Old Planes...Where Are They Now

[Charles Talleyrand]

The US had more than a thousand F-4s, along with scads more
A-4, F-101s and so on. Obviously some went to museums. But
where are the rest? And if they are sitting in a desert somewhere,
what's their condition.

Basically, could someone with a lot of money build themselves
an old airforce out of what's available, or has everything been
scrapped?

[Kevin Brooks]

"Charles Talleyrand" > wrote in message
...
> The US had more than a thousand F-4s, along with scads more
> A-4, F-101s and so on. Obviously some went to museums. But
> where are the rest? And if they are sitting in a desert somewhere,
> what's their condition.

The F-101's were scrapped or sent to museums long ago. Some of the A-4's
recently (within the last three or four years) were sold off to the
Brazilians, IIRC, after some rebuild and modification work. I'd guess a fair
number of F-4's are still at AMARC, but a fair number have ended up as
QF-4's, getting shot at by various fighters and air defense systems. As did
a fair number of the F-102's before them (and some F-106's IIRC?).

>
> Basically, could someone with a lot of money build themselves
> an old airforce out of what's available, or has everything been
> scrapped?

AMARC reutilizes what it can; they generate spares for aircraft still in
service, and sometimes they regenerate the aircraft themselves for either
domestic or foreign service. There are some law enforcement organizations
that fly aircraft that went through AMARC; I believe the remaining C-130's
flying in civilian hands in the firefighting role are also AMARC veterans.
The USAF is, from what I have read, putting a few of the B-1B's that were
sent into storage a year or two ago back into service. When their utility is
at an end, AMARC disposes of the remains to the scrapdealers.

Brooks
>
>

[Ron]

>The F-101's were scrapped or sent to museums long ago. Some of the A-4's
>recently (within the last three or four years) were sold off to the
>Brazilians, IIRC, after some rebuild and modification work. I'd guess a fair
>number of F-4's are still at AMARC, but a fair number have ended up as
>QF-4's, getting shot at by various fighters and air defense systems. As did
>a fair number of the F-102's before them (and some F-106's IIRC?).
>

The F-4s that were in the best condition (last to be retired) were the first
ones to be used as drones. They are about out of F-4Gs I think, and are
probably onto the Es now.

Ron
PA-31T Cheyenne II
Maharashtra Weather Modification Program
Pune, India

[Neil Gerace]

"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
...

> AMARC reutilizes what it can; they generate spares for aircraft still in
> service, and sometimes they regenerate the aircraft themselves for either
> domestic or foreign service.

Yes. Several sets of F-111 wings and other structural parts have been sold
to the RAAF under the F-111 Sole Operator Program for some ridiculously low
price, but are kept in the warm dry air of AMARC until we need them. They
may be getting our TAP-3s to look after too, as they have been withdrawn
from service.

[John A. Weeks III]

In article >, Charles Talleyrand
> wrote:

> Basically, could someone with a lot of money build themselves
> an old airforce out of what's available, or has everything been
> scrapped?

The airframes of combat aircraft that are sent to storage are
"de-mil'ed" prior to being allowed into civilian hands. It is
getting more and more rare for former combat planes to be released
given that people have tried to put them back into active flying
condition. Non-combat aircraft are still regularly sold to the
public. Common uses are as cargo transport and firefighting.

Some folks have built flying fighter jets from spare parts.
In these cases, they did not use US military airframes. Rather,
they either got a hold of spare parts, tooling spares from the
manufacture that were to be scrapped, or parts from jets sold
to foriegn countries. The most famous of these is the F-104
that set the low level speed record that was built by Darryl
Greenamyer.

The problem with allowing combat aircraft into private hands
began when an unqualified pilot attempted to fly a privately
owned F-86 Saber Jet out of the Fresno airport. He botched
the take-off, and crashed into an ice cream stand killing
a number of children who were standing in line for ice cream
on a hot California afternoon. Not good. Not good at all.
While one should question why an ice cream stand was built
at the end of a shared military/commercial runway, dead kids
does not make good publicity.

