Options

We successfully fly our sailplanes by keeping our options open, don't
we? We keep an extra 300 feet in the pattern, just in case we hit a
bunch of sink, don't we? On the ridge we keep our speed up and always
have an escape route, don't we?

Why then, do we continue to use a finish gate that reduces our options
to just one? When we finish at 50 feet we must immediately exchange our
speed for altitude and hope there isn't somebody above us as we make a
beautiful climbing turn to down-wind. What if we suddenly see someone
else in the pattern? What if we see 3 other ships in the pattern? Been
there, done that! I abandoned any thought of putting it on the runway
and lined up on the taxiway, just to see one of the other ships make
the same decision and cut inside me. We rolled to a stop, not 15 feet
apart.

Over the years I have paid my competitive dues by volunteering to run
contests. I have been the Competition Director in 3 Nationals and a
Regionals in the last 30 years. I will not subject myself, the pilots
or the organization to the liability involved in using a finish gate
that I consider outmoded, unnecessary and unsafe. We have an option,
don't we?

JJ Sinclair

I think the idea is that you have a good idea what is going on in the
pattern before you finish. In most (all?) contests, the last leg of a task
*should* guarantee that all competitors are coming from the same direction,
therefore you have had 10/20/30/40+ miles with the same aircraft heading for
the finish.

In Australia we have had several midairs over the years, some with tragic
consequences, but I dont know of any that have occured at the finish line.
They all occur on task (generally in a thermal) where at least one of the 1
pilots would have had a good view of the other sailplane. When we fly, we
are all placing our life in the hands of other pilots.

I Agree that low, high speed finishes are not necessary. But they are FUN!
They are fun for the pilot, and fun for those on the ground. In fact, when
you think about it, they are really the only fun thing to see for the people
on the ground. They are also the only part of the sport with any marketing
potential. Non-pilots are not interested in seeing your new C302, PDA or
Winglets. They want action. Have a look at the interest the UKSmokin video
has generated. Watch it with non-gliding friends that have never seen a
glider before. See the look on their faces.

Nick.


wrote in message
oups.com...
We successfully fly our sailplanes by keeping our options open, don't
we? We keep an extra 300 feet in the pattern, just in case we hit a
bunch of sink, don't we? On the ridge we keep our speed up and always
have an escape route, don't we?

Why then, do we continue to use a finish gate that reduces our options
to just one? When we finish at 50 feet we must immediately exchange our
speed for altitude and hope there isn't somebody above us as we make a
beautiful climbing turn to down-wind. What if we suddenly see someone
else in the pattern? What if we see 3 other ships in the pattern? Been
there, done that! I abandoned any thought of putting it on the runway
and lined up on the taxiway, just to see one of the other ships make
the same decision and cut inside me. We rolled to a stop, not 15 feet
apart.

Over the years I have paid my competitive dues by volunteering to run
contests. I have been the Competition Director in 3 Nationals and a
Regionals in the last 30 years. I will not subject myself, the pilots
or the organization to the liability involved in using a finish gate
that I consider outmoded, unnecessary and unsafe. We have an option,
don't we?

JJ Sinclair

I guess the older we get the less "fun" we want to have, remember.
There are old pilots and bold pilots but no old and bold pilots.


Nick Gilbert wrote:
I think the idea is that you have a good idea what is going on in the

pattern before you finish. In most (all?) contests, the last leg of a
task
*should* guarantee that all competitors are coming from the same
direction,
therefore you have had 10/20/30/40+ miles with the same aircraft
heading for
the finish.

In Australia we have had several midairs over the years, some with
tragic
consequences, but I dont know of any that have occured at the finish
line.
They all occur on task (generally in a thermal) where at least one of
the 1
pilots would have had a good view of the other sailplane. When we
fly, we
are all placing our life in the hands of other pilots.

I Agree that low, high speed finishes are not necessary. But they are
FUN!
They are fun for the pilot, and fun for those on the ground. In fact,
when
you think about it, they are really the only fun thing to see for the
people
on the ground. They are also the only part of the sport with any
marketing
potential. Non-pilots are not interested in seeing your new C302, PDA
or
Winglets. They want action. Have a look at the interest the UKSmokin
video
has generated. Watch it with non-gliding friends that have never seen
a
glider before. See the look on their faces.

Nick.


wrote in message
oups.com...
We successfully fly our sailplanes by keeping our options open,
don't
we? We keep an extra 300 feet in the pattern, just in case we hit a
bunch of sink, don't we? On the ridge we keep our speed up and
always
have an escape route, don't we?

Why then, do we continue to use a finish gate that reduces our
options
to just one? When we finish at 50 feet we must immediately exchange
our
speed for altitude and hope there isn't somebody above us as we
make a
beautiful climbing turn to down-wind. What if we suddenly see
someone
else in the pattern? What if we see 3 other ships in the pattern?
Been
there, done that! I abandoned any thought of putting it on the
runway
and lined up on the taxiway, just to see one of the other ships
make
the same decision and cut inside me. We rolled to a stop, not 15
feet
apart.

