Advice On Flying Clubs

"Karl-Heinz Kuenzel" wrote in message
...

Jay,
take a look in "YOUR PILOT'S LICENSE" by JERRY A. EICHENBERGER pages 52 -
54. McGraw-Hill.
(Go to your nearest Barnes & Noble store, have a coffee and read those 3
pages....)
regards Karl-Heinz


Thanks for the suggestion K-H, but could you just give me the "gist" of what
the author has to say?

I can guarentee my B&N won't have that book...their aviation section sucks
rocks. Makes me miss living in Dayton, OH (almost) where I used to do my
book shopping at the USAF Museum store.

Thanks,

Jay

"Jay Beckman" wrote in message
news:yP_Ge.205090$Qo.190101@fed1read01...
Hey All...

I'm considering applying to join an area flying club and I'd really like
to get some thoughts on the subject, Positives and Negatives...

So, what works and what doesn't in "Club Flying"?

TIA,

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

My thanks to all...

Good thoughts and will fuel a list of questions to ask..

Regards,

Jay

Paul Tomblin wrote:


No, it means that your monthly fees include an upgrade reserve.

How much? We've an avionics upgrade fund, but even that wasn't easy to get
accepted (though there was such a fund in the past, I believe). And it's
rather small.


Consider a member that joins in 2000 and leaves in 2004. If, in 2005,
there's finally enough money for some planned upgrade, doesn't that mean
that the now-ex-member helped to fund an upgrade he or she will never use?

That member joined a club that had newish aircraft in 2000, bought with
the upgrade funds contributed by other members. They got the benefit of
other members upgrade reserve, just as future members get the benefit of
theirs.

The club started with 20 guys and a Cessna 120. Fifty years later, we've
got 48 members and 5 planes, and all along the way the fleet has been
upgraded as necessary to keep up with the needs of the members.

Growing the membership is one avenue open to a club using our
(share/equity-base) model. But I'm interested in how such a club can fund
upgrades independent of increasing membership.

Obviously, increasing equity is one approach. And it's what my club has
preferred over the years. But I'm interested in at least learning what the
other options are.

When we bought a new plane, for example, equity was increased. We did
this
over time, so in looks like a periodic payment. But a departing member
gets all his or her equity back.

Since our member only had to pay $795 to join, he doesn't have any equity
and doesn't get anything when he quits.

That's somewhat higher than the "throwaway cost" of joining our club. But
the equity (or "share" or "buy in") is $5000. Reminder: that's returned
when a member leaves.

The other local club at our field
does an equity thing, and it costs $32,000 to join. And when they
increased the fleet to 4 aircraft, every one of them got hit with an
additional assessment.

That's seems quite high. Do you know their member/aircraft ratio?

- Andrew

Paul Tomblin wrote:


http://www.rochesterflyingclub.com/rates.shtml
$80 a month.Â*Â*WhichÂ*isÂ*lessÂ*thanÂ*you'dÂ*payÂ*forÂ* rentersÂ*insurance,
according to AOPA.

BTW, why break out the insurance from the monthly? The actual monthly is
$80+$24. Why not just call it $104?

Any why break out "Lance membership" for a higher monthly? I'd guess that
this is to avoid having "low end" members pay the fixed costs for the "high
end" planes, right?

- Andrew

In a previous article, Andrew Gideon said:
Paul Tomblin wrote:
http://www.rochesterflyingclub.com/rates.shtml
$80 a month.

BTW, why break out the insurance from the monthly? The actual monthly is
$80+$24. Why not just call it $104?

No, the actual monthly is $82. The insurance is once a year.

Any why break out "Lance membership" for a higher monthly? I'd guess that
this is to avoid having "low end" members pay the fixed costs for the "high
end" planes, right?

