Is 91.175 enforced in the USA?

"Peter" wrote in message
...
This is the reg which prevents flying instrument approaches unless it
is a published one.

In the UK, this is not illegal (on G-reg aircraft). But then we don't
get the radar services here, etc.

well that is news to me! If you fly in IMC, IFR in uncontrolled airspace
then the IF rules specify ground clearances etc so descents have to be in
line with those. There is no problem setting up a descent to bring you under
cloud providing that whilst in cloud you remain 1000 feet above the highest
obstacle within five miles either side of your track and once through the
cloud are in VFR conditions.

Home made approaches will get you prosecuted by the CAA if they catch you
and the sanctions are far tougher than the FAA do. (For our US friends we
don't have administrative sanctions such as a suspension of certificate. we
end up in court invariably lose and have to pay the CAA's costs and have a
criminal record). If you have an accident be sure the insurance will not pay
either.

The proper procedure is to make an instrument approach at an airfield with a
published instrument approach and if possible continue VFR to the airfield
you want. If you cannot continue VFR then land and wait and worry about the
$200 landing costs after you have landed safely.

we have a number of airfield whose published approaches are in uncontrolled
airspace eg Southend, Cambridge, Oxford, Cranfield, Exeter, Doncaster as
well as those in Class D airspace (our class D is operated like US class B)

Flight conditions are either VMC or IMC. There is no such thing as MVFR.

even if it is OK to fly a G reg as you say, it is not Ok to fly an N reg
even if the N reg is in the UK it has to follow the FARs.

Chris wrote:
There is no problem setting up a descent to bring you under
cloud providing that whilst in cloud you remain 1000 feet above the highest
obstacle within five miles either side of your track and once through the
cloud are in VFR conditions.

The above cannot be done in the US. We can descend to the MEA (which
varies, ATC knows and will tell us), and if we are not in VFR
conditions, then we have to do an intrument approach. MEA's are higher
than 1000 AGL I can tell you that. MEA's are not published, but ATC has
a map of them. Radar coverage madatory for IFR flight (with one
exception, Class G). I don't honestly know what the rules are for
descent in Class G with no radar and no IFR clearance. I don't think
there are any. It doesn't happen much, almost all our IFR flight is
with radar coverage and ATC clearances etc.

Misposted a bit, radar coverage is not mandatory for IFR flight but ATC
clearance is and it USUALLY includes radar coverage.

Doug writes:

I don't honestly know what the rules are for
descent in Class G with no radar and no IFR clearance.

Class G is so close to the ground in most locations that you'll only
be in it quite briefly during descent (or take-off), anyway, which I
presume is why there aren't many rules concerning that airspace.
Anyone who cruises for an extended period in Class G on instruments is
either way out in the boondocks or very bold or both.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Doug wrote:


The above cannot be done in the US. We can descend to the MEA (which
varies, ATC knows and will tell us), and if we are not in VFR
conditions, then we have to do an intrument approach. MEA's are higher
than 1000 AGL I can tell you that. MEA's are not published, but ATC has
a map of them.

MEA's are published. MVA's are not published. A minimum instrument
altitude is always going to be 1000 above the terrain.


Radar coverage madatory for IFR flight (with one
exception, Class G).

Absolutely INCORRECT. Radar coverage is not mandatory for flight
in controlled airspace. An IFR clearance is, but radar is not
necessary nor sufficient for a clearance.

I don't honestly know what the rules are for
descent in Class G with no radar and no IFR clearance

Same as for controlled airspace 91.175 makes no distiction.

?. I don't think
there are any. It doesn't happen much, almost all our IFR flight is
with radar coverage and ATC clearances etc.

Nonsense. Many airports with approaches exist outside of controlled
airspace.

Doug wrote:
Misposted a bit, radar coverage is not mandatory for IFR flight but ATC
clearance is and it USUALLY includes radar coverage.

ATC clearance is mandatory for IFR flight IN CONTROLLED AIRSPACE.
It is neither necessary nor available outside.

Radar coverage while pretty pervasive isn't a requirement for nor
a guarantee of an IFR clearance availability. Nearly all flights
begin and end outside of radar coverage, some outside of controlled
airspace.

In controlled airspace, the MEA or MVA [radar] is
controlling unless you have a IAP.

In Class G, you can fly under IFR in IMC w/o a clearance,
but you can't climb into or fly sideways into any controlled
airspace w/o first getting a clearance.

You can descend for a landing then, | Chris wrote:
| There is no problem setting up a descent to bring you
under
| cloud providing that whilst in cloud you remain 1000 feet
above the highest
| obstacle within five miles either side of your track and
once through the
| cloud are in VFR conditions."
In mountainous areas the minimum is 2,000 feet and most
areas of Class G large enough and high enough in which to
fly IFR are in mountainous areas. The far western
Kansas/eastern Colorado area comes to mind, there are only a
handful of airports within those areas.

Alaska pilots are probably the ones who do this type of
flying on a regular basis.



