Getting an IFR Clearance

Fellow Aviators,

I was flying on Tuesday from N14 in NJ to Baltimore-Washington Airport. I
was going IFR because of the Washington ADIZ.

When I called McGuire Approach for my clearance I was given the route and
all information except my release, void and advise times. They said to call
back in 10 minutes for release.

Ok...so I taxi down to the runway, do my run-up and pre-takeoff checks and
wait the remaining time twiddling my thumbs for the full 10 minutes (hobbs
running the whole time of course). I call in and they tell me that there
will be another delay and to call back in 10 more minutes.

I could have shut the engine down and waited, but I was also on a tight
schedule as I had to be back to work at 3:00 pm and the current time was
about 10:45 am.

I said to my passenger, "we're gonna take off VFR and fly the filed route at
4,500 feet and then request opening the IFR flight plan in the air. After I
said this I thought to myself, I bet this move will tick-off the controller
and he'll end up giving me some random circuitous vectors just to show me
who's boss.

Sure enough as soon as I got leveled off on the first airway (V16) I called
approach and requested my IFR flight plan be activated. The response was,
"...I can't activate you're flight plan unless you fly 5 miles northeast..."
Of course I was headed southwest. I turned around and flew about 8 miles
before I again asked for my plan to be opened. I was told to standby and
after another 2 minutes finally got my plan activated.

Now, my question is: If I wasn't in his airspace (which I think I was)
couldn't he have just told me to continue and contact Atlantic City approach
to open my plan? Do you think I was being "paid back" for circumventing
ATC's authority?

Kobra

Kobra writes:

Sure enough as soon as I got leveled off on the first airway (V16) I called
approach and requested my IFR flight plan be activated. The response was,
"...I can't activate you're flight plan unless you fly 5 miles northeast..."
Of course I was headed southwest. I turned around and flew about 8 miles
before I again asked for my plan to be opened. I was told to standby and
after another 2 minutes finally got my plan activated.

Now, my question is: If I wasn't in his airspace (which I think I was)
couldn't he have just told me to continue and contact Atlantic City approach
to open my plan? Do you think I was being "paid back" for circumventing
ATC's authority?

Perhaps your originally planned route caused a problem for traffic, which is
why ATC had you waiting so long. Then, when you took off VFR and trying to
activate the plan, the same traffic issue arose, so he had to turn you down
unless you could go a different way that he could clear (which he probably
would have cleared you for if you had filed it originally, too).

Why assume that the controller is trying to get back at you? You may have
wanted a route that he couldn't easily accommodate immediately, so whether you
were on the ground or in the air, you'd have to wait for that route.

Why assume that the controller is trying to get back at you? You may have
wanted a route that he couldn't easily accommodate immediately, so whether
you
were on the ground or in the air, you'd have to wait for that route.

Because when you depart VFR you are at an altitude that does not conflict
with IFR traffic and therefore he could have allowed me to continue on
course under VFR flight following until there was no conflict and then
either activated my flight plan or handed me off to the next controller if
he couldn't open it. Further, when McGuire releases you they always clear
you northeast to RBV VOR first, then V276, then DIXIE intersection and THEN
V16 southwest bound. Therefore, when I called up in the air, I was in a
completely different area at a completely different time then if they had
released me when requested. The chances of having a conflict there as well
is possible, but I would say not probable.

Kobra

On Sep 24, 4:31*pm, "Kobra" wrote:
*The chances of having a conflict there as well
is possible, but I would say not probable.

Kobra

Don't feed the troll Kobra. Mx doesn't know the IFR system IN THE
REAL WORLD, only VATSIM and I'd hate for this group get polluted like
RAS and RAP. As you know flying a real airplane is quite different
then sitting front of a desktop computer simming

To answer your question, could be many factors that you raise, but
maybe a call to tracon may give you some enlightment?

It does seem odd that ATC would ask for a complete course reversal at
a VFR altitude. Did you gandar at Flight Aware to see what your track
look like in relation to your next fix and airway?

Like you, when I am up even remotely close to the ADIZ, IFR is the way
to go :-))

It does seem odd that ATC would ask for a complete course reversal at
a VFR altitude. Did you gandar at Flight Aware to see what your track
look like in relation to your next fix and airway?

Atlieb,

I just went to flight aware and unfortunately they only show my return trip.
I cancelled 3/4 the way home to get a direct route to N14.

Kobra

On Sep 24, 8:34*pm, "Kobra" wrote:

I just went to flight aware and unfortunately they only show my return trip.
I cancelled 3/4 the way home to get a direct route to N14.

Kobra

Dang,

I thought maybe the flight track may help explain the course reversal,
more like set you up for intercepting the next fix would have been my
guess.

Oh well, nothing gained, nothing lost but the adventure, and heck, you
left terra firma!

writes:

Mx doesn't know the IFR system IN THE
REAL WORLD, only VATSIM and I'd hate for this group get polluted like
RAS and RAP.

