CFI in IMC with Student

Roy Page wrote:
My own feeling was that it might not be legal.
My reasoning was that a CFII has received a check out flying instruments
from the right seat.
Whereas, a regular CFI has not been checked out flying on the gages from the
right seat.

The FAA doesn't care what seat you're sitting in. While it is
traditional for instructor check rides to be taken from the right
seat (assuming whatever you brought along for the ride has
side-by-side seating), there's nothing that requires you to sit in any
particular seat while exercising the priveleges of your certificates
and ratings.

On the sensibility issue, I would agree it depends on the mission.
This particular mission was a jaunt in the clouds with a certified pilot in
the left seat who was having problems controlling the aircraft under the
hood.
So the CFI took that pilot into the clouds saying he was PIC but the pilot
in the right seat did all the flying.
The CFI says it was legal, but in my opinion, this is just another case
where this CFI showed poor judgment.

There's nothing you've described so far which would lead me to believe
it was illegal. As for whether it was poor judgement or not, that's
impossible to say without knowing a lot more about the situation (and
even then, I'm sure any group of 10 pilots would have 12 or more
opinions on the subject).

It does sound like you've got an axe to grind, however. Basicly, this
boils down to you saying, "I think this guy showed poor judgment, don't
you agree with me?" Were you the pilot in question?

Yes I do have an axe to grind, this CFI seems to have a habit of doing
things which show poor judgment.
For instance, VOR A circular approaches at absolute minimums to a very small
airport when an ILS is just 10 miles away.
Several local pilots and instructors hold similar opinions and he appears to
be an accident just waiting to happen.
Do you just stand by and do nothing ?

Roy



"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
Roy Page wrote:
My own feeling was that it might not be legal.
My reasoning was that a CFII has received a check out flying instruments
from the right seat.
Whereas, a regular CFI has not been checked out flying on the gages from
the
right seat.

The FAA doesn't care what seat you're sitting in. While it is
traditional for instructor check rides to be taken from the right
seat (assuming whatever you brought along for the ride has
side-by-side seating), there's nothing that requires you to sit in any
particular seat while exercising the priveleges of your certificates
and ratings.

On the sensibility issue, I would agree it depends on the mission.
This particular mission was a jaunt in the clouds with a certified pilot
in
the left seat who was having problems controlling the aircraft under the
hood.
So the CFI took that pilot into the clouds saying he was PIC but the pilot
in the right seat did all the flying.
The CFI says it was legal, but in my opinion, this is just another case
where this CFI showed poor judgment.

There's nothing you've described so far which would lead me to believe
it was illegal. As for whether it was poor judgement or not, that's
impossible to say without knowing a lot more about the situation (and
even then, I'm sure any group of 10 pilots would have 12 or more
opinions on the subject).

It does sound like you've got an axe to grind, however. Basicly, this
boils down to you saying, "I think this guy showed poor judgment, don't
you agree with me?" Were you the pilot in question?

In article et,
"Roy Page" wrote:

Yes I do have an axe to grind, this CFI seems to have a habit of doing
things which show poor judgment.
For instance, VOR A circular approaches at absolute minimums to a very small
airport when an ILS is just 10 miles away.
Several local pilots and instructors hold similar opinions and he appears to
be an accident just waiting to happen.
Do you just stand by and do nothing ?

Of course not. You should bitch about him on a newsgroup. If that doesn't
work, try talking to him directly.

To be honest, though, if your level of experience is such that you talk
about "circular approaches", I have to wonder if you're in a position to be
passing judgment on other people's instrument flying.

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 22:37:06 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

To be honest, though, if your level of experience is such that you talk
about "circular approaches", I have to wonder if you're in a position to be
passing judgment on other people's instrument flying.

I second this thought..... Minimums are there for a reason. Now if the
original poster said the instructor went below minimums, then he would have
reason to question him.

For me, there is nothing more magical then breaking out at minimums.

If you go to
http://www.archive.org/details/ALieb...pproachintoMBO and
download the video, this is a clip of one my circle to land approaches down
to minimums.

Allen

Well, I appreciate all the input this evening.
Seems I am on the wrong track and stand corrected.
Thanks to you all I will keep my mouth shut and sulk in the corner :-)

Regards
Roy



"A Lieberman" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 22:37:06 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

To be honest, though, if your level of experience is such that you talk
about "circular approaches", I have to wonder if you're in a position to
be
passing judgment on other people's instrument flying.

I second this thought..... Minimums are there for a reason. Now if the
original poster said the instructor went below minimums, then he would
have
reason to question him.

For me, there is nothing more magical then breaking out at minimums.

If you go to
http://www.archive.org/details/ALieb...pproachintoMBO and
download the video, this is a clip of one my circle to land approaches
down
to minimums.

Allen

A Lieberman wrote:
On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 22:37:06 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

To be honest, though, if your level of experience is such that you talk
about "circular approaches", I have to wonder if you're in a position to be
passing judgment on other people's instrument flying.

I second this thought..... Minimums are there for a reason. Now if the
original poster said the instructor went below minimums, then he would have
reason to question him.

For me, there is nothing more magical then breaking out at minimums.

If you go to
http://www.archive.org/details/ALieb...pproachintoMBO and
download the video, this is a clip of one my circle to land approaches down
to minimums.


Nice video. Was that the stall horn I heard chirping on your
base-to-final turn? (2:05 and 2:11 in the video). Does that typically
happen?

On 12 Dec 2005 06:45:26 -0800, wrote:

Nice video. Was that the stall horn I heard chirping on your
base-to-final turn? (2:05 and 2:11 in the video). Does that typically
happen?

