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#1
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Logging Simulator Time
I just had my first opportunity to log some approaches in a simulator and that
brought up questions about how to log the time. The Frasca 141 was set up to mimic a Cessna 172. My questions a 1) Does this time get logged as Airplane SEL along with also being logged as a Synthetic Trainer? 2) Do I log the time as "Day" since technically it was daytime outside the building? (I'm assuming that I still want my Day hours + Night hours = Total hours, so it has to be one or the other) There was some confusion over this at the FBO and I figured I'd compound that by looking for some answers here :-) Eric Bartsch |
#2
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Bartscher wrote:
I just had my first opportunity to log some approaches in a simulator and that brought up questions about how to log the time. The Frasca 141 was set up to mimic a Cessna 172. My questions a 1) Does this time get logged as Airplane SEL along with also being logged as a Synthetic Trainer? 2) Do I log the time as "Day" since technically it was daytime outside the building? (I'm assuming that I still want my Day hours + Night hours = Total hours, so it has to be one or the other) There was some confusion over this at the FBO and I figured I'd compound that by looking for some answers here :-) This is what it is NOT logged as: simulator, ASEL, day, night, actual instrument, simulated instrument, PIC, total, etc etc etc... This is what it IS logged as: flight training device AND only if you had an instructor with you. Hilton |
#3
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This is what it is NOT logged as: simulator, ASEL, day, night, actual
instrument, simulated instrument, PIC, total, etc etc etc... This is what it IS logged as: flight training device AND only if you had an instructor with you. Hilton I think I'll stand behind my comment about compounding my confusion by looking to the internet for answers. To clarify my posting, I did have a qualified CFII with me for the sim flight. If I read FAR 61.51 right, I CAN log as Total Time (see 61.51 b-2-v) I CAN log simulated instrument (see 61.51 b-3-iii). Also, 61.51 g-4 looks like it confirms that simulated instrument can be logged in the sim if as you said, an authorized instructor is present. What is unclear is are the answers to my two original questions: 1) Does the sim time also get logged as ASEL? (61.51 b-1-iv implies to me that I would log it as ASEL since the sim was set up as a single engine aircraft. I would also log it as a simulator of course.) 2) Do I log anything in the day or night columns? (61.51 b-3 is unclear on this because paragraphs i,ii,and iii are not mutually exclusive. Otherwise you couldn't log both day and instrument.) I'd appreciate anyone who can reference an FAR or a section of the AIM that spells this out more clearly than what I've already found. Thanks, Eric Bartsch |
#4
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#5
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The device you were in was in all likelihood not considered a simulator,
but rather a flight training device. Whats the difference? A LOT of money and probably the presence of multi-axis motion. I should think that the time in such a Flight Training Device would be loggable as simulated instrument, and as instrument instruction, but not towards day/night/specific type/category/class. The devices that the boys at Continental, Delta, Flight Safety, etc use are true Simulators, and the time in those devices is loggable as aircraft time if I have been told correctly. The tabletop and non-motion devices are NOT simulators, but flight training devices. The owner of one flight school I used to train at was quite ****ed when he discovered that the 10,000 "Aerosim" PCATD that he bought was only legally logabble for 10 hours of primary/initial instrument instruction and was not able to be used for up to 20 hours (as a sim), nor for proficiency . He wrongly thought he had bought a "simulator". Unless your device meets the true definition of a simulator, you may not be able to log it as "flight time" There are certain AC's that clarify the issue, and while people say the AC's are non-regulatory, they DO specify a means of acceptable compliance with published rules. Not following the AC's puts the burden on YOU to prove to the FAA that what you are doing is acceptable. Dave Bartscher wrote: This is what it is NOT logged as: simulator, ASEL, day, night, actual instrument, simulated instrument, PIC, total, etc etc etc... This is what it IS logged as: flight training device AND only if you had an instructor with you. Hilton I think I'll stand behind my comment about compounding my confusion by looking to the internet for answers. To clarify my posting, I did have a qualified CFII with me for the sim flight. If I read FAR 61.51 right, I CAN log as Total Time (see 61.51 b-2-v) I CAN log simulated instrument (see 61.51 b-3-iii). Also, 61.51 g-4 looks like it confirms that simulated instrument can be logged in the sim if as you said, an authorized instructor is present. What is unclear is are the answers to my two original questions: 1) Does the sim time also get logged as ASEL? (61.51 b-1-iv implies to me that I would log it as ASEL since the sim was set up as a single engine aircraft. I would also log it as a simulator of course.) 2) Do I log anything in the day or night columns? (61.51 b-3 is unclear on this because paragraphs i,ii,and iii are not mutually exclusive. Otherwise you couldn't log both day and instrument.) I'd appreciate anyone who can reference an FAR or a section of the AIM that spells this out more clearly than what I've already found. Thanks, Eric Bartsch |
#6
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it should not be added to the total flight time column (usually the
