What happened on this ILS approach?

paul kgyy wrote:

The examiner told me that I had violated the PTS
requirement for an ILS maneuver, but she said the fact that I
stabilized on the GS as soon as I got there made it acceptable.

I recall my instructor preaching against diving for the glideslope, stating
that dropping at over 1,000 fpm at a low altitude and in IMC could be
problematic.

As the more experienced pilots in this thread pointed out, apparently this
is a viable tactic, but certainly one that develops with experience.

--
Peter
























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I recall my instructor preaching against diving for the glideslope, stating
that dropping at over 1,000 fpm at a low altitude and in IMC could be
problematic.

And he's right - it CAN be problematic. It demands more of the pilot.
Set up that descent and divert attention for a bit longer than you
planned, and you can be in for a once-in-a-lifetime experience - the
kind that comes right at the end. But sometimes it's necessary to get
the job done. So how do you know when it's appropriate? Believe it or
not, there is an answer.

It's appropriate when you can see in advance that you will have to do
it due to factors beyond your control. In other words, it's OK to do
this to fix a bad vector - but not your own mistake. Why? Because if
you already made a mistake bad enough to put yourself in this position,
what makes you think you won't make another that bad? A radical
maneuver that requires better-than-average skill to pull off is a bad
idea if you're using it to fix a mistake caused by your own
worse-than-average performance just minutes or seconds ago.

On the other hand, when you have to do it to fix the mistake of someone
else, one you saw coming as he was making it, it's not a big deal.
You're starting out ahead, not behind.

As the more experienced pilots in this thread pointed out, apparently this
is a viable tactic, but certainly one that develops with experience.

I teach it as part of the initial instrument rating - because this kind
of problem is so common. I will actually create bad vectors for the
student to fly, and teach him how to deal with them. Given what I've
seen at Houston Approach, it's just common sense - he will be dealing
with them sooner rather than later. But that comes AFTER the basic
approach is mastered, and I never allow the student to use these
techniques to fix his own mistakes.

Michael

Michael wrote:

It's appropriate when you can see in advance that you will have to do
it due to factors beyond your control. In other words, it's OK to do
this to fix a bad vector - but not your own mistake.

Excellent distinction. Thanks for pointing that out.

--
Peter
























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Yep. Thanks!

Peter R. wrote:
Michael wrote:


It's appropriate when you can see in advance that you will have to do
it due to factors beyond your control. In other words, it's OK to do
this to fix a bad vector - but not your own mistake.


Excellent distinction. Thanks for pointing that out.

I agree with Peter. Diving for the GS is never a good idea and should
be exercised only (if ever) by experienced IMC pilots at familiar
airports. Request new vectors so that you get the LOC below the GS, or
request to fly the full procedure. Then the altitude selections are
yours to decide based on the published procedure. This would have been
a good choice in your situation.

Greg J.


I recall my instructor preaching against diving for the glideslope, stating
that dropping at over 1,000 fpm at a low altitude and in IMC could be
problematic.

Not being descended soon enough is one of the biggest complaints the
airline captains have on Approach. ATC seems to think we have a
helicopter out there. Actually, what is happening is ATC sees one guy
do it and assumes everyone can. My Husky can come down 1000' per MILE
at my standard approach speed. It is good to know what YOUR airplane
limitations are. Some airplanes have spoilers and can come down quite
steeply. Other airplanes can't come down so steep.

You just have to make a decision whether to try and dive for it or not.
If you can't dive and make it, might as well level out and request
another try and tell the guy you need lower earlier. I actually think
this is a pretty serious problem. Someone is going to dive on in and
come in hot and long and overun the runway. There is a lot of pressure
when arrivals are lined up NOT to go missed. Such decisions are where
Captains earn their keep.

Doug wrote:

Not being descended soon enough is one of the biggest complaints the
airline captains have on Approach. ATC seems to think we have a
helicopter out there.

Some of the pilots at the carrier I used to work for had a standard speech
for center or TRACON controllers when they rode the jump seat on "fam"
trips: The captain would place his hand on the speed brake handle and say,
"This is to correct my mistakes, not your's."

Cute, but I don't think it did much good.

With a light piston, it seems to me the old rule about not dropping below
15 inches of manifold pressure (except on short final) was a pretty sound
rule, IMC or VMC.

Best one to use I've heard is "If I don't get lower soon, I will exceed
my maximum descent profile, need lower NOW!"

Then "Matter of fact, we just exceeded it."

wrote in message ...

Some of the pilots at the carrier I used to work for had a standard speech
for center or TRACON controllers when they rode the jump seat on "fam"
trips: The captain would place his hand on the speed brake handle and
say,
"This is to correct my mistakes, not your's."

Cute, but I don't think it did much good.


It appears then that some are hesitant to use it to correct their mistakes.
In my experience aircraft are too high because they failed to descend in
time on a discretionary clearance far more often than because ATC didn't
clear them down in time.