Over the years I have paid my competitive dues by volunteering to
run
contests. I have been the Competition Director in 3 Nationals and a
Regionals in the last 30 years. I will not subject myself, the
pilots
or the organization to the liability involved in using a finish
gate
that I consider outmoded, unnecessary and unsafe. We have an
option,
don't we?

JJ Sinclair

I know a few who are old & bold.

I think it should be treated as any other aerobatic manouver. People should
be taught how to do it safely. Aerobatics are unecessary & dangerous. Should
we ban them?

Nick.

wrote in message
oups.com...
I guess the older we get the less "fun" we want to have, remember.
There are old pilots and bold pilots but no old and bold pilots.


Nick Gilbert wrote:
I think the idea is that you have a good idea what is going on in the

pattern before you finish. In most (all?) contests, the last leg of a
task
*should* guarantee that all competitors are coming from the same
direction,
therefore you have had 10/20/30/40+ miles with the same aircraft
heading for
the finish.

In Australia we have had several midairs over the years, some with
tragic
consequences, but I dont know of any that have occured at the finish
line.
They all occur on task (generally in a thermal) where at least one of
the 1
pilots would have had a good view of the other sailplane. When we
fly, we
are all placing our life in the hands of other pilots.

I Agree that low, high speed finishes are not necessary. But they are
FUN!
They are fun for the pilot, and fun for those on the ground. In fact,
when
you think about it, they are really the only fun thing to see for the
people
on the ground. They are also the only part of the sport with any
marketing
potential. Non-pilots are not interested in seeing your new C302, PDA
or
Winglets. They want action. Have a look at the interest the UKSmokin
video
has generated. Watch it with non-gliding friends that have never seen
a
glider before. See the look on their faces.

Nick.


wrote in message
oups.com...
We successfully fly our sailplanes by keeping our options open,
don't
we? We keep an extra 300 feet in the pattern, just in case we hit a
bunch of sink, don't we? On the ridge we keep our speed up and
always
have an escape route, don't we?

Why then, do we continue to use a finish gate that reduces our
options
to just one? When we finish at 50 feet we must immediately exchange
our
speed for altitude and hope there isn't somebody above us as we
make a
beautiful climbing turn to down-wind. What if we suddenly see
someone
else in the pattern? What if we see 3 other ships in the pattern?
Been
there, done that! I abandoned any thought of putting it on the
runway
and lined up on the taxiway, just to see one of the other ships
make
the same decision and cut inside me. We rolled to a stop, not 15
feet
apart.

Over the years I have paid my competitive dues by volunteering to
run
contests. I have been the Competition Director in 3 Nationals and a
Regionals in the last 30 years. I will not subject myself, the
pilots
or the organization to the liability involved in using a finish
gate
that I consider outmoded, unnecessary and unsafe. We have an
option,
don't we?

JJ Sinclair

JJ,

Of course we have options. It's called the Sports Class.

The fact that we have "so few" options in the finish gate is why it is
highly regulated. Finish direction. Radio contact. Procedures for
pattern entry and landing. And because we have so few options, it's
much easier to observe and predict the actions of other competent
pilots. As FM pointed out in another thread, it is much easier to
manage the environment and your own actions if you know where the
threats are coming from.

Yes, it is an anachronism. There is no need for a finish line. But I
would venture that it is less dynamic than a gaggle cylinder finish for
several reasons. First, when do you pull in a cylinder finish? When the
gps goes beep? How do I know mine will go beep in sequence with yours?
What if I delay my pull? What risk am I taking? What are the speed
differentials among the gliders in the gaggle? With a finish line, high
and low energy aircraft separate naturally. Will the pilot above and
behind me pushing to redline notice I'm in front flying at best L/D in
an attempt to avoid missing the bottom of the cyliner? And where is the
cylinder? Why, it's right there on my instrument panel! Next to the
altimeter, my other sore distraction.

When was the last time we wanted to ban gaggles for safety reasons? At
least in the finish I have energy. What are my options in the prestart
gaggle? I've always considered the finish gate a more manageable
environment that the top of a thermal with 30 other gliders, each pilot
with his own notion of how best to maintain altitude just below the top
of the cylinder while waiting for the "markers" to head out on course.

My theory is that ignorance shows more profoundly low and fast than
high and slow. Nice thing about ignorance, though. It's curable.

Thanks, JJ, for the opportunity to purge. It's been a rough week at
work.

Cheers and best wishes,

OC

wrote:
First, when do you pull in a cylinder finish?

How about when it's clear? There's no hurry, unlike being 50 feet off
the ground.

When the
gps goes beep? How do I know mine will go beep in sequence with yours?
What if I delay my pull?

I'm guessing you'd continue in the direction you are headed. Since you
are 500' in the air, this shouldn't cause any heartburn.

What risk am I taking? What are the speed
differentials among the gliders in the gaggle? With a finish line, high
and low energy aircraft separate naturally.

You'll have to explain how this happens. I've seen high and low speed
gliders close together at finish lines, and if the high speed glider is
lower than the others, watch out! He's eager to climb up to pattern
height and isn't going to coast along for another 1000' or so.