"Doug" wrote in message
oups.com...
| Chris wrote:
| There is no problem setting up a descent to bring you
under
| cloud providing that whilst in cloud you remain 1000 feet
above the highest
| obstacle within five miles either side of your track and
once through the
| cloud are in VFR conditions.
|
| The above cannot be done in the US. We can descend to the
MEA (which
| varies, ATC knows and will tell us), and if we are not in
VFR
| conditions, then we have to do an intrument approach.
MEA's are higher
| than 1000 AGL I can tell you that. MEA's are not
published, but ATC has
| a map of them. Radar coverage madatory for IFR flight
(with one
| exception, Class G). I don't honestly know what the rules
are for
| descent in Class G with no radar and no IFR clearance. I
don't think
| there are any. It doesn't happen much, almost all our IFR
flight is
| with radar coverage and ATC clearances etc.
|

In controlled airspace. In uncontrolled airspace no ATC
service is available and neither is a clearance. But IFR is
possible using the big sky random principle.


§ 91.177 Minimum altitudes for IFR operations.
(a) Operation of aircraft at minimum altitudes. Except when
necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an
aircraft under IFR below-

(1) The applicable minimum altitudes prescribed in parts 95
and 97 of this chapter; or

(2) If no applicable minimum altitude is prescribed in those
parts-

(i) In the case of operations over an area designated as a
mountainous area in part 95, an altitude of 2,000 feet above
the highest obstacle within a horizontal distance of 4
nautical miles from the course to be flown; or

(ii) In any other case, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the
highest obstacle within a horizontal distance of 4 nautical
miles from the course to be flown.

However, if both a MEA and a MOCA are prescribed for a
particular route or route segment, a person may operate an
aircraft below the MEA down to, but not below, the MOCA,
when within 22 nautical miles of the VOR concerned (based on
the pilot's reasonable estimate of that distance).

(b) Climb. Climb to a higher minimum IFR altitude shall
begin immediately after passing the point beyond which that
minimum altitude applies, except that when ground
obstructions intervene, the point beyond which that higher
minimum altitude applies shall be crossed at or above the
applicable MCA.



91.179 IFR cruising altitude or flight level.

(a) In controlled airspace. Each person operating an
aircraft under IFR in level cruising flight in controlled
airspace shall maintain the altitude or flight level
assigned that aircraft by ATC. However, if the ATC clearance
assigns "VFR conditions on-top," that person shall maintain
an altitude or flight level as prescribed by §91.159.

(b) In uncontrolled airspace. Except while in a holding
pattern of 2 minutes or less or while turning, each person
operating an aircraft under IFR in level cruising flight in
uncontrolled airspace shall maintain an appropriate altitude
as follows:

(1) When operating below 18,000 feet MSL and-

(i) On a magnetic course of zero degrees through 179
degrees, any odd thousand foot MSL altitude (such as 3,000,
5,000, or 7,000); or

(ii) On a magnetic course of 180 degrees through 359
degrees, any even thousand foot MSL altitude (such as 2,000,
4,000, or 6,000).

(2) When operating at or above 18,000 feet MSL but below
flight level 290, and-

(i) On a magnetic course of zero degrees through 179
degrees, any odd flight level (such as 190, 210, or 230); or

(ii) On a magnetic course of 180 degrees through 359
degrees, any even flight level (such as 180, 200, or 220).

(3) When operating at flight level 290 and above in non-RVSM
airspace, and-

(i) On a magnetic course of zero degrees through 179
degrees, any flight level, at 4,000-foot intervals,
beginning at and including flight level 290 (such as flight
level 290, 330, or 370); or

(ii) On a magnetic course of 180 degrees through 359
degrees, any flight level, at 4,000-foot intervals,
beginning at and including flight level 310 (such as flight
level 310, 350, or 390).

(4) When operating at flight level 290 and above in airspace
designated as Reduced Vertical Separation Minimum (RVSM)
airspace and-

(i) On a magnetic course of zero degrees through 179
degrees, any odd flight level, at 2,000-foot intervals
beginning at and including flight level 290 (such as flight
level 290, 310, 330, 350, 370, 390, 410); or

(ii) On a magnetic course of 180 degrees through 359
degrees, any even flight level, at 2000-foot intervals
beginning at and including flight level 300 (such as 300,
320, 340, 360, 380, 400).

"Doug" wrote in message
ps.com...
| Misposted a bit, radar coverage is not mandatory for IFR
flight but ATC
| clearance is and it USUALLY includes radar coverage.
|

Ron Natalie wrote:

Doug wrote:


The above cannot be done in the US. We can descend to the MEA (which
varies, ATC knows and will tell us), and if we are not in VFR
conditions, then we have to do an intrument approach. MEA's are higher
than 1000 AGL I can tell you that. MEA's are not published, but ATC has
a map of them.


MEA's are published. MVA's are not published. A minimum instrument
altitude is always going to be 1000 above the terrain.


Change that to "at least 1,000 feet above obstacles." (2,000 in DMAs).


Nonsense. Many airports with approaches exist outside of controlled
airspace.

Cite an example, other than below 700 feet inside the FAF.

Jim Macklin wrote:

In controlled airspace, the MEA or MVA [radar] is
controlling unless you have a IAP.

In Class G, you can fly under IFR in IMC w/o a clearance,
but you can't climb into or fly sideways into any controlled
airspace w/o first getting a clearance.

Once a climb to level-off is completed under IFR in Class G airspace
then the aircraft must forever maintain the off-route altitude
requirements of 91.177 unless becoming VFR.