mark)
>Date: 3/6/04 2:40 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>From:
>
>>displaying other obvious qualities, became the
>>>administrator of the city.
>>
>>And one of those qualities was total fluency in German, rare among US
>>troops..
>
>At an AEI dinner recently, Ben Wattenberg asked Kissinger if, while reigning
>with absolute authority over Krefled, including having the unquestioned power
>of life and death, whether he was not tempted to mete out violent justice to
>local Nazis, not only because he was a German Jew, but because he had just
>come
>through some very hard combat in which many of his comrades died.
>Kissinger acknowledged that, since he was operating under the harsh military
>directive JCS 1067, not modified and softened until 1947, he certainly could
>have done so, especially since its primary author, Harry Dexter White,
>suggested that a list of war criminals based on Stalin's list of 50,000 be
>prepared and sent to American soldiers in Germany, who could, after verifying
>their identity, shoot any of them on sight.
>However, Kissinger said he felt it was more important to show the Germans
>that
>their conquerers were better than they, and did not stoop to barbarism. So,
>although both the temptation and authority existed, he did not order any
>executions or conduct any himself. Considering that Kissinger was 22 years
>old
>at the time, that shows considerable maturity on his part.
>White, a very large figure in postwar events, was, of course, later accused
>of
>being a communist spy in cahoots with Stalin, dying "mysteriously" within a
>few
>days of appearing before a congressional hearing into his activities.
>
>
>Chris Mark


There were certain unfortunate years in our history when everyone was accused
of being a communist spy. (sigh)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Joe Osman]

George Z. Bush wrote:
> Joe Osman wrote:
>
>>Bob McKellar wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> More seriously, Dole was a 2lt on the front lines with the
>>>>10th Mountain Division (presumably infantry branch) when he was wounded
>>>>trying to pull his wounded radioman to safety. IIRC from a speech he
>>>>gave, he almost died three times (on the battlefield, and two different
>>>>times after surgeries stateside). Got a Bronze Star and 2 Purple Hearts
>>>>for his efforts.
>>>> ISTR he once quipped about how he got assigned to the 10th Mountain
>>>>Division -- "I'm from Kansas, and this was the army..."
>
>
>>>A distinguished and witty gentlemen, without a doubt.
>>
>>They sent him all casts and bandages on a troop train back to Kansas and
>>when his family went on the train to get him they found that the rest of
>>the soldiers had been using him as an ashtray.
>
>
> I guess I misplaced my sense of humor. I may not be a Republican, but we were
> in the same convoy going to Italy in December 1944, and he deserves better than
> to have jokes made about the wounds he sustained for his nation.
>
> George Z.
>
>>Joe
>
>
>
Sorry, it wasn't meant to be funny. It's the story he told an
interviewer during his presidential campaign after the interviewer asked
him if his WWII record would be meaningful to the current generation. I
guess his point was that it wasn't meaningful to some of his own
generation. He never asked for any special treatment because he was a
wounded veteran, he just went back to his life as best he could.

Joe

[Michael P. Reed]

In message <fad2c.490588$na.1169191@attbi_s04>, "raymond o'hara" wrote:

> burr was with arnold on the march to quebec

This I had not known, though, according to Boatner, he probably served as a
volunteer.

> and he was at monmouth .

Boatner claims that he commanded a brigade that was in action and that it
suffered a repulse. Interesting, but I remain sceptical. Burr was the LTC of
Malcom's Additional Regiment. Malcom, I do believe was detached (he appeared
to have spent most of his career away from his regiment) and was still in the
Highlands, though I do not know this for certain. The earliest information I
can find on him for 1778 in the Washington Papers is an order in late July
ordering him to take command of Fort Arnold at West Point. This is subsequent
to Monmouth and Washington's redeployment to the Highland's region. It is not
unlikely that Burr continued to command the regiment as he had done (for
certain) the previous winter. Malcom's Regiment was assigned to the Third
Pennsylvania Brigade (late Thomas Conway's) with the 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th
Pennylvania, and Spencer's Additional Regiments. The 6th and 12th Regiments
were without colonels, and Burr was was senior in comparison. The 9th's
Colonel, Richard Butler, was detached to command one of the battalion
detachments of the Advance Corps (and saw quite extenseive action). The LTC of
that detachment was Rudolph Bunner from the 3rd Regiment, who was killed. That
left the 3rd and Spencer's Regiments. Oliver Spencer was definately in command
of his regiment a couple of months later, and Craig was likely present as well
as he was ordered detached (while at camp) only a few days after the battle.
If either both were present, then Burr would not have had command of the Third
Pennsylvania Brigade. The brigade may well have seen some action as it was
attached to Stirling's Left Wing. Alas, it Boatner has missed the boat, so to
speak, on so many other occassions it is difficulty to take any statement by
him without a huge dose of salt.

