Cancelling IFR in Bravo airspace

[Terence Wilson[_2_]]

On a few occasions I have filed a departure procedure to a nearby
intersection just to get on top (comments section reads "IFR to VFR on
top"). After breaking out of the clouds and advising ATC of the bases
and tops, I usually cancel IFR and proceed "own nav" with flight
following. Which brings me to my question, if I cancel inside Bravo
airspace do I have an implicit clearance because I got there under IFR
in the first place, or is it common practice for ATC to give an
explicit clearance?

I ask because I'm a new instrument rated pilot and I'm pretty sure
both scenarios have happened to me recently. Thanks in advance.

[Sam Spade]

Terence Wilson wrote:
> On a few occasions I have filed a departure procedure to a nearby
> intersection just to get on top (comments section reads "IFR to VFR on
> top"). After breaking out of the clouds and advising ATC of the bases
> and tops, I usually cancel IFR and proceed "own nav" with flight
> following. Which brings me to my question, if I cancel inside Bravo
> airspace do I have an implicit clearance because I got there under IFR
> in the first place, or is it common practice for ATC to give an
> explicit clearance?
>
> I ask because I'm a new instrument rated pilot and I'm pretty sure
> both scenarios have happened to me recently. Thanks in advance.

You have no idea of what ATC needs to do with you if you cancel on an
IFR climnb to on-top. So, keep it simple, and stay with the IFR
clearance until either above or otherwise clear of the Class B airspace.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_2_]]

Terence Wilson wrote:
>
> On a few occasions I have filed a departure procedure to a nearby
> intersection just to get on top (comments section reads "IFR to VFR on
> top"). After breaking out of the clouds and advising ATC of the bases
> and tops, I usually cancel IFR and proceed "own nav" with flight
> following. Which brings me to my question, if I cancel inside Bravo
> airspace do I have an implicit clearance because I got there under IFR
> in the first place, or is it common practice for ATC to give an
> explicit clearance?
>

Is your clearance limit inside Class B airspace?

[Terence Wilson[_2_]]

On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 18:15:04 -0700, Sam Spade >
wrote:

>You have no idea of what ATC needs to do with you if you cancel on an
>IFR climnb to on-top. So, keep it simple, and stay with the IFR
>clearance until either above or otherwise clear of the Class B airspace.

On the last two occasions ATC has queried whether I was on top yet and
then asked what my intention was, I cancelled, and continued on my
merry way inside Bravo.

So obviously they were ok with it, but my original question stands, am
I cleared into the class B after I canel in class B?

[Terence Wilson[_2_]]

On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 20:38:48 -0500, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>Terence Wilson wrote:
>>
>> On a few occasions I have filed a departure procedure to a nearby
>> intersection just to get on top (comments section reads "IFR to VFR on
>> top"). After breaking out of the clouds and advising ATC of the bases
>> and tops, I usually cancel IFR and proceed "own nav" with flight
>> following. Which brings me to my question, if I cancel inside Bravo
>> airspace do I have an implicit clearance because I got there under IFR
>> in the first place, or is it common practice for ATC to give an
>> explicit clearance?
>>
>
>Is your clearance limit inside Class B airspace?

Outside.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_2_]]

Terence Wilson wrote:
>
> So obviously they were ok with it, but my original question stands, am
> I cleared into the class B after I canel in class B?
>

Did you receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction
for that area before operating an aircraft in that area? Only one clearance
is required.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_2_]]

Terence Wilson wrote:
>
> Outside.
>

Then I don't see the issue. If you're concerned about having a clearance to
operate in Class B airspace don't cancel IFR until you're outside.

[Hamish Reid]

In article >,
Sam Spade > wrote:

> Terence Wilson wrote:
> > On a few occasions I have filed a departure procedure to a nearby
> > intersection just to get on top (comments section reads "IFR to VFR on
> > top"). After breaking out of the clouds and advising ATC of the bases
> > and tops, I usually cancel IFR and proceed "own nav" with flight
> > following. Which brings me to my question, if I cancel inside Bravo
> > airspace do I have an implicit clearance because I got there under IFR
> > in the first place, or is it common practice for ATC to give an
> > explicit clearance?
> >
> > I ask because I'm a new instrument rated pilot and I'm pretty sure
> > both scenarios have happened to me recently. Thanks in advance.
>
> You have no idea of what ATC needs to do with you if you cancel on an
> IFR climnb to on-top. So, keep it simple, and stay with the IFR
> clearance until either above or otherwise clear of the Class B airspace.

Like me, by the sound of things Terence flies out of Oakland (KOAK) in
NorCal Approach territory (in 2BG, no less :-)). On the usual "get out
of Oakland" OTP clearance (e.g. vectors for REBAS or SGD), NorCal makes
it very clear they want you to cancel as soon as possible -- "advise
when clear of clouds" often followed by terse questions about whether
you've broken out on top or not -- and can get quite audibly irritated
if you don't cancel ASAP (as I discovered a while back :-)). Given the
traffic routing into and out of KOAK and KSFO in the vicinity of path
between KOAK and REBAS (for example), I guess I don't blame them -- and
you end up canceling inside the Class B airspace, typically somewhere
abeam Emeryville or Berkeley (or Hayward if you're going the other way).
At which point you typically get told to resume own nav, VFR, with
flight following.

