Re: Alt.senile.artKramer

[B2431]

>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 8/7/2004 12:00 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Of course you must see that those who say I have no knowledge of WW II are
>>those who never were in WW II.
>
>Not really. Much of my knowledge on WWII comes from authors who were there or
>interviewed participants at the Strategic, Tactical and operational levels.
>
>>They, as far as WW II goes, are just wannabees
>
>Are you serious? I love the B-17 and I would like to think if I wasn't
>-(minus)
>27 years old at the out break of war that I would have gotten a chance to
>pilot
>one, but I'm far from a "wannabee". I wouldn't trade my experience for yours
>or
>any other. Perhaps that's a bit egotistical, but it's true.
>
>>Then of course it turns out that they are all Neocons. while I am a yellow
>>dog Democrat. See a connection?
>
>I grew tired and disappointed with you long before you went on your political
>tirade and exposed your political beliefs.
>
>
>BUFDRVR
>

You could try telling Art that all war is local and those who are there have
only the vaguest idea what is going on much further than the eye can see. When
I was in combat in Viet Nam I could tell you exactly what I had experienced,
but had no idea about the rest of the war. The same goes for Art. He can tell
you what it's like to be a bombardier in B-26s, but he can't tell you what the
men who PUT him there did nor could he tell you what the poor slobs in the
infantry experienced.

He has no idea the maintainers who fixed and armed that B-26 pulled additional
duties he benefitted from like KP, trash, latrine details and how they felt
about it.

Even today most aircrews have no idea how many people put them in the air
besides the base ops, crew chiefs, weather guessers and the like. I can't tell
you how many aircrewmen believed the crewchiefs knew more about individual
systems than the specialists. Nor could I tell you how many times I couldn't
fix an aircraft because the pilot/nav/FE/load was too busy to explain his
writeups beyond "I told the crewchief." This is one of the reasons I loathed
most aircrewmen who became maintenance officers.

Just as a matter of curiosity are pilots ever taught what drives the indicators
they rely on? If they are they frequently forget. I loved it when they would
tell me the rate of turn pointer on the ADI doesn't work so I need to change
the ADI. It's driven by a gyro separate from the vertical gyro.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Alt.senile.artKramer
>From: (B2431)
>Date: 8/7/2004 1:19 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id:

>ou could try telling Art that all war is local and those who are there have
>only the vaguest idea what is going on much further than the eye can see.
>When
>I was in combat in Viet Nam I could tell you exactly what I had experienced,

I never wrote about anything but B-26's or anything other than bombing from a
B-26.


>He has no idea the maintainers who fixed and armed that B-26 pulled
>additional
>duties he benefitted from like KP, trash, latrine details and how they felt
>about it.

Our maintainers wwre all T/sgts an never pulled KP or latrine duty or even
guard duty but I pulled Officer of the Day and Officer of the Guard regularly
And if we never came back from a mission the crew chiefs would get a new plane
and crew in a heartbeat. And we would be only a memory soon to be forgotten.
And when the war ended these guys would live long and happy lives while we lay
buried in foriegn soil. War is not about gyros. It is about men who go out and
never come back as opposed to other men wo live their lives in relaitive
safety..And if you don't know the difference between them, you have never been
to war.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[BUFDRVR]

Dan wrote:

>You could try telling Art that all war is local and those who are there have
>only the vaguest idea what is going on much further than the eye can see.

I tried that. I even fessed up that I was so busy flying and planning during
OIF that I have no idea what happened in that conflict. He ignored the post,
which is Kramer's SOP.

>Even today most aircrews have no idea how many people put them in the air
>besides the base ops, crew chiefs, weather guessers and the like. I can't
>tell

If by most you mean 51%, I'll agree, but if you mean more than that, I
disagree.

>Just as a matter of curiosity are pilots ever taught what drives the
>indicators
>they rely on?

