Is a "yellow-tag" really necessary?

any reputable mechanic will check the part numbers to make sure it is an
"approved replacement"..

ask your buddy to go through his logbooks and get the yellow tag

BT

"Andre" wrote in message
m...
Stu Gotts wrote in message
. ..
On 7 Mar 2004 01:01:09 -0800, (Andre) wrote:

Ok, let's say my TSO'd Attitude Indicator (AI) in my Cherokee goes
belly-up, and my friend just happens to have one he removed from his
machine a month ago as part of a complete panel upgrade. We both KNOW
the thing works fine and would solve my problem.

What's the ramifications of just having it installed in my Cherokee?
Is it OK without a yellow-tag? If not, why not? Isn't there any
discretion on the the part of the mechanic to install a part he has
observed as functional in one airplane and put it directly in another?

I hear if you ask an instrument shop to check it out and yellow-tag
it, they will often refuse unless you pay them to do a COMPLETE
OVERHAUL. Is that true?

If the part is a certified one (doesn't have to be TSO'd) and is
listed as a direct replacement, all that is necessary is a proper log
book entry.

An instrument shop can inspect and return the part to service "yellow
tagged". They would probably insist of tweaking it which will cost
you the same as having it o/h'd. If it works, put it in. When it
dies, replace it.


Stu,

Thanks to you and the others for your post. What I need to find out
is what to tell the mechanic when I hand it to him (with no
yellow-tag).

It sounds like all I have to say is that the gyro is listed as a
direct replacement (I assume a Sigma-Tek 5000B-36 IS a direct
replacement), that it is in working condition, so JUST INSTALL it and
make a logbook entry.................please...

Does that sound correct?

By the way, where WOULD I find a list of approved replacement attitude
indicators for an Arrow II?

Andre

"BTIZ" wrote in message news:lqT2c.17428$id3.8997@fed1read01...
any reputable mechanic will check the part numbers to make sure it is an
"approved replacement"..

ask your buddy to go through his logbooks and get the yellow tag

BT

"Andre" wrote in message
m...
Stu Gotts wrote in message
. ..
On 7 Mar 2004 01:01:09 -0800, (Andre) wrote:

Ok, let's say my TSO'd Attitude Indicator (AI) in my Cherokee goes
belly-up, and my friend just happens to have one he removed from his
machine a month ago as part of a complete panel upgrade. We both KNOW
the thing works fine and would solve my problem.

What's the ramifications of just having it installed in my Cherokee?
Is it OK without a yellow-tag? If not, why not? Isn't there any
discretion on the the part of the mechanic to install a part he has
observed as functional in one airplane and put it directly in another?

I hear if you ask an instrument shop to check it out and yellow-tag
it, they will often refuse unless you pay them to do a COMPLETE
OVERHAUL. Is that true?

If the part is a certified one (doesn't have to be TSO'd) and is
listed as a direct replacement, all that is necessary is a proper log
book entry.

An instrument shop can inspect and return the part to service "yellow
tagged". They would probably insist of tweaking it which will cost
you the same as having it o/h'd. If it works, put it in. When it
dies, replace it.


Stu,

Thanks to you and the others for your post. What I need to find out
is what to tell the mechanic when I hand it to him (with no
yellow-tag).

It sounds like all I have to say is that the gyro is listed as a
direct replacement (I assume a Sigma-Tek 5000B-36 IS a direct
replacement), that it is in working condition, so JUST INSTALL it and
make a logbook entry.................please...

Does that sound correct?

By the way, where WOULD I find a list of approved replacement attitude
indicators for an Arrow II?

Andre


BT,

In the REAL story, this instrument was bought from a guy who acquired
it as part of a fairly complete RV-6 homebuilt package but didn't need
either the AI or the DG, so he's selling them to me. Unless the guy
HE got the RV-6 package from has a yellow-tag (or manf'r tag), I doubt
I'll be able to acquire one. I WILL try and track down the guy he got
it from, anyways, on the outside chance he might have something
although it's been over a year.

I was just hoping to avoid the hassle and get my mechanic to install
the thing, and needed some advice on what resistance I might get from
him.

Andre

A mechanic who understands how the real world works is worth his weight in
unicorn dung. Stop looking for a yellow tag and start looking for a real
mechanic as opposed to a paper shuffler.

Jim


(Andre)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:


-I was just hoping to avoid the hassle and get my mechanic to install
-the thing, and needed some advice on what resistance I might get from
-him.
-
-Andre

Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

Jim,

As a clearly well respected expert on both maintenance procedures, AND
unicorn dung, I want you to know that my primary intention in STARTING
this posting was EXACTLY to find out HOW to tell a REAL mechanic FROM
a paper-shuffler. I need guys like you to tell me what a REAL
mechanic SHOULD do when asked to put in an AI under the circumstances
outlined. Armed with THAT information, I will be able to call him on
his drible (if that's what I get) when I approach him next week and
hand him the AI to install. But FIRST, I need some guidance on what's
drible, and what's not. That's where I could use your very specific
help.