Yes. This year we were forced to go to a "named pilot" policy on the
Lance. Since the insurance company only wanted 8 people on the list, but
15 people wanted to fly it and a bunch more had thoughts about eventually
moving up to it, we put that levy on the Lance pilots so that 7 people
would drop off the list of "wanting to fly the Lance", just to be fair to
the rest of the club. Personally, I pay the fee, and I wouldn't think it
fair that the rest of the club pays for the Lance's fixed costs if they
couldn't fly it.

--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
You'll get access to my computer room right after you pry the Halon test
key out of my cold, lifeless hands.
-- Simon Travaglia

In a previous article, Andrew Gideon said:
Paul Tomblin wrote:
No, it means that your monthly fees include an upgrade reserve.

How much? We've an avionics upgrade fund, but even that wasn't easy to get

I think we're aiming at $30,000 a year. That pays for a new engine and a
prop overhaul when we need it, and if we go a year without needing one of
those, we get a stormscope or a paint job or something. We were
considering GPS options when we got hit with this insurance problem on our
Lance. The Lance needs a new engine, but it's hardly worth putting
$30,000 into it if the insurance companies are going to get even more
chicken next year and refuse to insure it at all.

Growing the membership is one avenue open to a club using our
(share/equity-base) model. But I'm interested in how such a club can fund
upgrades independent of increasing membership.

Like I said, by making sure the monthly fees have an upgrade reserve.

The other local club at our field
does an equity thing, and it costs $32,000 to join. And when they
increased the fleet to 4 aircraft, every one of them got hit with an
additional assessment.

That's seems quite high. Do you know their member/aircraft ratio?

Last time I checked, it was 24 members and 4 planes, including a Lance.
They also have t-hangers for each plane, so their monthly dues are about
double ours.

--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"Orcs killed: none. Disappointing. Stubble update: I look rugged and
manly. Yes! Keep wanting to drop-kick Gimli. Holding myself back. Still
not King." - the very secret diary of Aragorn son of Arathron

Paul Tomblin wrote:

In a previous article, Andrew Gideon said:
Paul Tomblin wrote:
http://www.rochesterflyingclub.com/rates.shtml
$80 a month.

BTW, why break out the insurance from the monthly? The actual monthly is
$80+$24. Why not just call it $104?

No, the actual monthly is $82. The insurance is once a year.

Oh, so the monthly cost is $82+($24/12)=$84?

I still don't understand why you break it out, though. Our club simply
bundles insurance into the monthly (along with other fixed costs). Why
break out this cost, but not others?


Any why break out "Lance membership" for a higher monthly? I'd guess that
this is to avoid having "low end" members pay the fixed costs for the
"high end" planes, right?

Yes. This year we were forced to go to a "named pilot" policy on the
Lance. Since the insurance company only wanted 8 people on the list, but
15 people wanted to fly it and a bunch more had thoughts about eventually
moving up to it, we put that levy on the Lance pilots so that 7 people
would drop off the list of "wanting to fly the Lance", just to be fair to
the rest of the club.

Ah, the economic solution to excess demand. Reasonable.

Personally, I pay the fee, and I wouldn't think it
fair that the rest of the club pays for the Lance's fixed costs if they
couldn't fly it.

Also reasonable. And I assume that, despite the fact that the motivation
for the premium is controlling demand, the extra income goes to the Lance's
fixed costs?

- Andrew

Paul Tomblin wrote:

In a previous article, Andrew Gideon said:
Paul Tomblin wrote:
No, it means that your monthly fees include an upgrade reserve.

How much? We've an avionics upgrade fund, but even that wasn't easy to
get

I think we're aiming at $30,000 a year. That pays for a new engine and a
prop overhaul when we need it, and if we go a year without needing one of
those, we get a stormscope or a paint job or something.

Interesting. We have dedicated reserves, which is a little different than
what you're describing. That is, we do have an engine overhaul reserve for
each airplane. These accrue over several years, so "going w/o needing one"
over a year is more the norm than the exception.

Wouldn't you have a problem if (for example) two planes needed an overhaul
w/in the same year if you're not building up engine overhaul reserves over
multiple years? Or am I missing something?