Even with all the now strict rules, funny stuff does still
happen. Case in point is the F-18 Hornet that showed up on
E-bay last year. It was a former Blue Angels aircraft that
had not been demiled. In fact, with some standard maintenance
work, it could have been put back into the air. I don't know
if the full story was ever revealed on how that airplane ended
up in private hands. The most likely speculation that I heard
is that someone had a airplane that the National Museum Of
Naval Aviation wanted badly enough, and they traded the Hornet
in near working condition to get their museum piece.

-john-

--
================================================== ==================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
================================================== ==================

[Kevin Brooks]

"Ron" > wrote in message
...
> >The F-101's were scrapped or sent to museums long ago. Some of the A-4's
> >recently (within the last three or four years) were sold off to the
> >Brazilians, IIRC, after some rebuild and modification work. I'd guess a
fair
> >number of F-4's are still at AMARC, but a fair number have ended up as
> >QF-4's, getting shot at by various fighters and air defense systems. As
did
> >a fair number of the F-102's before them (and some F-106's IIRC?).
> >
>
> The F-4s that were in the best condition (last to be retired) were the
first
> ones to be used as drones. They are about out of F-4Gs I think, and are
> probably onto the Es now.

Something I read recently pointed to a decline in QF-4 mods in the near
term; wouldn't be surprised to start seeing some QF-16's from the early
blocks (10 and 15) in the near future.

Brooks

>
> Ron

[Neil Gerace]

"John A. Weeks III" > wrote in message
...
> The problem with allowing combat aircraft into private hands
> began when an unqualified pilot attempted to fly a privately
> owned F-86 Saber Jet out of the Fresno airport. He botched
> the take-off, and crashed into an ice cream stand killing
> a number of children who were standing in line for ice cream
> on a hot California afternoon. Not good. Not good at all.

The fact that it was a fighter is IMO irrelevant, as you said the pilot
wasn't qualified to fly it.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Old Planes...Where Are They Now
>From: "Charles Talleyrand"
>Date: 6/21/04 9:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>The US had more than a thousand F-4s, along with scads more
>A-4, F-101s and so on. Obviously some went to museums. But
>where are the rest? And if they are sitting in a desert somewhere,
>what's their condition.
>
>Basically, could someone with a lot of money build themselves
>an old airforce out of what's available, or has everything been
>scrapped?


To see one resting place of old planes go to my website and read, "In
Remembrance of Willie the Wolf".


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Old Planes...Where Are They Now
>From: "Neil Gerace"
>Date: 6/22/04 6:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"John A. Weeks III" > wrote in message
...
>> The problem with allowing combat aircraft into private hands
>> began when an unqualified pilot attempted to fly a privately
>> owned F-86 Saber Jet out of the Fresno airport. He botched
>> the take-off, and crashed into an ice cream stand killing
>> a number of children who were standing in line for ice cream
>> on a hot California afternoon. Not good. Not good at all.
>
>The fact that it was a fighter is IMO irrelevant, as you said the pilot
>wasn't qualified to fly it.


The B-26 Martin Marauder is a case in point. Every one that has ever been
rebuilt to date has crashed killing all aboard.incliding the one that the CAF
rebuilt and flew. The pilot had heavy hours in Marauders. But not recently and
for all prectical purposes was unqualifed because he wans't current.
If I had a chance to fly in a Marauder today, would I? Not a chance in hell.
Been there. Done that. And 1100 hours in that beast is more than enough.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Ed Rasimus]

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 00:27:38 -0400, "Kevin Brooks"
> wrote:

>
>"Charles Talleyrand" > wrote in message
...
>> The US had more than a thousand F-4s, along with scads more
>> A-4, F-101s and so on. Obviously some went to museums. But
>> where are the rest? And if they are sitting in a desert somewhere,
>> what's their condition.
>
>The F-101's were scrapped or sent to museums long ago. Some of the A-4's
>recently (within the last three or four years) were sold off to the
>Brazilians, IIRC, after some rebuild and modification work. I'd guess a fair
>number of F-4's are still at AMARC, but a fair number have ended up as
>QF-4's, getting shot at by various fighters and air defense systems. As did
>a fair number of the F-102's before them (and some F-106's IIRC?).