So, could YOU please tell me what I should expect from my mechanic,
under the circumstances outlined, if he WERE a REAL mechanic? The
more specific the better...

Thanking you in advance...

Andre



Jim Weir wrote in message . ..
A mechanic who understands how the real world works is worth his weight in
unicorn dung. Stop looking for a yellow tag and start looking for a real
mechanic as opposed to a paper shuffler.

Jim


(Andre)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:


-I was just hoping to avoid the hassle and get my mechanic to install
-the thing, and needed some advice on what resistance I might get from
-him.
-
-Andre

Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

Have you got your own 3/8" wrench and phillips screwdrivers??? And can you ask
your friendly mechanic to look at something that may have been installed without
paperwork to see if it was done properly?

As somebody said, we flying these single engine machines do NOT have a serial
number paper trail in the logbook back to the day it left the factory.

Look in your "factory installed" documentation. I defy you to tell me the
model/serial that your airplane left the factory with.

Jim


(Andre)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-Jim,
-
-As a clearly well respected expert on both maintenance procedures, AND
-unicorn dung


Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

Jim,

As a clearly well respected expert on both maintenance procedures, AND
unicorn dung, I want you to know that my primary intention in STARTING
this posting was EXACTLY to find out HOW to tell a REAL mechanic FROM
a paper-shuffler. I need guys like you to tell me what a REAL
mechanic SHOULD do when asked to put in an AI under the circumstances
outlined. Armed with THAT information, I will be able to call him on
his drible (if that's what I get) when I approach him next week and
hand him the AI to install. But FIRST, I need some guidance on what's
drible, and what's not. That's where I could use your very specific
help.

So, could YOU please tell me what I should expect from my mechanic,
under the circumstances outlined, if he WERE a REAL mechanic? The
more specific the better...

Thanking you in advance...

Andre



Jim Weir wrote in message . ..
A mechanic who understands how the real world works is worth his weight in
unicorn dung. Stop looking for a yellow tag and start looking for a real
mechanic as opposed to a paper shuffler.

Jim


(Andre)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:


-I was just hoping to avoid the hassle and get my mechanic to install
-the thing, and needed some advice on what resistance I might get from
-him.
-
-Andre

Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

Jim Weir wrote in message . ..
A mechanic who understands how the real world works is worth his weight in
unicorn dung. Stop looking for a yellow tag and start looking for a real
mechanic as opposed to a paper shuffler.
snip

snip

Methinks you might be doing my brethren (none of which would refer to
themselves as "real" mechanics) and Mr. Andre a slight dis-service.

As there are no "real mechanics" stepping forward, I guess you will
have to settle for the self-proclaimed wart on the ass that makes up
GA maintenance discussion on Usenet.

As Mr. Weir is not doubt aware, a "yellow tag" is meaningless unless
it contains the information required to approve equipment for return
to service after maintenance, overhaul or alteration. The format (or
it's color) is not relevant.

It's not likely for there to be a "service release" for Mr. Andre's
gyro, if it was originally purchased new, nor would one be required if
it has never been repaired, overhauled, or altered. If it was
purchased new, all that would be found would be some type of
certificate of origin/compliance. This can consist of as little as a
copy of the original invoice/packing list, or more formally an FAA
8130 or a JAA Form One.

If one is referring to a "real mechanic", I would like to think that
some mention of professional ethics should be made. Unfortunately,
ethics don't seem to be very fashionable anymore.

A "real mechanic" who doesn't think that following the rules of
his/her profession is important, and cannot (or will not) keep up with
the "paper pushing" aspects of it is not likely to take the best care
possible of the GA owner/pilot customer.

The harsh reality of life in GA is that a typical FAA representative
has no clue in the world what an "airworthy"
aircraft/engine/propeller/accessory looks like, but you can bet your
ass he/she knows at least the bare minimum to look for in regard to
maintenance records. Granted, the odds are extremely slim, but if
there is one aspect of GA that will get an owner/pilot in trouble with
the Federales, it is going to be "paper" that has been improperly
"pushed".

If Mr. Andre walked in off the ramp as a new customer with a attitude
gyro in his hand and asked me to install it, I'd want to see some
paperwork (as described above). Lacking documentation, I would not
install it. (emphasis on the period) I would very graciously explain
the requirements of the CFR, and suggest that he try to obtain some
scrap of paperwork for me to "push".

I could legally install it under the CFR, if I was willing to
personally certify the condition of the part. So lets say I install
the part, attest to same in the maintenance records, and Mr. Andre
decides to spin out the clouds, or fly into a mountain. Please don't
tell me the odds on this, I'm quite familiar with them. Running out of
gas, VFR pilot/aircraft continuing flight into IMC, and CFIT seem to
stay right up there on the list of not-so-inventive ways that pilots
commit suicide year-after-year-after-year.