We also have "interior" and "paint" reserves (and, I think, "prop reserves"
for the two constant speed props...but I'm not sure).

More, items like an engine reserve are usually included in an aircraft's
hourly rate (as opposed to a monthly fee). So your fleet upgrades come out
of hourly rates?

Our avionic reserve is paid by monthly, but the engine, paint, etc. reserves
are paid by hourly. I don't recall all the math, but I believe (for
example) the hourly rate is computed so as to accrue the price of an
overhaul ($20,000?) in 2000 hours.

[...]
Growing the membership is one avenue open to a club using our
(share/equity-base) model. But I'm interested in how such a club can fund
upgrades independent of increasing membership.

Like I said, by making sure the monthly fees have an upgrade reserve.

I've been assuming that any upgrade funding would be time-based (and
therefore to be taken from the monthly). But, if I've understood correctly
(and as I wrote above) your club is paying for upgrades out of hourly.

Have you a reason for choosing one over the other? I've been thinking along
the lines of avionics, and I think of new features/models/capabilities as
coming over calendar time rather than flight hours. That's why I tend to
think "monthly" for upgrades.

The other local club at our field
does an equity thing, and it costs $32,000 to join. And when they
increased the fleet to 4 aircraft, every one of them got hit with an
additional assessment.

That's seems quite high. Do you know their member/aircraft ratio?

Last time I checked, it was 24 members and 4 planes, including a Lance.
They also have t-hangers for each plane, so their monthly dues are about
double ours.

Hmm. That's almost $200,000 equity per airplane. Unless those are recent
models or very upgraded or all "high end" aircraft, that seems high to me.

- Andrew

Clubs vary a lot. Paul Tomblin gives you a lot of good questions to
ask but misses the most important ones, in my opinion:

What are the rules? And I mean all of them. Read them carefully.
Remember, eventually they will probably be applied against a member in
the worst possible way. That member may be you. Be sure you're OK
with that.

How are rules made? Do all rules have to be approved by a majority of
the membership? Or just the majority of those who vote, and if the
latter what constitutes a quorum? Or can club officers make rules? Do
they like to?

The primary problem with clubs is that they tend to have more rules
than FBO's, and WAY more rules than the insurance company will impose
on you in a partnership. On the other hand, it's harder to walk away
from a club than an FBO because you're invested.

Michael

In a previous article, Andrew Gideon said:
Paul Tomblin wrote:
I think we're aiming at $30,000 a year. That pays for a new engine and a
prop overhaul when we need it, and if we go a year without needing one of
those, we get a stormscope or a paint job or something.
Wouldn't you have a problem if (for example) two planes needed an overhaul
w/in the same year if you're not building up engine overhaul reserves over
multiple years? Or am I missing something?

Well, we're financed by debt - our planes are valued at $500,000 and we've
got a $500,000 line of credit. If we need two engines at the same time,
we just go further into debt and need more time to pay it off. But the
goal is not to get totally out of debt, just to keep the debt at a
managable level - I think right now we're $100,000 right now, because of
the aircraft upgrades and engines we've put in in recent years.

therefore to be taken from the monthly). But, if I've understood correctly
(and as I wrote above) your club is paying for upgrades out of hourly.

No, out of monthly.

The other local club at our field
does an equity thing, and it costs $32,000 to join. And when they
Last time I checked, it was 24 members and 4 planes, including a Lance.
They also have t-hangers for each plane, so their monthly dues are about
double ours.

Hmm. That's almost $200,000 equity per airplane. Unless those are recent
models or very upgraded or all "high end" aircraft, that seems high to me.

I could be wrong about that. 10 years ago when I was first looking, their
share price was only $4,000 (for three planes), and it was out of my reach
then. Sure, looking back it would probably have been a good investment,
but I didn't have $4,000 to spare then and I don't have whatever their
share price is now.


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Why is there only one Monopolies and Mergers Commission?
-- JNP