Does an IPC count as a BFR?

If your flight instructor certificate only has a "instrument-airplane"
rating (i.e. no airplane single engine or Airplane multi engine)

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
. ..

"Brad Z" wrote in message
news:wgb4c.9456$bP2.70125@attbi_s53...
Not all CFII's can give BFR's.

You've lost me there. Why not?

A buddy of mine actually got his II and had no intention of getting his CFI. He since relented but that is another story.

Mike Z

"Brad Z" wrote in message news:gTl4c.16400$bP2.83279@attbi_s53...
If your flight instructor certificate only has a "instrument-airplane"
rating (i.e. no airplane single engine or Airplane multi engine)

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
. ..

"Brad Z" wrote in message
news:wgb4c.9456$bP2.70125@attbi_s53...
Not all CFII's can give BFR's.

You've lost me there. Why not?

"Brad Z" wrote in message
news:gTl4c.16400$bP2.83279@attbi_s53...
If your flight instructor certificate only has a "instrument-airplane"
rating (i.e. no airplane single engine or Airplane multi engine)


That is one of the most bizarre things I have ever heard, and that despite
the fact that I have been reading the news groups for years.... :-)

Why on earth would any instructor do that, and how could he possibly do any
CFII instruction in an airplane that he is not allowed to give instruction
in?

Someone getting an instrument rating in a tailwheel aircraft, and the
instructor doesn't have a tailwheel signoff comes to mind.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...
"Brad Z" wrote in message
news:gTl4c.16400$bP2.83279@attbi_s53...
If your flight instructor certificate only has a "instrument-airplane"
rating (i.e. no airplane single engine or Airplane multi engine)


That is one of the most bizarre things I have ever heard, and that despite
the fact that I have been reading the news groups for years.... :-)

Why on earth would any instructor do that, and how could he possibly do any
CFII instruction in an airplane that he is not allowed to give instruction
in?

....and they never enter IMC, where there would be no legal PIC.

-- David Brooks

"Doug" wrote in message
om...
Someone getting an instrument rating in a tailwheel aircraft, and the
instructor doesn't have a tailwheel signoff comes to mind.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
"Brad Z" wrote in message
news:gTl4c.16400$bP2.83279@attbi_s53...
If your flight instructor certificate only has a "instrument-airplane"
rating (i.e. no airplane single engine or Airplane multi engine)


That is one of the most bizarre things I have ever heard, and that
despite
the fact that I have been reading the news groups for years.... :-)

Why on earth would any instructor do that, and how could he possibly do
any
CFII instruction in an airplane that he is not allowed to give
instruction
in?

On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 18:50:15 -0800, "C J Campbell"
wrote:

Why on earth would any instructor do that, and how could he possibly do any
CFII instruction in an airplane that he is not allowed to give instruction
in?

I'm surprised you never came across it before.

This is a question that comes up from time to time and the common
wisdom has been that a CFI with only an "instrument airplane" rating,
but no "airplane" rating is permitted to provide instrument training
in an airplane, so long as he doesn't cross the line into teaching how
to fly the airplane itself.

Even John Lynch's Part 61 FAQ has taken this view, saying such things
as a CFII with no MEI =can't= give training in one-engine failure
during takeoff but =can= give instruction in single-engine operations
under instrument conditions.

Those FAQ paragraphs are going to become defunct. As a result of an
inquiry by Ron Levy, an instructor at the University of Maryland and a
regular contributor to Aviation Safety Magazine, the Eastern Region
FAA legal counsel has started the process of putting that one to rest.

There are still some things a CFII with no aircraft rating can do.
Ground instruction and flight training in a simulator are two of them.

As to why, it's pretty hokey, but there's some theory going around
that the CFI-I is easier, so, if you have to have an inspector for the
first ride, it might as well be the easier one.

Mark Kolber wrote
As to why, it's pretty hokey, but there's some theory going around
that the CFI-I is easier, so, if you have to have an inspector for the
first ride, it might as well be the easier one.

