Contact Approach

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
k.net...

"Stan Prevost" wrote in message
...

That does not define VFR conditions and is not permissive about operating
below 1000 ft under VFR.

FAR 91.155 most certainly does define VFR conditions

91.155(a) defines VFR conditions for each class of airspace. 91.155(c),
which was the specific regulation you referenced, defines a prohibition
against VFR operations under certain conditions in any airspace.

and we are not discussing operating below 1000' AGL under VFR.

The issue at hand is the requirement in the ATC manual for ATC to "ensure
that weather conditions at the airport are VFR " as a condition to issuing
a visual approach clearance. VFR conditions are defined in 91.155(a)
subject to an additional Class G permissive rule in 91.155(b) and
prohibitions against operations under certain conditions in (c) for all
airspace and (d) in B/C/D/E airspace.




One still has to obey airspace cloud clearance rules.


Only when one is operating VFR, we're discussing an IFR operation here.


For VFR conditions to exist as required by 7110.65 7-4-3(b) in order to
clear an aircraft for the IFR operation under discussion, one must be able
to operate under VFR, including obeying cloud clearance rules. FAR
91.155(a) defines those conditions subject to additional restrictions in
91.155(c) and (d).

"Stan Prevost" wrote in message
...

91.155(a) defines VFR conditions for each class of airspace.


Correct.



91.155(c), which was the specific regulation you referenced, defines a
prohibition
against VFR operations under certain conditions in any airspace.


The question was, "Where does the 1000 come from?" The answer is FAR
91.155(c).



The issue at hand is the requirement in the ATC manual for ATC to "ensure
that weather conditions at the airport are VFR " as a condition to
issuing
a visual approach clearance. VFR conditions are defined in 91.155(a)
subject to an additional Class G permissive rule in 91.155(b) and
prohibitions against operations under certain conditions in (c) for all
airspace and (d) in B/C/D/E airspace.


Correct.



For VFR conditions to exist as required by 7110.65 7-4-3(b) in order to
clear an aircraft for the IFR operation under discussion, one must be able
to operate under VFR, including obeying cloud clearance rules.

That is not correct. The only IFR operation subject to VFR cloud clearance
requirements is VFR-on-top.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
news



91.155(c), which was the specific regulation you referenced, defines a
prohibition
against VFR operations under certain conditions in any airspace.


The question was, "Where does the 1000 come from?" The answer is FAR
91.155(c).


That is the answer you gave. Why is it the correct answer? 91.155(c) does
not define VFR conditions or permit any operation. It only prohibits
certain operations under certain conditions. How does it contribute toward
satisfying the rule ATC must follow to ensure that VFR conditions exist
before issuing a clearance for a visual approach?



For VFR conditions to exist as required by 7110.65 7-4-3(b) in order to
clear an aircraft for the IFR operation under discussion, one must be
able
to operate under VFR, including obeying cloud clearance rules.

That is not correct. The only IFR operation subject to VFR cloud
clearance requirements is VFR-on-top.


That is not correct. On a contact approach, the pilot must remain clear of
clouds.

However, I did not say that the IFR operation is subject to VFR cloud
clearance rules. I said that for VFR conditions to exist, one must be able
to operate under VFR, including obeying cloud clearance rules. In other
words, VFR conditions are defined in 91.155(a). When the requirements of
91.155(a) are not met, VFR conditions do not exist and a visual approach
clearance may not be issued in accordance with the ATC manual.

"Stan Prevost" wrote in message
...

That is the answer you gave. Why is it the correct answer?


Because that's where 1000' comes from.



91.155(c) does
not define VFR conditions or permit any operation. It only prohibits
certain operations under certain conditions. How does it contribute
toward
satisfying the rule ATC must follow to ensure that VFR conditions exist
before issuing a clearance for a visual approach?


The controller must ensure that weather conditions at the airport are VFR
prior to issuing a visual approach clearance. If you have a ceiling of less
than 1000' in a surface area you do not have VFR conditions and a visual
approach is not available.



That is not correct. On a contact approach, the pilot must remain clear
of
clouds.


Yes, he must remain clear of clouds, which just happens to be the same as
VFR cloud clearance requirements in Class B airspace and Class G airspace
during the day. But VFR cloud clearance requirements are greater in Class
C, D, and E airspace, and yet the pilot must still remain only clear of
clouds on a contact approach. He does not have to follow VFR cloud
clearance requirements on a contact approach or a visual approach.



However, I did not say that the IFR operation is subject to VFR cloud
clearance rules. I said that for VFR conditions to exist, one must be
able
to operate under VFR, including obeying cloud clearance rules.


Yes, you said that. It's not true.



In other
words, VFR conditions are defined in 91.155(a). When the requirements of
91.155(a) are not met, VFR conditions do not exist and a visual approach
clearance may not be issued in accordance with the ATC manual.


That's true, but that does not mean that pilots must adhere to VFR cloud
clearance requirements on a VFR approach. Whatever gave you the idea they
did? What purpose would that serve?