Why is ADF or Radar Required on MFD ILS RWY 32 Approach Plate?

Does anyone know why the Mansfield OH MFD ILS RWY 32 approach plate has ADF
or Radar Required written on it?

There is speculation on another forum that ADF is required to establish the
FAF for the localizer approach, but I argued that it is not required for the
ILS approach, since intercept of the glideslope is the "FAF" for the ILS
approach. The approaches we have in FL are similar but do not have ADF or
Radar Required written on them.

I can understand that without radar vectors, setting up for the ILS approach
would require ADF so that one overflies the NDB outbound, stays within ten
miles, and then comes back to intercept the glideslope; therefore, radar
vectors or ADF would be required for this approach. But this is obvious on
other approach plates without spelling it out. Why is this verbiage written
on this approach plate?

Thanks.

Simon Ramirez

Simon,

It may be for the missed, or it may be required to provide a fix where the
altimeter can be checked. In the case of my home 'drome, DME is required
because there are no VORs positioned sufficiently to provide a crossing radial
for that identification. You need that ID to fly the localizer only, as well as
to cross check the altimeter and glideslope when on the ILS. A marker beacon
will also suffice, but recently the FAA has been changing the ILS approaches so
that the intercepts are at even thousands of feet, and so the marker beacons are
no longer in the right place.

"S. Ramirez" wrote:

Does anyone know why the Mansfield OH MFD ILS RWY 32 approach plate has ADF
or Radar Required written on it?

There is speculation on another forum that ADF is required to establish the
FAF for the localizer approach, but I argued that it is not required for the
ILS approach, since intercept of the glideslope is the "FAF" for the ILS
approach. The approaches we have in FL are similar but do not have ADF or
Radar Required written on them.

I can understand that without radar vectors, setting up for the ILS approach
would require ADF so that one overflies the NDB outbound, stays within ten
miles, and then comes back to intercept the glideslope; therefore, radar
vectors or ADF would be required for this approach. But this is obvious on
other approach plates without spelling it out. Why is this verbiage written
on this approach plate?

Thanks.

Simon Ramirez

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

It appears to me needed to find the IAF if radar service is not available...

"Ray Andraka" wrote in message
...
Simon,

It may be for the missed, or it may be required to provide a fix where the
altimeter can be checked. In the case of my home 'drome, DME is required
because there are no VORs positioned sufficiently to provide a crossing
radial
for that identification. You need that ID to fly the localizer only, as
well as
to cross check the altimeter and glideslope when on the ILS. A marker
beacon
will also suffice, but recently the FAA has been changing the ILS
approaches so
that the intercepts are at even thousands of feet, and so the marker
beacons are
no longer in the right place.

"S. Ramirez" wrote:

Does anyone know why the Mansfield OH MFD ILS RWY 32 approach plate has
ADF
or Radar Required written on it?

There is speculation on another forum that ADF is required to establish
the
FAF for the localizer approach, but I argued that it is not required for
the
ILS approach, since intercept of the glideslope is the "FAF" for the ILS
approach. The approaches we have in FL are similar but do not have ADF
or
Radar Required written on them.

I can understand that without radar vectors, setting up for the ILS
approach
would require ADF so that one overflies the NDB outbound, stays within
ten
miles, and then comes back to intercept the glideslope; therefore, radar
vectors or ADF would be required for this approach. But this is obvious
on
other approach plates without spelling it out. Why is this verbiage
written
on this approach plate?

Thanks.

Simon Ramirez

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

"S. Ramirez" wrote in message
m...

Does anyone know why the Mansfield OH MFD ILS RWY 32
approach plate has ADF or Radar Required written on it?


Sure. It's because the person procedure that developed or reviewed the
procedure believed ADF or approach radar was required to fly the approach.



I can understand that without radar vectors, setting up for the ILS
approach would require ADF so that one overflies the NDB outbound, stays
within ten miles, and then comes back to intercept the glideslope;
therefore, radar vectors or ADF would be required for this approach.


You don't need ADF or radar to fly this approach. There's a feeder route
from MFD and the marker beacon works just as well as the NDB to identify
MANNS.



But this is obvious on other approach plates without spelling it
out. Why is this verbiage written
on this approach plate?


It's an error.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
nk.net...

Sure. It's because the person procedure that developed or reviewed
the procedure believed ADF or approach radar was required to fly the
approach.


Oops. That should have been, "It's because the person that developed or
reviewed the procedure believed ADF or approach radar was required to fly
the approach."

There's a feeder route from MFD and the marker beacon works just as
well

There are some vague suggestions in FAA literature that marker beacons
should only be used to determine a fix when flying the course they're
associated with, such as the localizer.

See my previous message, it is not necessarily an error. It is part of
the developed procedure. It was in my case.

Ross

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:



But this is obvious on other approach plates without spelling it
out. Why is this verbiage written
on this approach plate?


It's an error.

Another possible reason for requiring the ADF or Radar is the fact
that the min safe altitude is defined off the compass locator. An ADF
(along with your compass/DG) would allow you to determine if you were
north or south of the locator. The localizer and marker would only
tell you when you were at the fix.

Tim Witt wrote:

Another possible reason for requiring the ADF or Radar is the fact
that the min safe altitude is defined off the compass locator. An ADF
(along with your compass/DG) would allow you to determine if you were
north or south of the locator. The localizer and marker would only
tell you when you were at the fix.

No way. The MSAs are not part of the regulatory or operational scheme for
IAPs in the United States.

In a nonradar environment you will need to start the approach at the
IAF, which in this case is the NDB station. I suspect that in your
other examples you may have multiple IAF's. If one of the IAF's is not
an NDB, then you would not need an ADF.





"S. Ramirez" wrote in message om...
Does anyone know why the Mansfield OH MFD ILS RWY 32 approach plate has ADF
or Radar Required written on it?

There is speculation on another forum that ADF is required to establish the
FAF for the localizer approach, but I argued that it is not required for the
ILS approach, since intercept of the glideslope is the "FAF" for the ILS
approach. The approaches we have in FL are similar but do not have ADF or
Radar Required written on them.

I can understand that without radar vectors, setting up for the ILS approach
would require ADF so that one overflies the NDB outbound, stays within ten
miles, and then comes back to intercept the glideslope; therefore, radar
vectors or ADF would be required for this approach. But this is obvious on
other approach plates without spelling it out. Why is this verbiage written
on this approach plate?

Thanks.

Simon Ramirez