Will the pilot above and
behind me pushing to redline notice I'm in front flying at best L/D in
an attempt to avoid missing the bottom of the cyliner?

He's safe - he'll separate from you when he pulls up, and you aren't
going to pull up. That's a good situation. It seems unlikely he won't
see you ahead of him as he approaches. I've seen the same situation
finish gates, anyway.

And where is the
cylinder? Why, it's right there on my instrument panel! Next to the
altimeter, my other sore distraction.

I think if you can keep track of the other gliders zooming into a finish
line from various altitudes and angles, you'd be able to manage a finish
cylinder. At least, as you approach the cylinder, the gliders that will
enter the cylinder near you are all going the same direction you are,
which is often not true at a finish line.

When was the last time we wanted to ban gaggles for safety reasons?

I think most of us have wanted to elimanate *large* gaggles, but no one
has figured out a good way to do it.

My theory is that ignorance shows more profoundly low and fast than
high and slow.

If by ignorance, you mean "poor judgement", I agree with you, and I
think this is the theory behind the finish cylinders, isn't it?



--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

"If by ignorance, you mean "poor judgement", I agree with you, and I
think this is the theory behind the finish cylinders, isn't it?"

No... the cylinder is a placebo. Ignorance (and its primary effect -
poor judgement) are dangerous anywhere. The finish cylinder presents
the very same problems as the old high speed start gate. Next time you
see Rick Indrebo, ask him about separation of traffic.

I'll give you an example of a lack of situational awareness. You
responded to the following:

Will the pilot above and
behind me pushing to redline notice I'm in front flying at best L/D
in
an attempt to avoid missing the bottom of the cyliner?

"He's safe - he'll separate from you when he pulls up, and you aren't
going to pull up. That's a good situation. It seems unlikely he won't
see you ahead of him as he approaches. I've seen the same situation
finish gates, anyway"

Eric, he'll never pull up because he just flew through me several
hundred yards short of the gate. Been there. Seen it happen. Seen many
more come damn close. All your responses to my questions make
assumptions that aren't necessarily shared by all pilots. IE, the
cyclinder suffers the same problems that the finish gate does: it is
foiled by ignorance and resulting poor judgement.

The strongest arguement is that of density. A one mile radius circle
makes for alot more space than a 1 km line. Unless everyone is coming
home from the same turnpoint, in which case they are flying to the same
point, same altitude, and at a variety of speeds, with too much
attention on computers and altimeters. Implosion. And no regulation.
Performance information is on the panel, not outside.

The closest I've come to a midair in the past decade was at Hobbs two
years ago, in a 10-mile radius turn cylinder. I was distracted by
several gliders converging from about 45 degrees of arc to the very
extreme end of the turn area. I nearly hit someone below me as I
started my turn at the edge of the cylinder. I'm guessing at least half
the 15M nationals turned at that same point within about two minutes of
each other. So much for density management. At least we were all doing
about the same speed: 90 knots. So things happened pretty slowly. Let's
throw in some 60 and 140 knot traffic at the other end of the task,
just to keep things interesting.

As I said before, ignorance is much more obvious at low and fast. But
it's not any less dangerous high and slow. I think the number of pilots
who don't read the rules before competing is an indication of where the
problems lie. If a pilot is unwilling to take two hours to read the
rules, then he probably hasn't given much thought to the environment
he'll be flying in. This equals IGNORANCE.

Oh, you just reminded me of a relite I had at Chester, SC one year.
Eleven of us were holding on in a dying thermal a mere 500 feet above
the runway, when, fizzle... no more thermal. All gliders landed
together, all full of water, and all within dozens of feet of each
other. A grand exhibition of a contractor's dozen executing some ad hoc
formation flying. It could have been a mess... but it wasn't. No radio
chatter. No whining. No accusations. Just an orderly arrival.

There's no reason the finish gate can't be equally well-mannered. The
key, then, now, and always, is competence. Not genius. Not the right
stuff. Just simple competence. Too slow, break off and land. Too high?
Don't be so conservative on the next final glide. Not sure which way to
go through the finish gate? Ask. Not sure you have enough energy to
clear the finish line and execute a 180? Key the mike, say you're
landing straight ahead, and do it. Never thought about this stuff
before? My-oh-my... what else haven't you thought about?

OC

This has been fun. God I love the odd dose of rancour. I'm looking
forward to the day I turn full curmudgeon and jump, with equal rancour,
to the other side of this issue!

JJ, looking forward to the 15m nats in Montague next year. Will you
have a glider?

I think it should be treated as any other aerobatic
manouver.


Ahhh, hmmm....let's see if I understand this concept...

Unsynchronized group aerobatics done at low level and
high speed...in the landing pattern of an open airport....by
fatigued pilots.

Thanks but no thanks.

I never said it was for everyone....But those who wish to do it shouldnt be
stopped by those who dont.

Nick.

"Stewart Kissel" wrote in
message ...


I think it should be treated as any other aerobatic
manouver.


Ahhh, hmmm....let's see if I understand this concept...

Unsynchronized group aerobatics done at low level and
high speed...in the landing pattern of an open airport....by
fatigued pilots.

Thanks but no thanks.