last column). Based on what? The FARs don't define "Total Time", so you can put what you like there. I consider the closest thing to "Total Time" is "Pilot Time", and FTD time counts as that. |
#7
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If your log distinguishes between Total Time and Total Flight Time, log the
time as Total Time...but don't mix it in with flight time. As the FAA Aviation News once said in response to a similar question, "The extension cord isn't long enough." I have a certain amount of familiarity with this question, since I operated an AST-300 business across the street from the Seattle FSDO and had many, many FAA inspectors as customers (on the taxpayer's dime, of course). I also had a letter from the FSDO laying out exactly what the AST-300 could be used for...does the box you used have similar authentication? Bob Gardner "Bartscher" wrote in message ... This is what it is NOT logged as: simulator, ASEL, day, night, actual instrument, simulated instrument, PIC, total, etc etc etc... This is what it IS logged as: flight training device AND only if you had an instructor with you. Hilton I think I'll stand behind my comment about compounding my confusion by looking to the internet for answers. To clarify my posting, I did have a qualified CFII with me for the sim flight. If I read FAR 61.51 right, I CAN log as Total Time (see 61.51 b-2-v) I CAN log simulated instrument (see 61.51 b-3-iii). Also, 61.51 g-4 looks like it confirms that simulated instrument can be logged in the sim if as you said, an authorized instructor is present. What is unclear is are the answers to my two original questions: 1) Does the sim time also get logged as ASEL? (61.51 b-1-iv implies to me that I would log it as ASEL since the sim was set up as a single engine aircraft. I would also log it as a simulator of course.) 2) Do I log anything in the day or night columns? (61.51 b-3 is unclear on this because paragraphs i,ii,and iii are not mutually exclusive. Otherwise you couldn't log both day and instrument.) I'd appreciate anyone who can reference an FAR or a section of the AIM that spells this out more clearly than what I've already found. Thanks, Eric Bartsch |
#8
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I also had a letter from the FSDO laying out
exactly what the AST-300 could be used for...does the box you used have similar authentication? Bob Gardner Well, the Frasca web site was only partially useful here. They did a good job of reviewing what parts of what ratings the 141 can be used for, but they don't say much about how to log it. http://www.frasca.com/web_pages/info...n/logtime2.htm http://www.frasca.com/web_pages/brochures/141bro.htm They also managed to call it both a simulator and a flight training device on the same page (not helpful). They do claim the following: "FAA approved under 14 CFR parts 61 and 141. Guaranteed FAA Level 2 or 3 qualification We not only build these devices to AC120-45A Level 2 or 3 standards, but we can also guarantee that they can be qualified in conjunction with the National Simulator Program Managers office in Atlanta". Of course I'm not quite sure what that means. Sounds like it is Simulated Instrument but maybe not Total Flight Time (which seems odd, not that it has to make sense). Also, the consensus appears to be that it was neither day or night (which does make sense since there wasn't a visual system) Thanks, Eric Bartsch |
#9
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"Dave S" wrote in message nk.net... day/night/specific type/category/class. The devices that the boys at Continental, Delta, Flight Safety, etc use are true Simulators, and the Flight Safety and Simcom (and Flight Level Aviation) use Flight Training Devices as well for piston flight training. Flight Safety and Simcom do not use true "simulators" until they get to turboprops or jets. However, a Flight Training Device can have multi-axis motion just like a simulator. -------------------- Richard Kaplan, CFII www.flyimc.com |
#10
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"FAA approved" misleads a lot of people. It means that someone at FAA HQ has
evaluated the box and decided that it has training value. Each individual location, however, has to be checked out by the local FSDO and a letter of authorization issued. The FSDO came into my place with a 30-page checklist, looking into such things as VOR sensitivity, accuracy of the turn-and-bank, aerodynamic responses, etc. They flew the AST-300 for most of a day before conferring their blessing on it. The fact that the box had been "approved" by HQ meant nothing. Bob Gardner "Bartscher" wrote in message ... I also had a letter from the FSDO laying out exactly what the AST-300 could be used for...does the box you used have similar authentication? Bob Gardner Well, the Frasca web site was only partially useful here. They did a good job of reviewing what parts of what ratings the 141 can be used for, but they don't say much about how to log it. http://www.frasca.com/web_pages/info...n/logtime2.htm http://www.frasca.com/web_pages/brochures/141bro.htm They also managed to call it both a simulator and a flight training device on the same page (not helpful). They do claim the following: "FAA approved under 14 CFR parts 61 and 141. Guaranteed FAA Level 2 or 3 qualification We not only build these devices to AC120-45A Level 2 or 3 standards, but we can also guarantee that they can be qualified in conjunction with the National Simulator Program Managers office in Atlanta". Of course I'm not quite sure what that means. Sounds like it is Simulated Instrument but maybe not Total Flight Time (which seems odd, not that it has to make sense). Also, the consensus appears to be that it was neither day or night (which does make sense since there wasn't a visual system) Thanks, Eric Bartsch |
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