Having said all that, I guess I've always assumed that if they cut me
loose like that deep in the Class B airspace they've at least implicitly
cleared me into that airspace already. But then in the last few years
NorCal has had a lot of trouble with the c word when it comes to KSFO's
Class B. I've approached or departed Oakland VFR many times and been
given an altitude assignment (for traffic or whatever) that puts me into
the Class B without hearing the magic "cleared into the Class B...".
It's been a common complaint 'round here for quite a while; yet NorCal
controllers tend to get irritated if you ask whether you've been cleared
into the Class B airspace...

Hamish

[Sam Spade]

Terence Wilson wrote:

> On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 18:15:04 -0700, Sam Spade >
> wrote:
>
>
>>You have no idea of what ATC needs to do with you if you cancel on an
>>IFR climnb to on-top. So, keep it simple, and stay with the IFR
>>clearance until either above or otherwise clear of the Class B airspace.
>
>
> On the last two occasions ATC has queried whether I was on top yet and
> then asked what my intention was, I cancelled, and continued on my
> merry way inside Bravo.
>
> So obviously they were ok with it, but my original question stands, am
> I cleared into the class B after I canel in class B?

If my clearance limit for the IFR climb was inside Class B I would
reply, "I request a clearance to outside Class B before I cancel."

It's your butt that's on the line, not their's.

Or, just say "negative" when they ask if you're on top, thus forcing a
clearance out of the quagmire.

[Mark Hansen]

On 08/07/08 06:21, Sam Spade wrote:
> Terence Wilson wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 18:15:04 -0700, Sam Spade >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>You have no idea of what ATC needs to do with you if you cancel on an
>>>IFR climnb to on-top. So, keep it simple, and stay with the IFR
>>>clearance until either above or otherwise clear of the Class B airspace.
>>
>>
>> On the last two occasions ATC has queried whether I was on top yet and
>> then asked what my intention was, I cancelled, and continued on my
>> merry way inside Bravo.
>>
>> So obviously they were ok with it, but my original question stands, am
>> I cleared into the class B after I canel in class B?
>
> If my clearance limit for the IFR climb was inside Class B I would
> reply, "I request a clearance to outside Class B before I cancel."
>
> It's your butt that's on the line, not their's.
>
> Or, just say "negative" when they ask if you're on top, thus forcing a
> clearance out of the quagmire.

I'm confused about why you believe you have to lie about being on top.
When asked for your intentions, why not just say "Remain IFR until
clear of Class Bravo"?


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Sam Spade]

Mark Hansen wrote:
> On 08/07/08 06:21, Sam Spade wrote:
>
>>Terence Wilson wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 18:15:04 -0700, Sam Spade >
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>You have no idea of what ATC needs to do with you if you cancel on an
>>>>IFR climnb to on-top. So, keep it simple, and stay with the IFR
>>>>clearance until either above or otherwise clear of the Class B airspace.
>>>
>>>
>>>On the last two occasions ATC has queried whether I was on top yet and
>>>then asked what my intention was, I cancelled, and continued on my
>>>merry way inside Bravo.
>>>
>>>So obviously they were ok with it, but my original question stands, am
>>>I cleared into the class B after I canel in class B?
>>
>>If my clearance limit for the IFR climb was inside Class B I would
>>reply, "I request a clearance to outside Class B before I cancel."
>>
>>It's your butt that's on the line, not their's.
>>
>>Or, just say "negative" when they ask if you're on top, thus forcing a
>>clearance out of the quagmire.
>
>
> I'm confused about why you believe you have to lie about being on top.
> When asked for your intentions, why not just say "Remain IFR until
> clear of Class Bravo"?
>
>
That would work, too.

In any case, my interptretation of when I am legally on top may differ
from your's. The typical kee-jerk response is to "please the
controller" and report on top when just breaking out in the clear.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_2_]]

Sam Spade wrote:
>
> In any case, my interptretation of when I am legally on top may differ
> from your's. The typical kee-jerk response is to "please the
> controller" and report on top when just breaking out in the clear.
>

You're on top when you're in conditions suitable for VFR flight. You're not
on top when you break out into the sunshine, you have to be at least 1000
feet above that cloud.

[Mark Hansen]

On 08/07/08 09:29, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> Sam Spade wrote:
>>
>> In any case, my interptretation of when I am legally on top may differ
>> from your's. The typical kee-jerk response is to "please the
>> controller" and report on top when just breaking out in the clear.
>>
>
> You're on top when you're in conditions suitable for VFR flight. You're not
> on top when you break out into the sunshine, you have to be at least 1000
> feet above that cloud.
>
>

1000' above the cloud? As I understand the cloud clearance requirements,
in Class B airspace you just need to be clear of clouds (yes, this topic
is about flight within Class B airspace).