There is absolutely, no instruction on Forms, except reading them at any
training level that I've experienced. In fact, the idea of "just telling the
crew chief" is bred into pilots from (S)UPT. There is no maintenance debrief
during pilot training. If there is something wrong with the jet, the IP writes
it up (or the student if solo) and then hands the forms to the civilian
contractor crew chief on landing.The IP *may* provide a brief explanation, but
not always.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Billy Preston]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> War is not about gyros. It is about men who go out and
> never come back as opposed to other men wo live their lives in relaitive
> safety..And if you don't know the difference between them, you have never been
> to war.

You had battles, they had war, get it?

Do you make this **** up as you go along?

I know about 100's of support troops who fed the fishes after their boat was sunk.

War is about all of the men, women, and children involved in the war or battle.
The bomb loader is a war instrument, the cook is a war instrument, and I would
even call positions on a bomber crew a war instrument. A 12 year old kid who
throws a grenade into a tent with a bunch of nurses and doctors is a war
instrument. The Japanese thug who knifes an MP in the back to steal his watch
is a war instrument.

You are wrong. Admit it.

[L'acrobat]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >>
> >
> >
> >You still don't get it, do you?
> >
> >Nobody wants to be like you - you are blinkered, ignorant and have made a
> >fool of yourself for years.
> >
>
> Takes one to know one.
>

Such dignity and intellect...

[robert arndt]

> I never wrote about anything but B-26's or anything other than bombing from a
> B-26.

IIRC, the B-26 was a deathtrap that killed more airmen in accidents
than in battle. Art raves on about it forever as if that aircraft
alone won the war which is garbage. And to make matters worse he
constantly talks about the bravery of the B-26 crews as if all the
other Allied airmen were ****, not to mention Luftwaffe pilots and
crews which kicked ass over anything Art or his crew ever did.
>
>
> >He has no idea the maintainers who fixed and armed that B-26 pulled
> >additional
> >duties he benefitted from like KP, trash, latrine details and how they felt
> >about it.
>
> Our maintainers wwre all T/sgts an never pulled KP or latrine duty or even
> guard duty but I pulled Officer of the Day and Officer of the Guard regularly
> And if we never came back from a mission the crew chiefs would get a new plane
> and crew in a heartbeat. And we would be only a memory soon to be forgotten.
> And when the war ended these guys would live long and happy lives while we lay
> buried in foriegn soil. War is not about gyros. It is about men who go out and
> never come back as opposed to other men wo live their lives in relaitive
> safety..And if you don't know the difference between them, you have never been
> to war.

What utter BS! War is a team effort and those that survived deserve
just as much recognition and respect as those that perished. You call
yourself a Vet Art, what an asshole you are.You personally did not
build, arm, maintain, nor repair your B-26 or perform any other duties
that you benefitted from in the service.

Rob



> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

p.s. Where can I buy a window sticker "I **** on Willie the Wolf"?

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Alt.senile.artKramer
>From: (robert arndt)
>Date: 8/9/2004 3:51 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id:


>p.s. Where can I buy a window sticker "I **** on Willie the Wolf"?


I think that statement tells us a lot more about you than about Willie. Guess
you are sad the Nazis lost. Right? Willie did his part in turning your
beloved Nazi Germany into a burning smoking smoldering mass of wreckage And so
did I and proud of every moment of it.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Marine55 @ iaol.com]

On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 11:44:01 +0100, "M. J. Powell"
> proclaimed:

>Of course. When I was a conscript the 10% most intelligent went into the
>Air Force and of those the 10% most intelligent went into Signals.

I thought guys went into the Air Force to avoid military service.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Marine55 @ iaol.com wrote:
>> Of course. When I was a conscript the 10% most intelligent went into the
>> Air Force and of those the 10% most intelligent went into Signals.
>
> I thought guys went into the Air Force to avoid military service.


Where'd you get that dumb idea? It hasn't been that way since WWII. <G>



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN


http://www.mortimerschnerd.com

[Marine55 @ aol.com]

On 09 Aug 2004 16:45:04 GMT, (ArtKramr) proclaimed:

>Your chances of suvival in the infantry were better than in the Amy Air Corps.