As an aside, it was Malcom's Regiment (while under Burr) which saw, AFAIK, the
only case of a soldier (in this case a LT) during the war to be courtmartialed
(and "dismissed with infamy) for committing, or attempting to commit, sodomy
(i.e. he tried to play hide the salomi with one of his men).

In an actual on topic reference, a detachment of Malcom's Regiment (sans Burr)
was present in the defense, and fall, of Fort Montgomery which led to the
direct loss of two Continental warships, including one of the newly built
frigates. N.B. that it was impossible for the British squadron to provide
naval gunfire support as the forts (inc. Fort Clinton) were positioned too high
up the bluffs, and the guns could not be elevated sufficiently.

--
Regards,

Michael P. Reed

[George Z. Bush]

Joe Osman wrote:
> George Z. Bush wrote:
>> Joe Osman wrote:
>>
>>> Bob McKellar wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> More seriously, Dole was a 2lt on the front lines with the
>>>>> 10th Mountain Division (presumably infantry branch) when he was wounded
>>>>> trying to pull his wounded radioman to safety. IIRC from a speech he
>>>>> gave, he almost died three times (on the battlefield, and two different
>>>>> times after surgeries stateside). Got a Bronze Star and 2 Purple Hearts
>>>>> for his efforts.
>>>>> ISTR he once quipped about how he got assigned to the 10th Mountain
>>>>> Division -- "I'm from Kansas, and this was the army..."
>>
>>
>>>> A distinguished and witty gentlemen, without a doubt.
>>>
>>> They sent him all casts and bandages on a troop train back to Kansas and
>>> when his family went on the train to get him they found that the rest of
>>> the soldiers had been using him as an ashtray.
>>
>>
>> I guess I misplaced my sense of humor. I may not be a Republican, but we
>> were in the same convoy going to Italy in December 1944, and he deserves
>> better than to have jokes made about the wounds he sustained for his nation.
>>
>> George Z.
>>
>>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
> Sorry, it wasn't meant to be funny. It's the story he told an
> interviewer during his presidential campaign after the interviewer asked
> him if his WWII record would be meaningful to the current generation. I
> guess his point was that it wasn't meaningful to some of his own
> generation. He never asked for any special treatment because he was a
> wounded veteran, he just went back to his life as best he could.
>
> Joe

Point taken.....thanks.

George Z.

[Erik Von Erich]

Bob McKellar > wrote in message >...

> After all the discussion of Kerry's VN history, I wondered
> if we have had any other recent ( last 75 years or so )
> presidents or major contenders who have killed somebody in a
> personal and particular way. We have had bomb droppers (
> GHWB, McGovern ) and Truman's artillery and Ford's AA, but
> little close range infantry type experience in our leaders
> since Teddy R.
>
> Bob Kerrey would certainly qualify, but he didn't make it
> too far in his presidential bid. Bob Dole was in serious
> combat, but I don't know if his shooting experience was
> aimed or "to whom it may concern".
>
> Maybe I have forgotten something ( not an unusual event )
> and maybe it is a silly thing to think about. However, I
> think the experience of picking a particular human being and
> blowing him away would have quite an effect on somebody.


I know for a fact that Laura Bush's automobile was more lethal than
Dubya's Delta Dagger turned out to be. One crash. One kill.

I'm only kidding! I'm kidding all of my fellow naval scientists.