The real reason is a little different. For all practical purposes,
you can't rent a complex airplane that isn't decades old. Any
determined fed can ground an airplane that old, and that's normal
practice in many FSDO's. If you go for an initial CFI ride in many
cases you get three inspectors - one ops and two maintenance. The ops
inspector starts your oral, and the maintenance inspectors start going
over the airplane. Oral ends when they ground it, and you get a pink
slip and, if you have the temerity to question their determination
(airplane not airworthy because the placard is curled up/TSO tag on
seatbelt unreadable/repair or alteration logged in logbook is major,
not minor, and requires Form 337) or the inspector just doesn't like
you, you get written up for flying an unairworthy airplane as well. I
know people who have had this happen, and there's at least one CFI on
this newsgroup who has his own story of something very similar.

The CFII ride need not be in a complex airplane - and new full-IFR
C-172's are available for rent all over. It's very difficult to
ground a new airplane. Thus I recommend that anyone doing an initial
CFI go over to a place that rents new C-172's and do the CFII first.

I did my initial CFI in a glider for the same reason - a new glider
was locally available for rent, and there was no way to flunk it
because it was new and completely unmodified - everything was just the
way it came from the factory.

Michael

Related to this question of earning a CFII but not a CFI, I have not done
what follows and I am not sure the regs make sense in this area, but from a
strictly legal perspective I believe I can give an instrument proficiency
check in a multi-engine airplane even though I am not a multi-engine pilot.
My certificates are Commercial Pilot (ASEL + Instrument Airplane) and CFI
(Airplane Single Engine + Instrument Airplane).

Again I realize this may not make much sense from an instructional point of
view, but legally I do not see any reason I could not do this except (even
more oddly) that this would have to be done in actual IMC because I would
not be qualified to act as a safety pilot -- correct?

Perhaps somewhat more practically speaking, I see no reason why I could not
sign off an IPC done with my simulator (Level 3 FTD) in twin-engine mode
since I do not need to be PIC to "create" IMC in the simulator and my CFI
instrument privileges refer to instrument airplane and not specifically to
single- or multi-engine airplanes.

Indeed, extending this further, my understanding is that a non-pilot could
pass the written exam to become an Instrument Ground Instructor and then
without ever setting foot in an airplane he could do an IPC in the simulator
(again a Level 3 FTD) and this non-pilot would have the authority to sign
off the pilot of a cabin-class twin as safe to fly in IMC.

Again, I am not proposing any of these tasks as sane -- I am simply asking
whether my interpretation of the FARs is correct.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Richard Kaplan" wrote
Related to this question of earning a CFII but not a CFI, I have not done
what follows and I am not sure the regs make sense in this area, but from a
strictly legal perspective I believe I can give an instrument proficiency
check in a multi-engine airplane even though I am not a multi-engine pilot.
My certificates are Commercial Pilot (ASEL + Instrument Airplane) and CFI
(Airplane Single Engine + Instrument Airplane).

I do not believe this is correct.

61.195 Flight instructor limitations and qualifications.
A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is subject to the
following
limitations:
(b) Aircraft ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight
training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not
hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the
applicable
category and class rating; and

For purposes of an instructor certificate, there are two classes
within the airplane category - ASE and AME. For purposes of a pilot
certificate, there are four classes within the airplane category -
ASEL, ASES, AMEL, and AMES. Thus, since you do not have a pilot
certificate with airplane category and multiengine land class (AMEL)
rating, I do not believe you could legally provide flight training in
a multiengine airplane.

Perhaps somewhat more practically speaking, I see no reason why I could not
sign off an IPC done with my simulator (Level 3 FTD) in twin-engine mode
since I do not need to be PIC to "create" IMC in the simulator and my CFI
instrument privileges refer to instrument airplane and not specifically to
single- or multi-engine airplanes.

You may be right, but this would be meaningless.