Amy had an Air Force?
Did Mary Sue or Jane?

[M. J. Powell]

In message >,
writes
>On Mon, 9 Aug 2004 11:44:01 +0100, "M. J. Powell"
> proclaimed:
>
>>Of course. When I was a conscript the 10% most intelligent went into the
>>Air Force and of those the 10% most intelligent went into Signals.
>
>I thought guys went into the Air Force to avoid military service.

Not in this country.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

[robert arndt]

(ArtKramr) wrote in message >...
> >Subject: Re: Alt.senile.artKramer
> >From: (robert arndt)
> >Date: 8/9/2004 3:51 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id:
>
>
> >p.s. Where can I buy a window sticker "I **** on Willie the Wolf"?
>
>
> I think that statement tells us a lot more about you than about Willie. Guess
> you are sad the Nazis lost. Right? Willie did his part in turning your
> beloved Nazi Germany into a burning smoking smoldering mass of wreckage And so
> did I and proud of every moment of it.

I put that statement there to see how you would respond, and yes, you
responded to the comment about the plane rather than about the two
paragraphs about your disservice to the OTHER airman who served in WW2
and those that are often forgottten who never saw battle but kept the
airmen comfortable and maintained their machines.
I honestly don't care about your plane or a sticker... but it just
goes to show what you value most since you talk of that machine like
it was a person. I pity your family and relatives who have to listen
to your "Wolf" stories in person day-after-day 24/7.
If WW2 is the only thing you've done in life that you admire you are
truly a shallow person. What did you do with the REST of your life
these past 60 years?

Rob

p.s. No, I am not sad the Nazis lost.
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

Y>ubject: Re: Alt.senile.artKramer
>From: (robert arndt)
>Date: 8/9/2004 5:46 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote in message
>...
>> >Subject: Re: Alt.senile.artKramer
>> >From: (robert arndt)
>> >Date: 8/9/2004 3:51 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id:
>>
>>
>> >p.s. Where can I buy a window sticker "I **** on Willie the Wolf"?
>>
>>
>> I think that statement tells us a lot more about you than about Willie.
>Guess
>> you are sad the Nazis lost. Right? Willie did his part in turning your
>> beloved Nazi Germany into a burning smoking smoldering mass of wreckage
>And so
>> did I and proud of every moment of it.
>
>I put that statement there to see how you would respond, and yes, you
>responded to the comment about the plane rather than about the two
>paragraphs about your disservice to the OTHER airman who served in WW2
>and those that are often forgottten who never saw battle but kept the
>airmen comfortable and maintained their machines.
>I honestly don't care about your plane or a sticker... but it just
>goes to show what you value most since you talk of that machine like
>it was a person. I pity your family and relatives who have to listen
>to your "Wolf" stories in person day-after-day 24/7.
>If WW2 is the only thing you've done in life that you admire you are
>truly a shallow person. What did you do with the REST of your life
>these past 60 years?
>
>Rob

Senior Vice President Creative Supervisor J. Walter Thompson Inc. NY.20 years

Contributing Editor Modern Photography Magazine 10 years,

Want more loser?



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Do not answer]

robert arndt wrote:
>
>
> IIRC, the B-26 was a deathtrap that killed more airmen in accidents
> than in battle. Art raves on about it forever as if that aircraft
> alone won the war which is garbage. And to make matters worse he
> constantly talks about the bravery of the B-26 crews as if all the
> other Allied airmen were ****, not to mention Luftwaffe pilots and
> crews which kicked ass over anything Art or his crew ever did.

I think that when you experience stuff like what Art did
during the war you get a fondness for what got you through
it alive - be it an airplane, tank, ship. Or your friends!

You don't have to go to war to feel a certain closeness to
people or machines, but surviving a war should make that
closeness so much, well, closer. :-)
ANY team effort brings people closer toghether - with
each other and with their equipment.