Yes, it was the stall horn. Got caught off guard on the winds aloft
blowing me through final. Also, getting thump around in the turbulence
didn't help matters which help triggered the stall horn :-)

You will notice that I took immediate corrective action by reducing my bank
and "accepting" the fact I would have to button hook back to final. Winds
at that level were 40 knots (quartering tail wind on base).

My mistake on that approach was squaring off base in my pattern when I
really should have just kept my turn going on base to final.

Stall horn in my plane starts chirping about 10 knots before stall, which
is fine with me :-)

One of my best landings can be seen at
http://www.archive.org/details/ALieb...rgMSfromMBOavi
I have sized the file down t 13 meg.

For a night touch and go, if you go to
http://www.archive.org/details/ALieb...n34LfromMBOavi
Centerline lighting shows up real nice in this video.
This file I have sized it down to 10 meg.

For a night landing at my home airport MBO go to
http://www.archive.org/details/ALieb...htLanding17MBO VASI and runway
lighting shows up nicely.
7 meg is this file size.

As you can see, I like to give that stall horn a good workout with my low
and slow landings.

If you have high bandwidth, if you go to
http://www.archive.org/details/ALieb...CeilingfromMBO
this was an ILS where I broke out at 1000 feet AGL. This video is high
resolution so that the instrument panel looks real nice in full screen.
Since I was asked to keep my speed up, stall horn barely chirps on touch
down. File size weighs in at 65 meg after downloading. Not sure why the
web page reports 100 meg.

I like it when someone is with me to video my landings, so I can self
critique my own landings. I am harder on myself for quality of my landings
then passengers are :-)

While, not videos,
http://www.archive.org/details/ALieb...htfromOhiotoMS has pictures of
my last flight from Ohio to MS. I call them the many faces of flight.
File sizes are less then 50kb per picture (5 pics) If experiencing these
pics doesn't give one incentive for getting their instrument rating, I
don't know what would!

Allen

A Lieberman wrote:
On 12 Dec 2005 06:45:26 -0800, wrote:

Nice video. Was that the stall horn I heard chirping on your
base-to-final turn? (2:05 and 2:11 in the video). Does that typically
happen?

Yes, it was the stall horn. Got caught off guard on the winds aloft
blowing me through final. Also, getting thump around in the turbulence
didn't help matters which help triggered the stall horn :-)

Thanks, I wasn't being critical -- I'm relatively new at instrument
flying and I wondered how people generally flew circling approaches.

You will notice that I took immediate corrective action by reducing my bank
and "accepting" the fact I would have to button hook back to final. Winds
at that level were 40 knots (quartering tail wind on base).

It did seem that you went from downwind to overshot awfully fast! the
winds would explain it. I can seldom fly a square pattern when I do
circle to land -- I usually have to button hook it.

Stall horn in my plane starts chirping about 10 knots before stall, which
is fine with me :-)

That is quite a margin. I did notice in the video that your airspeed
needle didn't appear to be in the region were I would expect the stall
horn to be triggered.

As you can see, I like to give that stall horn a good workout with my low
and slow landings.

Is that because you are flying a Sundowner? I've never flown one but
I've read that if you're even the slightest bit fast you'll float in
the flare. Of course a 10 kt margin is also unusually wide for a stall
horn.

thanks for all the videos!

On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 03:16:07 GMT, Roy Page wrote:

Yes I do have an axe to grind, this CFI seems to have a habit of doing
things which show poor judgment.
For instance, VOR A circular approaches at absolute minimums to a very small
airport when an ILS is just 10 miles away.
Several local pilots and instructors hold similar opinions and he appears to
be an accident just waiting to happen.
Do you just stand by and do nothing ?

Roy

Hmm, can't say anything about the instructor you are talking about, but I
had an instructor that had me go to minimums at my own airport (VOR A at
MBO) circle to land.

In fact, one lesson, we tried three times to come back, and was in the clag
for all three missed approaches. Decided at that time, ILS at HKS is our
next option. Little did we know it went down to ILS minimums at HKS. We
broke out exactly 200 AGL at the middle marker.

I had three lessons right at minimums at my own airport, so when it came
for my first single pilot IFR, guess what? It was no big deal! He put me
through the mill, but when the chips (ceilings in this case) were down, I
was trained in the real deal. First day on my single pilot IFR, I went up
with 1000 foot ceilings, shot 3 ILS approaches, and felt like I had a ton
of time when I broke out. By the time I came back to my own airport,
ceilings went up to 1500, again, no biggie having gone through the "worst
case scenario" in my training.

I was thankful this instructor was not afraid to do the real deal IMC. He
went on to the airlines, and I finished up with a second instructor who
would never fly to minimums. My second instructor on the other hand, gave
me the discipline I now have in the cockpit so that I am further ahead of
the plane then I was with the first instructor. A great balance I
thought....

So, in regards to your opinion about doing circling approaches when there
is an ILS near by, well, I'd have to disagree with your opinion. If you do
not go one feet below MDA, then what is the big deal about a circle to land
approach? Bottom line, you still have to fly the plane.

Would you say I had poor judgment just because I enjoy flying in the clag,
and going down to minimums?

Allen

A Lieberman wrote:

Would you say I had poor judgment just because I enjoy flying in the clag,
and going down to minimums?

If I had performed the VOR approach accurately both times and still could
not get the airport in sight, that would be enough for me and I would have
been gone to another airport. I wouldn't have attempted a third.

Heck, if you have enough fuel, you could fly the VOR approach all day if
you wanted, but in reality, once you start flying for purpose instead of
practice, flying several approaches to the same airport is wishful
thinking... the type that has led to low fuel emergencies and fuel
exhaustion accidents.

--
Peter