The drone program was remarkable to watch while I was at Holloman.
During the four years I was doing Fighter Lead-In, I watched the
F-102, the F-100, the F-106 and the beginnings of the F-4 programs.
(My favorite was the F-100 which came with the call-sign
"Attila"....think about it.) They even had a few F-86s when I started.

The aircraft in Q configuration could be flown by a pilot on board,
remotely with a pilot on board safety observer, and full remote
(obviously the favored approach for target duty!) They were operated
remotely from a ground station as well as from a chase aircraft. The
ground operator was used for T/O and recovery and was in a mobile
console, mounted on a truck chassis and positioned on the centerline
of the runway to aid in approach and departure lineup.

When flown remotely, they aircraft had an emergency destruct package
which necessitated some minimum safe runway clearance procedures. If
there were any possibilty of damage to a Q on a target mission the
drone would be destroyed over the range, rather than attempting
recovery. Saw lots of old bits and pieces out on the White Sands
Missile Range around Mockingbird Gap when I used to go quail hunting
out there.

Got lots of chance to watch the operations from the tower or the
Supervisor of Flying truck.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Joe Osman]

"Charles Talleyrand" > wrote in message
...
> The US had more than a thousand F-4s, along with scads more
> A-4, F-101s and so on. Obviously some went to museums. But
> where are the rest? And if they are sitting in a desert somewhere,
> what's their condition.
>
> Basically, could someone with a lot of money build themselves
> an old airforce out of what's available, or has everything been
> scrapped?
>
>
Some are scattered about the countryside having been given to veteran's
clubs or municipalities. I pass by an A-4 (Village of Oriskany), a B-52
(local veteran's club) and a Sherman tank (another veteran's club) every
workday.

Joe




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[Ron W]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Old Planes...Where Are They Now
>
> The B-26 Martin Marauder is a case in point. Every one that has ever been
> rebuilt to date has crashed killing all aboard.incliding the one that the
CAF
> rebuilt and flew. The pilot had heavy hours in Marauders. But not recently
and
> for all prectical purposes was unqualifed because he wans't current.
> If I had a chance to fly in a Marauder today, would I? Not a chance in
hell.
> Been there. Done that. And 1100 hours in that beast is more than enough.

Art, you may wish to visit Kermit Weeks at Polk City Florida. He flies a
B-26 every now and then
though I don't know how recently.

http://www.fantasyofflight.com/aircraftpages/b26.htm

I had the pleasure of seeing him fly it at the Sun n' Fun in Lakeland, Fl. a
number of years ago.
I hadn't seen a B-26 since I used to go down to Ballast Point on Tampa Bay
to watch for the
"1 a day's in Tampa Bay" in the 40's. I may add that he flies all of the
flyable aircraft in his GREAT
facility, which includes most of them. It's well worth a visit! He is
obviously qualified!!!!!!!!!

Ron

[Rolf Kappe]

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:09:27 -0600, Ed Rasimus
> wrote:

>
>The drone program was remarkable to watch while I was at Holloman.
>During the four years I was doing Fighter Lead-In, I watched the
>F-102, the F-100, the F-106 and the beginnings of the F-4 programs.
>(My favorite was the F-100 which came with the call-sign
>"Attila"....think about it.) They even had a few F-86s when I started.

The last time we flew against the QF-4s at Holloman, they still used
the call sign Atilla.

--Rolf

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
"John A. Weeks III" > wrote:

> The problem with allowing combat aircraft into private hands
> began when an unqualified pilot attempted to fly a privately
> owned F-86 Sabre Jet out of the Fresno airport.

That was Sacramento Metro, which resides in an area surrounded
by residential neighborhoods. My wife grew up a couple miles west
of the airport.

> He botched
> the take-off, and crashed into an ice cream stand killing
> a number of children who were standing in line for ice cream
> on a hot California afternoon.

[WalterM140]

>Basically, could someone with a lot of money build themselves
>an old airforce out of what's available, or has everything been
>scrapped?
>

Yeah, you never know when a soccer game may get out of hand.

Walt

[Cub Driver]

The most famous graveyard for the USAF is at Davis-Monthan AFB outside
Tucson AZ. My father ended his days there--not in the graveyard
exactly, but sussing out how to package up say four engines for
shipment to someone who needed them. I think it was the only job in
which he was ever truly happy.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

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