Decent below MDA, Legal?

Greg, where can we view this ruling by the NTSB?
Do you or anyone have references to actual situations where pilots
have been violated using "careless and reckless" due to operating in
imc in uncontrolled airspace?
thanks, Stan
On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 06:06:41 GMT, Greg Esres
wrote:

In a recent FAA sponsored seminar that I attended, a retired Tower
Controller mentioned in his presentation that IMC flight in Class G
airspace without a clearance was actually legal as long as the
aircraft and pilot were both instrument qualified.


Yes, but not really. The NTSB has ruled such activty as "Careless or
reckless", and violated pilots for it.

In article ,
wrote:

Greg, where can we view this ruling by the NTSB?
Do you or anyone have references to actual situations where pilots
have been violated using "careless and reckless" due to operating in
imc in uncontrolled airspace?

The issue is not operating in IMC in uncontrolled airspace. The OP's
question revolved around descending below the MDA on an instrument
approach without having the runway environment in sight. That's illegal.

Sure, but I think the point here (definitely a "don't try this at
home" but an interesting theoretical point) is that if upon
reaching MDA, still in IMC, you cancel IFR (very quickly!)
then you would still be legal.

Whether this is wise is altogether a different point. However
if it is C&R then logically so is ANY uncontrolled IMC in
class G. Which is fine by me, I find the idea horrifying, even
if it is commonplace in the UK.

John

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:

Greg, where can we view this ruling by the NTSB?
Do you or anyone have references to actual situations where pilots
have been violated using "careless and reckless" due to operating in
imc in uncontrolled airspace?

The issue is not operating in IMC in uncontrolled airspace. The OP's
question revolved around descending below the MDA on an instrument
approach without having the runway environment in sight. That's illegal.

"John Harper" wrote in message
news:1063025978.731057@sj-nntpcache-3...

Sure, but I think the point here (definitely a "don't try this at
home" but an interesting theoretical point) is that if upon
reaching MDA, still in IMC, you cancel IFR (very quickly!)
then you would still be legal.


It wouldn't be legal if the Class E floor is 700 AGL, as I believe it was in
the scenario provided here. The FARs still apply in Class G airspace,
including the one on minimum IFR altitudes. Ya gotta be at least 1000 feet
above the highest obstacle within 4 miles, and ya can't do that where
controlled airspace begins at 700 feet above the ground.

if upon
reaching MDA, still in IMC, you cancel IFR (very quickly!)
then you would still be legal.


No.

In uncontrolled airspace, I believe you still must be on an IFR flight plan to
operate IFR. You just don't need a "clearance" since no separation is
provided.

I'm away from my FARs right now; I could be wrong (and will no doubt discover
it quickly if so

Jose

(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

if upon
reaching MDA, still in IMC, you cancel IFR (very quickly!)
then you would still be legal.


No.

In uncontrolled airspace, I believe you still must be on an IFR flight
plan to
operate IFR. You just don't need a "clearance" since no separation is
provided.


No flight plan is required to operate IFR in Class G airspace. You can't do
what is suggested here, but not for lack of a flight plan.


§ 91.173 ATC clearance and flight plan required.

No person may operate an aircraft in controlled airspace under IFR unless
that person has --

(a) Filed an IFR flight plan; and

(b) Received an appropriate ATC clearance.

"Teacherjh" wrote in message ...

In uncontrolled airspace, I believe you still must be on an IFR flight plan to
operate IFR.

Untrue. No plan or clearance is requred.

But you are still IFR (as others have pointed out) and the rules for minimum altitudes
(either in general or on approaches) still apply.

91.173 ATC clearance and flight plan required.
No person may operate an aircraft in controlled airspace under IFR unless that person has -
(a) Filed an IFR flight plan; and
(b) Received an appropriate ATC clearance.

Greg, where can we view this ruling by the NTSB?

There is a website that has either all or a bunch of NTSB rulings. I
think there's a link from the FAA website or from the NTSB site, I
forget.

The case I have saved on my hard drive is Administrator vs. Murphy,
NTSB Order No. EA-3935, dated July 20, 1993.

It makes reference, however, to an earlier decision, Administrator
v. Vance, 5 NTSB 1037 (1986),