Completing the Non-precision approach as a Visual Approach

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

The gist of my question involves either or both of these aspects:

1) Does "having the runway environment in sight...make a normal landing"
in 91.175 mean its ok to descend below MDA, fly a couple more miles to the
airport and then fly the pattern (circle to land), as long as the runway
is
still in sight.


Yes.



2) Once I get to class G airspace on my approach and am clear of clouds
in
1 mi vis, can I then descend below MDA by doing something like declaring
myself visual, contact, or canceled IFR.


No, you do not get to Class G airspace at any point at or above the MDA.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

The gist of my question involves either or both of these aspects:

1) Does "having the runway environment in sight...make a normal
landing"
in 91.175 mean its ok to descend below MDA, fly a couple more miles to
the
airport and then fly the pattern (circle to land), as long as the runway
is
still in sight.


Yes.


Thanks, this is as I hoped. Somewhere along the way I had picked up a
suspicion that I couldn't legally descend from MDA until aligned with the
runway.


2) Once I get to class G airspace on my approach and am clear of
clouds
in
1 mi vis, can I then descend below MDA by doing something like declaring
myself visual, contact, or canceled IFR.


No, you do not get to Class G airspace at any point at or above the MDA.



Ok, if not on this particular example, let's say it was
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...l/BWD_vr17.pdf
where MDA is 434 haa/hat, and class G up to 700? Do any new options open
up to me once I descend out of controlled airspace at 700 agl, clear of
clouds and 1 mi vis? E.g. I could cancel IFR at that point...

Thanks again,
John

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

Ok, if not on this particular example, let's say it was
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...l/BWD_vr17.pdf
where MDA is 434 haa/hat, and class G up to 700? Do any new options open
up to me once I descend out of controlled airspace at 700 agl, clear of
clouds and 1 mi vis? E.g. I could cancel IFR at that point...


Yes, on this approach you enter Class G airspace before reaching the MDA.

John Clonts wrote:

snip

Somewhere along the way I had picked up a
suspicion that I couldn't legally descend from MDA until aligned with the
runway.

I've seen this recommended as a conservative rule to keep yourself safe on a
circling approach, but it's not regulatory. On some approaches it will be just
about impossible. You'll find that in order to descend using "normal" maneuvers
you'll need to start your descent before alignment with the runway.

Consider what happens if you are circling with visibility near the minimum for
the approach and don't descend from MDA until you are aligned. Will you be able
to get down?

OTOH, whenever you decide to descend below MDA, you are giving up the obstacle
protection that the approach designers built in, and substituting your own
visual obstacle avoidance. It's a tradeoff.

snip

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly

"John Clonts" wrote
Thanks, this is as I hoped. Somewhere along the way I had picked up a
suspicion that I couldn't legally descend from MDA until aligned with the
runway.

This is often taught as normal procedure but (1) it's not regulatory
and (2) on most circling approaches to minimums (meaning visibility
minimums) it's either dangerous or just plain unworkable.

Look at it this way - the visibility min on most circling approaches
is 1 sm. That means that in order to keep the runway in sight, you
can't ever get more than a mile from it. That means that your pattern
will be 3/4 mile wide, max, if you're not going to exceed 1 sm from
the runway when turning base. That means that when you turn final,
you have 3/4 of a mile to get down, max. On a 4 degree glideslope
(which is about the steepest I would recommend in low vis) that's 300
ft. On a 7 degree glideslope (which is normal power-off 10:1 glide
for a light single) that's barely over 500 ft. Circling minimums are
usually higher than 500 ft. Does that mean you're going to slip down
final with a mile of vis? Are you planning on trying this trick at
night too?

Personally, I recommend starting the descent early enough that you can
maintain a constant and comfortable 3 degree descent (about 500 fpm at
90 kts) all the way to touchdown.

When the sky is blue, it's no big deal to pull the power to idle, roll
into a maximum effort slip, get down, roll out just before the flare,
and put it on the numbers. Any reasonably competent VFR pilot should
be able to do it. When visibilities drop below 2 miles, especially at
night, with rain and mist, or both, it's really not a good idea. The
subtle visual cues that form the true basis for "seat of the pants"
flying are gone. As a rule of thumb, if you wouldn't maneuver that
way in IMC, don't do it when the vis is less than 2 miles.

