What happened on this ILS approach?

Michael wrote:

What you are describing is far from rare. Basically, it's a bad vector
- or a vector geared to the convenience of the controller rather than
the pilot. I actually got one similar to what you are describing on my
ATP checkride. I was vectored all over creation, in and out of cloud.
I was given an intercept that was too tight and WAY too high (the GS
needle was pegged down as I was cleared before the LOC even came off
the peg). However, because I had minimal workload and was monitoring
my GPS, I could see the bad vector/altitude situation developing, and I
adjusted the power/speed accordingly. In other words, I reduced power
and slowed WAY down so I could drop down quickly.

When the clearance came, I reduced power even further, dumped the nose,
and dove for the intercept altitude at 1000 fpm. I had almost 2000 ft
to lose. It was the only way to be stabilized on altitude and on
airspeed as I crossed the marker. Had I needed time to decide what to
do as I got the clearance, I would still have been fighting it at the
outer marker.

And the examiner was OK with this? I could see them expecting you to
declare a missed at that point. I'm not an ATP so this really is a
question not a criticism. I guess I'd be wondering on a checkride which
course would be best to take.

Matt

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Michael wrote:

What you are describing is far from rare. Basically, it's a bad vector
- or a vector geared to the convenience of the controller rather than
the pilot. I actually got one similar to what you are describing on my
ATP checkride. I was vectored all over creation, in and out of cloud.
I was given an intercept that was too tight and WAY too high (the GS
needle was pegged down as I was cleared before the LOC even came off
the peg). However, because I had minimal workload and was monitoring
my GPS, I could see the bad vector/altitude situation developing, and I
adjusted the power/speed accordingly. In other words, I reduced power
and slowed WAY down so I could drop down quickly.

When the clearance came, I reduced power even further, dumped the nose,
and dove for the intercept altitude at 1000 fpm. I had almost 2000 ft
to lose. It was the only way to be stabilized on altitude and on
airspeed as I crossed the marker. Had I needed time to decide what to
do as I got the clearance, I would still have been fighting it at the
outer marker.

And the examiner was OK with this? I could see them expecting you to
declare a missed at that point. I'm not an ATP so this really is a
question not a criticism. I guess I'd be wondering on a checkride which
course would be best to take.

Matt

Most examiners won't pass you on an ATP checkride unless you can make things
work. If you intercept an approach at 90deg for example, instead of a 90
deg turn outbound and then the proceedure turn, you make a 90 deg from the
FAF and parallel the outbound then make a 180. Making all the turns to
follow the line on the chart will exceeded the protected airspace in a fast
airplane.

Mike
MU-2.

And the examiner was OK with this?

Yes. But what made it OK was that I saw it coming and prepared for it.
I didn't just make it - I had it made. In fact, I was telling him the
vector was going to be bad as it was being set up, and that I was
slowing down so I could dive. There wasn't much explanation necessary
because he knew the score.

I could see them expecting you to declare a missed at that point.

And at the IR level, you would be right. At the ATP level, there's a
difference. You're expected to make things work - no matter what - and
do it without being surprised and without breaking a sweat. Bad
vectors are very much a part of life. At the ATP level, you're
expected to just take them in stride - not declare a miss, hose up the
sequencing, and get sent to the back of the line.

I'm not an ATP so this really is a question not a criticism.

I understand exactly where you're coming from. The obvious implication
is this - isn't this too much workload to take on? Doesn't adding this
kind of dive to a bad intercept make the outcome iffy? And I guess my
answer is - not for someone flying at the ATP skill level. It's just
not an issue.

I guess I'd be wondering on a checkride which course would be best to take.

I don't think so. Not if you trained for your ATP with an actual
practicing ATP. At least after flying a few hours with a Northwest
captain, I didn't have any doubts about the correct course of action in
that situation.

Michael