Semper Sci
Do or die
Hold 'em high
At Haze Gray and USNI

[Jack Linthicum]

(Chris Mark) wrote in message >...
> >From: Joe Osman Josph.Osman@veriz
>
> >I thought that he was in Military Government, there being a story of him
> >becoming "military mayor" of the town his family was from.
>
> Heinz Kissinger came of age in Nazi Germany, having been born in 1923, the
> first child of a Jewish couple in Fürth, Germany. In 1938, the family
> immigrated to American and settled in New York City. Kissinger was a student
> at City College when he received his draft notice shortly after his nineteenth
> birthday and, by February of 1943, he left for Infantry basic at Camp Croft. He
> became a naturalized citizen in Spartanburg on March 19, 1943, along with 348
> other Camp Croft soldiers, 131 of whom were also Germans. Despite being away
> from his family, and outside of a German-Jewish community for the first time in
> his life, Kissinger found South Carolina to be more of a "new world" than New
> York had ever been, and he wrote that the experience was "exhilarating." He was
> said to have been a solitary figure but performed well during basic training
> and after completing basic in June 1943, he was sent to nearby Clemson
> University where he qualified for the Army Specialized Training Program (ASTP)
> and was sent to Lafayette College in Pennsylvania. When the program was
> canceled in April of 1944, Kissinger found himself sent, along with 2,800 other
> ASTP candidates, to Camp Claiborne, LA to join the 84th Infantry Division.
> Assigned to Company G, 335th Infantry Regiment, Kissinger departed for Germany
> in November 1944 and, as part of the Ninth Army, quickly pushed into Germany
> only to be driven back into Belgium during the Battle of the Bulge. By March,
> the company was back in Germany, arriving at Krefled where Kissinger, a PFC
> with no security clearance but displaying other obvious qualities, became the
> administrator of the city. Shortly afterwards, he was transferred to the
> Counter-Intellegence branch, promoted to the rank of Sergeant, and served with
> distinction in other important occupational duties. Demobilized in May 1946,
> Kissinger worked for a time in Europe as an instructor at the European Command
> Counter Intelligence School in Oberhammergau before returning to the US,
> entering Harvard University under the G.I. bill.
>

Something screwy here:
Louisiana Maneuvers
The Great Louisiana Maneuvers also known as The Big One was the
largest military exercise of its kind ever held in United States,
involving half a million men and 19 Army Divisions, taking place over
3400 square miles of Louisiana during August - September 1941. It was
preparation for United States' entry into World War II. Many future
military heroes were involved, including Mark Clark, Omar Bradley,
Dwight D. Eisenhower, George Marshall and George Patton. A young
lieutenant named Henry Kissinger was also there.
http://www.fact-index.com/l/lo/louisiana_maneuvers.html

Henry Kissinger, a slim, tosseled-haired lieutenant with a heavy
German accent, was one of the most famous soldiers to come out of Camp
Claiborne during the Louisiana Maneuvers. His training in Louisiana
laid the foundation for his knowledge and grasps for understanding
Civil Action and handling of governmental problems on large and small
scales. This experience served him well in later years when he became
Secretary of State during the Richard Nixon administration.


http://www.crt.state.la.us/crt/tourism/lawwii/Maneuvers/Robertson/Careers.htm

[Howard Berkowitz]

In article >,
(Jack Linthicum) wrote:

> (Chris Mark) wrote in message
> >...
> > >From: Joe Osman Josph.Osman@veriz
> >
> > >I thought that he was in Military Government, there being a story of
> > >him
> > >becoming "military mayor" of the town his family was from.

> Something screwy here:

I haven't been able to find any reference besides this, and a couple of
online encyclopedias, that suggest Kissinger was in the Louisiana
maneuvers. The biographies I have specifically mention him getting into
military government as an enlisted man.

> http://www.crt.state.la.us/crt/tourism/lawwii/Maneuvers/Robertson/Careers.
> htm

[news]

> I know for a fact that Laura Bush's automobile was more lethal than
> Dubya's Delta Dagger turned out to be. One crash. One kill.
>



Well it is a fact that Teddy's car killed more then Bushes Delta Dager....



Jim

[Tarver Engineering]

"news" > wrote in message
...
>
> > I know for a fact that Laura Bush's automobile was more lethal than
> > Dubya's Delta Dagger turned out to be. One crash. One kill.

> Well it is a fact that Teddy's car killed more then Bushes Delta Dager....

What is up with arresting that Peterson guy?