61.57(d)(1) The instrument proficiency check must be --
(i) In an aircraft that is appropriate to the aircraft category;
(ii) For other than a glider, in a flight simulator or flight training
device
that is representative of the aircraft category;

Note that there is no requirement for the simulator to be
representative of the class of aircraft, only the category. There is
no requirement for a multiengine pilot to take his IPC in a
multiengine airplane - any airplane will do. I see no reason why you
couldn't do this, but I also see no reason why anyone would ever want
to. It would have no regulatory purpose, and if you lack multinegine
experience it would have no practical purpose either.

Indeed, extending this further, my understanding is that a non-pilot could
pass the written exam to become an Instrument Ground Instructor and then
without ever setting foot in an airplane he could do an IPC in the simulator
(again a Level 3 FTD) and this non-pilot would have the authority to sign
off the pilot of a cabin-class twin as safe to fly in IMC.

Maybe, but I don't see that as obvious.

61.215 Ground instructor privileges.
(c) A person who holds an instrument ground instructor rating is
authorized to
provide:
(2) Ground training required for an instrument proficiency check;

61.57(d)(2) The instrument proficiency check must be given by --
(iv) An authorized instructor;

So the question would be - is the sim training ground or flight
training? If it's ground training, then an IGI would be an authorized
instructor and this would be legal. If it's flight training, then he
would not be authorized and it wouldn't be legal.

Michael

--
--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com
"Michael" wrote in message
om...
"Richard Kaplan" wrote
Related to this question of earning a CFII but not a CFI, I have not
done
what follows and I am not sure the regs make sense in this area, but
from a
strictly legal perspective I believe I can give an instrument
proficiency
check in a multi-engine airplane even though I am not a multi-engine
pilot.
My certificates are Commercial Pilot (ASEL + Instrument Airplane) and
CFI
(Airplane Single Engine + Instrument Airplane).

I do not believe this is correct.

61.195 Flight instructor limitations and qualifications.
A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is subject to the
following
limitations:
(b) Aircraft ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight
training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not
hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the
applicable
category and class rating; and

For purposes of an instructor certificate, there are two classes
within the airplane category - ASE and AME. For purposes of a pilot
certificate, there are four classes within the airplane category -
ASEL, ASES, AMEL, and AMES. Thus, since you do not have a pilot
certificate with airplane category and multiengine land class (AMEL)
rating, I do not believe you could legally provide flight training in
a multiengine airplane.

Perhaps somewhat more practically speaking, I see no reason why I could
not
sign off an IPC done with my simulator (Level 3 FTD) in twin-engine mode
since I do not need to be PIC to "create" IMC in the simulator and my
CFI
instrument privileges refer to instrument airplane and not specifically
to
single- or multi-engine airplanes.

You may be right, but this would be meaningless.

61.57(d)(1) The instrument proficiency check must be --
(i) In an aircraft that is appropriate to the aircraft category;
(ii) For other than a glider, in a flight simulator or flight training
device
that is representative of the aircraft category;

Note that there is no requirement for the simulator to be
representative of the class of aircraft, only the category. There is
no requirement for a multiengine pilot to take his IPC in a
multiengine airplane - any airplane will do. I see no reason why you
couldn't do this, but I also see no reason why anyone would ever want
to. It would have no regulatory purpose, and if you lack multinegine
experience it would have no practical purpose either.

Indeed, extending this further, my understanding is that a non-pilot
could
pass the written exam to become an Instrument Ground Instructor and then
without ever setting foot in an airplane he could do an IPC in the
simulator
(again a Level 3 FTD) and this non-pilot would have the authority to
sign
off the pilot of a cabin-class twin as safe to fly in IMC.

Maybe, but I don't see that as obvious.

61.215 Ground instructor privileges.
(c) A person who holds an instrument ground instructor rating is
authorized to
provide:
(2) Ground training required for an instrument proficiency check;

61.57(d)(2) The instrument proficiency check must be given by --
(iv) An authorized instructor;

So the question would be - is the sim training ground or flight
training? If it's ground training, then an IGI would be an authorized
instructor and this would be legal. If it's flight training, then he
would not be authorized and it wouldn't be legal.

Michael