What are the relevant differences? And what makes you think that I don't know
the IFR system of the real world? It's not top secret, after all.

As you know flying a real airplane is quite different
then sitting front of a desktop computer simming

But flying an airplane and following established, published procedures are two
different things.

Most pilots don't know anything about IFR, either.

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
writes:

Mx doesn't know the IFR system IN THE
REAL WORLD, only VATSIM and I'd hate for this group get polluted like
RAS and RAP.

What are the relevant differences? And what makes you think that I don't
know
the IFR system of the real world? It's not top secret, after all.

You don't know the IFR system of the real world because you obviously have
no experience with it. If you can't understand the difference between
knowledge and experience, there's really no point in evaluating your input
because it would be like discussing lovemaking with someone who had only
read a book on the subject or had only participated online (which is a
strong possibility in your case also).

"Kobra" wrote in message
. ..
Fellow Aviators,

I was flying on Tuesday from N14 in NJ to Baltimore-Washington Airport. I
was going IFR because of the Washington ADIZ.

When I called McGuire Approach for my clearance I was given the route and
all information except my release, void and advise times. They said to
call back in 10 minutes for release.

Ok...so I taxi down to the runway, do my run-up and pre-takeoff checks and
wait the remaining time twiddling my thumbs for the full 10 minutes (hobbs
running the whole time of course). I call in and they tell me that there
will be another delay and to call back in 10 more minutes.

I could have shut the engine down and waited, but I was also on a tight
schedule as I had to be back to work at 3:00 pm and the current time was
about 10:45 am.

I said to my passenger, "we're gonna take off VFR and fly the filed route
at 4,500 feet and then request opening the IFR flight plan in the air.
After I said this I thought to myself, I bet this move will tick-off the
controller and he'll end up giving me some random circuitous vectors just
to show me who's boss.

Sure enough as soon as I got leveled off on the first airway (V16) I
called approach and requested my IFR flight plan be activated. The
response was, "...I can't activate you're flight plan unless you fly 5
miles northeast..." Of course I was headed southwest. I turned around and
flew about 8 miles before I again asked for my plan to be opened. I was
told to standby and after another 2 minutes finally got my plan activated.

Now, my question is: If I wasn't in his airspace (which I think I was)
couldn't he have just told me to continue and contact Atlantic City
approach to open my plan? Do you think I was being "paid back" for
circumventing ATC's authority?

I doubt it. It's certainly not unheard of for a ****ed off ATCer to issue
penalty vectors, but it doesn't happen that often. Had he wanted to
penalize you it would have been much easier just to tell you unable to your
pop-up and go **** off. Some DOD approach controls don't have the same
hand-off capability as FAA facilities so you may have been too close to the
edge of his airspace to get your flight plan going and manually coordinate
with the next facility. It also doesn't take too much traffic before DOD
facilities are overloaded.

I suspect that you were either out of, or aboiut to be out of, his airspace.
Thus " I can not clear you ........" (until you fly northeast to get back in
my airspace). I would hope that a controller would have said 'unable -
contact approach on xxx.yy for your clearance'.

Or perhaps you could have proposed to mcGuire that you continue VFR and open
with the next controller


"Kobra" wrote in message
. ..
Fellow Aviators,

I was flying on Tuesday from N14 in NJ to Baltimore-Washington Airport. I
was going IFR because of the Washington ADIZ.

When I called McGuire Approach for my clearance I was given the route and
all information except my release, void and advise times. They said to
call back in 10 minutes for release.

Ok...so I taxi down to the runway, do my run-up and pre-takeoff checks and
wait the remaining time twiddling my thumbs for the full 10 minutes (hobbs
running the whole time of course). I call in and they tell me that there
will be another delay and to call back in 10 more minutes.

I could have shut the engine down and waited, but I was also on a tight
schedule as I had to be back to work at 3:00 pm and the current time was
about 10:45 am.

I said to my passenger, "we're gonna take off VFR and fly the filed route
at 4,500 feet and then request opening the IFR flight plan in the air.
After I said this I thought to myself, I bet this move will tick-off the
controller and he'll end up giving me some random circuitous vectors just
to show me who's boss.

Sure enough as soon as I got leveled off on the first airway (V16) I
called approach and requested my IFR flight plan be activated. The
response was, "...I can't activate you're flight plan unless you fly 5
miles northeast..." Of course I was headed southwest. I turned around and
flew about 8 miles before I again asked for my plan to be opened. I was
told to standby and after another 2 minutes finally got my plan activated.

Now, my question is: If I wasn't in his airspace (which I think I was)
couldn't he have just told me to continue and contact Atlantic City
approach to open my plan? Do you think I was being "paid back" for
circumventing ATC's authority?

Kobra