While it's also not likely that Mr. Andre's estate will sue me (given
my limited means) it is likely that my name will on the list of
"possibles", along with the manufacturer of every other piece of his
aircraft. Especially if I'm stupid enuff to put my name and number in
the maintenance records attesting to the condition of a primary flight
instrument.

That's a pretty big committment for a "real mechanic" to make for an
hour's worth of labor. Especially since in these times, liability
insurance for a "real mechanic" is pretty much non-existent.

Now if Mr. Andre was a current customer, and had been observed to show
at least some sound judgement in flying/maintenance matters, AND
wasn't a pain-in-the-ass, I still wouldn't install his gyro, for all
the same reasons stated above. Comes back to the ethics thing,
primarily.

However, if he asked me to borrow a couple tools, or maybe take a peek
at it after it mysteriously appeared in his instrument panel, I would
be glad to give him some assistance. Assuming I fit into the "real
mechanic" category, I sure as hell wouldn't whine about the gyro at
the next annual, either.

Finally, in regards to Mr. Weir's statement concerning a mechanic's
"worth", in my geographic location, with the local customer base, a
"real" GA "mechanic" is worth about $15-$20 an hour, which
unfortunately is exactly what clueless dip-****s (unicorn or
otherwise) in the same industry are worth.

The following attitude, experienced on a daily basis:

(Andre)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-I was just hoping to avoid the hassle and get my mechanic to install
-the thing, and needed some advice on what resistance I might get from
-him.

paired with the fact that I couldn't afford much unicorn dung, are the
primary reasons that I no longer work in GA.

Regards;

TC

Toe...

I really wasn't intending to get into a piffing match with you. I respect your
time in grade and proficiency in this game too much for that. It is just that
most airplane owners live in mortal fear that some magical piece of paper makes
an airplane part airworthy. You and I know that is not true.

The most telling part of your argument is that you would look the installation
of a "magically installed" part and give your verbal opinion as to whether the
installation looked like airplane. Nor would you bitch the part on the next
annual. That was all I was trying to tell the guy...loosen up and do what is
RIGHT rather that what is ROTE.

Jim



)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-Jim Weir wrote in message
. ..
- A mechanic who understands how the real world works is worth his weight in
- unicorn dung. Stop looking for a yellow tag and start looking for a real
- mechanic as opposed to a paper shuffler.
-snip
-
-snip
-
-Methinks you might be doing my brethren (none of which would refer to
-themselves as "real" mechanics) and Mr. Andre a slight dis-service.
-
-As there are no "real mechanics" stepping forward, I guess you will
-have to settle for the self-proclaimed wart on the ass that makes up
-GA maintenance discussion on Usenet.
Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

bottom line... it's up to your mech..

BT

"Andre" wrote in message
om...
"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:lqT2c.17428$id3.8997@fed1read01...
any reputable mechanic will check the part numbers to make sure it is an
"approved replacement"..

ask your buddy to go through his logbooks and get the yellow tag

BT

"Andre" wrote in message
m...
Stu Gotts wrote in message
. ..
On 7 Mar 2004 01:01:09 -0800, (Andre) wrote:

Ok, let's say my TSO'd Attitude Indicator (AI) in my Cherokee goes
belly-up, and my friend just happens to have one he removed from
his
machine a month ago as part of a complete panel upgrade. We both
KNOW
the thing works fine and would solve my problem.

What's the ramifications of just having it installed in my
Cherokee?
Is it OK without a yellow-tag? If not, why not? Isn't there any
discretion on the the part of the mechanic to install a part he has
observed as functional in one airplane and put it directly in
another?

I hear if you ask an instrument shop to check it out and yellow-tag
it, they will often refuse unless you pay them to do a COMPLETE
OVERHAUL. Is that true?

If the part is a certified one (doesn't have to be TSO'd) and is
listed as a direct replacement, all that is necessary is a proper
log
book entry.

An instrument shop can inspect and return the part to service
"yellow
tagged". They would probably insist of tweaking it which will cost
you the same as having it o/h'd. If it works, put it in. When it
dies, replace it.


Stu,

Thanks to you and the others for your post. What I need to find out
is what to tell the mechanic when I hand it to him (with no
yellow-tag).

It sounds like all I have to say is that the gyro is listed as a
direct replacement (I assume a Sigma-Tek 5000B-36 IS a direct
replacement), that it is in working condition, so JUST INSTALL it and
make a logbook entry.................please...

Does that sound correct?

By the way, where WOULD I find a list of approved replacement attitude
indicators for an Arrow II?

Andre


BT,

In the REAL story, this instrument was bought from a guy who acquired
it as part of a fairly complete RV-6 homebuilt package but didn't need
either the AI or the DG, so he's selling them to me. Unless the guy
HE got the RV-6 package from has a yellow-tag (or manf'r tag), I doubt
I'll be able to acquire one. I WILL try and track down the guy he got
it from, anyways, on the outside chance he might have something
although it's been over a year.

I was just hoping to avoid the hassle and get my mechanic to install
the thing, and needed some advice on what resistance I might get from
him.

Andre