Rogue IFR

David Gunter wrote:

I do have a question: What would happen if this rogue pilot who is
flying VFR in solid IMC were to land at a towered airport such as we
have in Santa Fe?

Without talking to the tower? Sounds like the tower controller will
have some paperwork to do.


SAF has no radar but the controller is in front of the
windows and knows for certain what the weather is like around the airport.

Around the airport is irrelavant. At the airport is the only thing that
matters.



If this pilot were to call in to request a landing would the controller
be obligated to report this?

The controller would say "the field is IFR say intentions." This is the
pilots warning that you can't land VFR, in case you somehow didn't get
the weather. If he comes back and says "I want to land." then I get to
treat him like the idiot he is. He will not get a landing clearance.
He will have to ask for either a SVFR or an instrument clearance. I have
never seen this situation happen at a towered field because these guys
know this is what happens. So they stick to the uncontrolled fields.

Newps wrote in message news:OXDmb.21587$mZ5.80201@attbi_s54...

The controller would say "the field is IFR say intentions." This is the
pilots warning that you can't land VFR, in case you somehow didn't get
the weather. If he comes back and says "I want to land." then I get to
treat him like the idiot he is.

Y'know, I sure hope this isn't exactly your SOP.

I was flying along, minding my own business VFR over a layer
one day, getting flight following from ZKC while heading for
southern MO. The layer was already broken, and the ASOS at
our destination airport was reporting clear so I wasn't too
worried about getting down.

I was listening to the female controller work a couple flights
over by Lake of the Ozarks. One plane, VFR evidently, was
asking for info about VFR wx conditions in sort of a strange way.
Suddenly a male voice took over and asked the pilot "say
your conditions of flight" then directly "are you IMC?" He
was very gentle and non-judgemental and provided a vector towards
a nearby airport, then rerouted a couple of IFR planes a bit.

Evidently it was a trainee controller working a pilot who'd
blundered into clouds and was trying to get out. The female
controller had kind of been "treating him like an idiot" but
something clued her superviser to a different possibility.
After a couple minutes the female voice took back over,
sounding a little flustered.

So, someone calls up and says "I want to land" when you've
told him the field is IFR. Now maybe he's a scofflaw idiot.

But maybe he's a relatively honest idiot -- someone who made
a mistake and got wx'd over his head and just doesn't remember
what "sVFR" is or how you ask for it. I know I've had those
"wheel spinning but the hamster's dead" moments myself, not in
this regard but in others.

In those circs, sure seems like a better SOP to ask "do you
require assistance?" or "are you requesting special VFR clearance?"
and ask the pilot to phone from the ground to suss him out and
decide if you're dealing with an honest idiot or a scofflaw jerk
then just "treat him like the idiot he is" and maybe have him
go away flustered and bend something.

Anyway, if I get into trouble someday I sure hope I draw the
male supe with the nice voice and not the "treat him like an
idiot until proven otherwise" trainee controller.

JMO of course.
Sydney

The difference here is that the field you were flying to is reporting
good VFR and you had that weather. My guy either didn't bother to get
the ATIS, which is why I told him the field is IFR, or he got the
weather and either didn't understand or didn't care. Either way saying
"the field is IFR say intentions" covers it.
I can tell the difference between someone who is in over their head
and someone who isn't. It is obvious on the radio, just like you heard
with that other aircraft.

Snowbird wrote:


Y'know, I sure hope this isn't exactly your SOP.

I was flying along, minding my own business VFR over a layer
one day, getting flight following from ZKC while heading for
southern MO. The layer was already broken, and the ASOS at
our destination airport was reporting clear so I wasn't too
worried about getting down.

I was listening to the female controller work a couple flights
over by Lake of the Ozarks. One plane, VFR evidently, was
asking for info about VFR wx conditions in sort of a strange way.
Suddenly a male voice took over and asked the pilot "say
your conditions of flight" then directly "are you IMC?" He
was very gentle and non-judgemental and provided a vector towards
a nearby airport, then rerouted a couple of IFR planes a bit.