What I'm saying is, whatever the merits of the B-26, real
or imagined, I can understand Art's feelings for it!

And as for Arts postings: I read his wartime stories with
great interest. We don't share all views, but so what?
And I have yet to catch hime with what I believe to be a lie.

Just my 2 cents
Asbjorn
--
To reach me by e-mail, please use _sheridan at babcon dot org_.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Alt.senile.artKramer
>From: Do not answer
>Date: 8/10/2004 2:12 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>robert arndt wrote:
>>
>>
>> IIRC, the B-26 was a deathtrap that killed more airmen in accidents
>> than in battle. Art raves on about it forever as if that aircraft
>> alone won the war which is garbage. And to make matters worse he
>> constantly talks about the bravery of the B-26 crews as if all the
>> other Allied airmen were ****, not to mention Luftwaffe pilots and
>> crews which kicked ass over anything Art or his crew ever did.
>
>I think that when you experience stuff like what Art did
>during the war you get a fondness for what got you through
>it alive - be it an airplane, tank, ship. Or your friends!
>
>You don't have to go to war to feel a certain closeness to
>people or machines, but surviving a war should make that
>closeness so much, well, closer. :-)
>ANY team effort brings people closer toghether - with
>each other and with their equipment.
>
>What I'm saying is, whatever the merits of the B-26, real
>or imagined, I can understand Art's feelings for it!
>
>And as for Arts postings: I read his wartime stories with
>great interest. We don't share all views, but so what?
>And I have yet to catch hime with what I believe to be a lie.
>
>Just my 2 cents
>Asbjorn
>--
>To reach me by e-mail, please use _sheridan at babcon dot org_.
>


Thank you. It is nice to have all this work appreciated.


..


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[BUFDRVR]

ArtKramr wrote:

>"JUST" DOING THE SHOOTING AND DING. "JUST?" You are an imbecile.

Well, your inuation of "just loading weapons" is just as ludicrous. Exactly how
many weapons would you have dropped on Europe if no one had loaded them?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[B2431]

>Date: 8/10/2004 4:25 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote in message
>...
>> >Subject: Re: Alt.senile.artKramer
>> >From: (Michael)
>> >Date: 8/9/2004 3:15 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id:
>>
>> >mmm, and here I always thought war was about standing up, making
>> >sacrifice, working together, and everyone doing their part for the
>> >good of their country. At least that's impression I've gotten from
>> >WWII vets who aren't in such a big hurry as you to pat themselves on
>> >the back.
>> >
>> >~Michael
>> >
>>
>> So you yourself have zero experience in combat. Right? Figures.
>
>I may have zero combat experience, but I do have enough sense to
>appreciate *everyone's* service and sacrifice for this country during
>times of war (and peace), not just those that were doing the shooting
>and dying.
>
>~Michael

Forget it, Michael, Art has no respect for those who put him in the nose of
that B-26. I get the impression he actually thinks he could have single
handedly done everything needed to get that heap in the air and on target. Just
think how much manpower we could have saved if aircrewmen did additional duties
as MPs, cooks, supply, BB stackers etc.

What Art refuses to recognize is the ONLY way he could have seen combat is if
there were other people who made it possible. Therefore he feels free to
denigrate other servicemen who served just as ably as he did.

Personally all his putting down non combat servicemen makes me seriously
question if he ever served at all. He is so self centered it is obvious he
never learned teamwork.

What saddens me is how he even puts down other combat vets.

I have yet to figure out how his combat experience is more important mine. I
guess I will never know.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[BUFDRVR]

ArtKramr wrote:

>>>"JUST" DOING THE SHOOTING AND DING. "JUST?" You are an imbecile.
>>
>>Well, your inuation of "just loading weapons" is just as ludicrous. Exactly
>>how
>>many weapons would you have dropped on Europe if no one had loaded them?
>>
>>
>>BUFDRVR
>>
>
>Go drive your Buff.

Nice retort...and I wish I could.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"