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Steven P. McNicoll[_2_]]

Mark Hansen wrote:
>
> 1000' above the cloud? As I understand the cloud clearance
> requirements, in Class B airspace you just need to be clear of clouds
> (yes, this topic is about flight within Class B airspace).
>

Perhaps I lost track. Did he not say his clearance limit was outside Class
B airspace?

[Mark Hansen]

On 08/07/08 11:03, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> Mark Hansen wrote:
>>
>> 1000' above the cloud? As I understand the cloud clearance
>> requirements, in Class B airspace you just need to be clear of clouds
>> (yes, this topic is about flight within Class B airspace).
>>
>
> Perhaps I lost track. Did he not say his clearance limit was outside Class
> B airspace?
>
>


How is that relevant? His question was about canceling IFR while still
inside the Class B airspace, once he reaches VFR On Top conditions.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Steven P. McNicoll[_2_]]

Mark Hansen wrote:
>
> How is that relevant? His question was about canceling IFR while still
> inside the Class B airspace, once he reaches VFR On Top conditions.
>

The relevance is if he maintains the IFR clearance until he's outside the
Class B airspace he doesn't cancel inside Class B airspace.

[Mark Hansen]

On 08/07/08 12:18, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> Mark Hansen wrote:
>>
>> How is that relevant? His question was about canceling IFR while still
>> inside the Class B airspace, once he reaches VFR On Top conditions.
>>
>
> The relevance is if he maintains the IFR clearance until he's outside the
> Class B airspace he doesn't cancel inside Class B airspace.
>
>


The OP was asking specifically about the ramification of canceling his
IFR clearance while still inside the Class B.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Steven P. McNicoll[_2_]]

Mark Hansen wrote:
>
> The OP was asking specifically about the ramification of canceling his
> IFR clearance while still inside the Class B.
>

Yes, and I asked him if his clearance limit was inside or outside of Class B
airspace and he said it was outside.

[Mark Hansen]

On 08/07/08 13:23, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> Mark Hansen wrote:
>>
>> The OP was asking specifically about the ramification of canceling his
>> IFR clearance while still inside the Class B.
>>
>
> Yes, and I asked him if his clearance limit was inside or outside of Class B
> airspace and he said it was outside.
>
>

My gosh, Steven. The OP said he was canceling while inside Class B and
you said he needed to be 1000' above the clouds. Now because you have
been caught making a mistake, you must try to twist the discussion around
to obfuscate the fact.

I'm out of this one. Good luck.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_2_]]

Mark Hansen wrote:
>
> My gosh, Steven. The OP said he was canceling while inside Class B and
> you said he needed to be 1000' above the clouds. Now because you have
> been caught making a mistake, you must try to twist the discussion
> around to obfuscate the fact.
>

I believe I said I might have lost track of the thread. Obviously you did
too.


>
> I'm out of this one.
>

No kidding.

[Sam Spade]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> Sam Spade wrote:
>
>>In any case, my interptretation of when I am legally on top may differ
>>from your's. The typical kee-jerk response is to "please the
>>controller" and report on top when just breaking out in the clear.
>>
>
>
> You're on top when you're in conditions suitable for VFR flight. You're not
> on top when you break out into the sunshine, you have to be at least 1000
> feet above that cloud.
>
>
My point exactly.

[Newps]

Sam Spade wrote:
> Terence Wilson wrote:
>> On a few occasions I have filed a departure procedure to a nearby
>> intersection just to get on top (comments section reads "IFR to VFR on
>> top"). After breaking out of the clouds and advising ATC of the bases
>> and tops, I usually cancel IFR and proceed "own nav" with flight
>> following. Which brings me to my question, if I cancel inside Bravo
>> airspace do I have an implicit clearance because I got there under IFR
>> in the first place, or is it common practice for ATC to give an
>> explicit clearance?
>>
>> I ask because I'm a new instrument rated pilot and I'm pretty sure
>> both scenarios have happened to me recently. Thanks in advance.
>
> You have no idea of what ATC needs to do with you if you cancel on an
> IFR climnb to on-top. So, keep it simple, and stay with the IFR
> clearance until either above or otherwise clear of the Class B airspace.


Hogwash. Cancelling IFR only makes ATC's life easier. Less separation
is required. You do not need to prenegotiate....."Ah, approach, I'll
cancel if you give me clearance out of the class B."

[Bob F.[_2_]]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
m...
> Mark Hansen wrote:
>>
>> My gosh, Steven. The OP said he was canceling while inside Class B and
>> you said he needed to be 1000' above the clouds. Now because you have
>> been caught making a mistake, you must try to twist the discussion
>> around to obfuscate the fact.
>>
>
> I believe I said I might have lost track of the thread.

This might be because no one believed it...a controller...lost track?
Doesn't say a lot about competency.

Regards, BobF.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_2_]]

Bob F. wrote:
>
> This might be because no one believed it...a controller...lost track?
> Doesn't say a lot about competency.
>

You're free to believe whatever you choose.