2) Once I get to class G airspace on my approach and am clear of
clouds
in
1 mi vis, can I then descend below MDA by doing something like declaring
myself visual, contact, or canceled IFR.

If you are actually in Class G and have 1 mile and clear of clouds,
you can cancel IFR. IMO this is a suboptimal procedure.

For example, suppose that an airplane is holding for release. The
moment you cancel IFR, the controller will release it. If you are
operating at low altitude in minimum visibility near the airport, do
you really want company?

A visual approach requires VFR minimums to be issued. I believe you
need 3 miles of visibility for that.

A contact approach is fine with 1 mile and clear of clouds, and can be
issued in controlled airspace. However, if you can see the runway,
you don't need a contact approach. On the other hand, if you can't
see the runway but can see the ground, are familiar with the area,
know where you are, and are confident you can fly to the airport
visually while remaining clear of clouds and maintaining 1 mile flight
visibility, a contact approach is the way to go.

Michael

"Michael" wrote in message
om...
"John Clonts" wrote
Thanks, this is as I hoped. Somewhere along the way I had picked up a
suspicion that I couldn't legally descend from MDA until aligned with
the
runway.

This is often taught as normal procedure but (1) it's not regulatory
and (2) on most circling approaches to minimums (meaning visibility
minimums) it's either dangerous or just plain unworkable.

Look at it this way - the visibility min on most circling approaches
is 1 sm. That means that in order to keep the runway in sight, you
can't ever get more than a mile from it. That means that your pattern
will be 3/4 mile wide, max, if you're not going to exceed 1 sm from
the runway when turning base. That means that when you turn final,
you have 3/4 of a mile to get down, max. On a 4 degree glideslope
(which is about the steepest I would recommend in low vis) that's 300
ft. On a 7 degree glideslope (which is normal power-off 10:1 glide
for a light single) that's barely over 500 ft. Circling minimums are
usually higher than 500 ft. Does that mean you're going to slip down
final with a mile of vis? Are you planning on trying this trick at
night too?

Personally, I recommend starting the descent early enough that you can
maintain a constant and comfortable 3 degree descent (about 500 fpm at
90 kts) all the way to touchdown.

When the sky is blue, it's no big deal to pull the power to idle, roll
into a maximum effort slip, get down, roll out just before the flare,
and put it on the numbers. Any reasonably competent VFR pilot should
be able to do it. When visibilities drop below 2 miles, especially at
night, with rain and mist, or both, it's really not a good idea. The
subtle visual cues that form the true basis for "seat of the pants"
flying are gone. As a rule of thumb, if you wouldn't maneuver that
way in IMC, don't do it when the vis is less than 2 miles.

2) Once I get to class G airspace on my approach and am clear of
clouds
in
1 mi vis, can I then descend below MDA by doing something like
declaring
myself visual, contact, or canceled IFR.

If you are actually in Class G and have 1 mile and clear of clouds,
you can cancel IFR. IMO this is a suboptimal procedure.

For example, suppose that an airplane is holding for release. The
moment you cancel IFR, the controller will release it. If you are
operating at low altitude in minimum visibility near the airport, do
you really want company?

A visual approach requires VFR minimums to be issued. I believe you
need 3 miles of visibility for that.

A contact approach is fine with 1 mile and clear of clouds, and can be
issued in controlled airspace. However, if you can see the runway,
you don't need a contact approach. On the other hand, if you can't
see the runway but can see the ground, are familiar with the area,
know where you are, and are confident you can fly to the airport
visually while remaining clear of clouds and maintaining 1 mile flight
visibility, a contact approach is the way to go.

Michael

Excellent elaborations as usual, thanks!

John

A visual approach requires VFR minimums to be issued. I believe you
need 3 miles of visibility for that.

I think it depends on your AGL altitude. If you're below 1200' AGL outside
any magenta circles you only need 1mile vis. and inside the magenta circle
you would have to be below 700' AGL and only need 1 mile vis. If it was a
class E surface area then you would need 3 miles vis. to get in VFR. I
think.

Kobra



A contact approach is fine with 1 mile and clear of clouds, and can be
issued in controlled airspace. However, if you can see the runway,
you don't need a contact approach. On the other hand, if you can't
see the runway but can see the ground, are familiar with the area,
know where you are, and are confident you can fly to the airport
visually while remaining clear of clouds and maintaining 1 mile flight
visibility, a contact approach is the way to go.

Michael