Evidently it was a trainee controller working a pilot who'd
blundered into clouds and was trying to get out. The female
controller had kind of been "treating him like an idiot" but
something clued her superviser to a different possibility.
After a couple minutes the female voice took back over,
sounding a little flustered.

So, someone calls up and says "I want to land" when you've
told him the field is IFR. Now maybe he's a scofflaw idiot.

But maybe he's a relatively honest idiot -- someone who made
a mistake and got wx'd over his head and just doesn't remember
what "sVFR" is or how you ask for it. I know I've had those
"wheel spinning but the hamster's dead" moments myself, not in
this regard but in others.

In those circs, sure seems like a better SOP to ask "do you
require assistance?" or "are you requesting special VFR clearance?"
and ask the pilot to phone from the ground to suss him out and
decide if you're dealing with an honest idiot or a scofflaw jerk
then just "treat him like the idiot he is" and maybe have him
go away flustered and bend something.

Anyway, if I get into trouble someday I sure hope I draw the
male supe with the nice voice and not the "treat him like an
idiot until proven otherwise" trainee controller.

JMO of course.
Sydney

Newps wrote in message news:Jw0nb.28169$275.50566@attbi_s53...
The difference here is that the field you were flying to is reporting
good VFR and you had that weather. My guy either didn't bother to get
the ATIS, which is why I told him the field is IFR, or he got the
weather and either didn't understand or didn't care. Either way saying
"the field is IFR say intentions" covers it.

It does to someone who knows the drill. It doesn't to someone
who badly wants to land but can't remember whatcha ask for --
special something?

I can tell the difference between someone who is in over their head
and someone who isn't. It is obvious on the radio, just like you heard
with that other aircraft.

Well, I guess my point is, it was obvious to one controller -- but
not to the first controller, and not to me.

I don't know if you've been around long enough to read Greg Travis'
story of being hijacked, but one of his problems was, HE SOUNDED
SO CALM flying around with a shotgun pointed at him, that the
controllers didn't take him seriously at first and jeopardized
his safety by repeatedly questioning him.
(the story is here if anyone didn't see it and is interested:
http://www.prime-mover.org/Personal/travis.txt and btw Greg has
an awesome, informative site in general)

So clearly there's a margin of error in what's obvious and to whom,
even taking into account differences in personality and training.

Seems like cause for a bit of "benefit of the doubt" in the air,
to me.

YMMV.

Ciao,
Sydney

Snowbird wrote:

I can tell the difference between someone who is in over their head
and someone who isn't. It is obvious on the radio, just like you heard
with that other aircraft.


Well, I guess my point is, it was obvious to one controller

Yep, the one not being trained.


-- but
not to the first controller, and not to me.

I wouldn't think so.



Seems like cause for a bit of "benefit of the doubt" in the air,
to me.

There are other factors too. Is he flying a single engine like a 172 or
a cherokee? Does he sound young or old, etc?

Newps wrote in message news:5Nvnb.50619$e01.125474@attbi_s02...
Snowbird wrote:
I can tell the difference between someone who is in over their head
and someone who isn't. It is obvious on the radio, just like you heard
with that other aircraft.

Well, I guess my point is, it was obvious to one controller

Yep, the one not being trained.

I don't think any of the controllers working Greg Travis
were trainees.

Clearly even experienced ATCS are not infalliable in their
abilities to tell whether or not a pilot is really in trouble.

Seems like cause for a bit of "benefit of the doubt" in the air,
to me.

There are other factors too.

Maybe. I think it boils down to this: you believe you can
always tell what's really going on in the cockpit when you're
sitting in a chair behind a mic, so you get to make judgements
and "treat (pilots) like the idiots they are".

I think everyone is falliable, *particularly* when they're
sitting in a chair on the ground and not up in the furball,
so it's better not to treat anyone like an idiot. Even if
they really are.

Not for the first time, we disagree.

Cheers,
Sydney