Some bad controllers

Matthew S. Whiting wrote:

Does the ATC controller then intiate SAR if the pilot hasn't called in
within 30 minutes or so?

You are never out of contact with ATC, how could this be a factor.


I'm real nervous now if you are telling me
that it is up to the last controller to initiate SAR if a flight plan
isn't closed by the pilot.

You are flying to East Podunk towered airport, talking to the center.
You call the airport in sight and the center controller clears you for
the visual or you are given a regular approach. At about 10 miles out
the center tells you to cantact the tower. The tower already knows you
are coming. Now, what is there to worry about?


I always assumed some computer somewhere
kept track of open flight plans and automatically kicked something out
if one was still open at some time past the ETA.

Not for IFR, just VFR.


Seems nuts to be that something as critical as SAR initiation for an
overdue airplane wouldn't be automated when it is so easy to do so.
These are the things computers do best.

ATC is talking to you at all times. That is much better than a computer
keeping track of you.

"Newps" wrote in message
news:HNE5c.21813$_w.486759@attbi_s53...

You are never out of contact with ATC, how could this be a factor.


You're not in contact with ATC when you've switched to CTAF.



ATC is talking to you at all times. That is much better than a computer
keeping track of you.


ATC is NOT necessarily talking to you at all times. Even while enroute
there are areas without direct pilot/controller communications.

Newps wrote:


Matthew S. Whiting wrote:

Does the ATC controller then intiate SAR if the pilot hasn't called in
within 30 minutes or so?


You are never out of contact with ATC, how could this be a factor.

There are lots of airports here in northern PA where you can't talk to
the controller on the ground after landing.


I'm real nervous now if you are telling me

that it is up to the last controller to initiate SAR if a flight plan
isn't closed by the pilot.


You are flying to East Podunk towered airport, talking to the center.
You call the airport in sight and the center controller clears you for
the visual or you are given a regular approach. At about 10 miles out
the center tells you to cantact the tower. The tower already knows you
are coming. Now, what is there to worry about?

The two airports I landed at most frequently after IFR flights are N38
and 7N1. Neither have control towers, nor even a human around much of
the time.


I always assumed some computer somewhere

kept track of open flight plans and automatically kicked something out
if one was still open at some time past the ETA.


Not for IFR, just VFR.

Interesting that a VFR flight plan is more automated than an IFR flight
plan.


Seems nuts to be that something as critical as SAR initiation for an
overdue airplane wouldn't be automated when it is so easy to do so.
These are the things computers do best.


ATC is talking to you at all times. That is much better than a computer
keeping track of you.

Not always, see above. If you are flying into a towered airport, this
is true. Not all IFR flights end at towered airports. I typically
cancelled in the air when flying into N38 or 7N1, however, if the
weather was marginal or if the runway condition was unknown (winter), I
didn't want to cancel until I was on the ground. This required a phone
call. You are saying that if I didn't make this phone call and the last
controller I talked with forgot about me, I could be laying in a ditch
in the snow for hours???


Matt

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

Not always, see above. If you are flying into a towered airport, this
is true. Not all IFR flights end at towered airports. I typically
cancelled in the air when flying into N38 or 7N1, however, if the
weather was marginal or if the runway condition was unknown (winter), I
didn't want to cancel until I was on the ground. This required a phone
call. You are saying that if I didn't make this phone call and the last
controller I talked with forgot about me, I could be laying in a ditch
in the snow for hours???


Well, there's a strip in front of him showing that you were cleared for
approach but hadn't yet cancelled IFR to remind him. What would you want to
see done differently?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

Not always, see above. If you are flying into a towered airport, this
is true. Not all IFR flights end at towered airports. I typically
cancelled in the air when flying into N38 or 7N1, however, if the
weather was marginal or if the runway condition was unknown (winter), I
didn't want to cancel until I was on the ground. This required a phone
call. You are saying that if I didn't make this phone call and the last
controller I talked with forgot about me, I could be laying in a ditch
in the snow for hours???



Well, there's a strip in front of him showing that you were cleared for
approach but hadn't yet cancelled IFR to remind him. What would you want to
see done differently?



What happens to the strip when I close my flight plan? What happens to
it if I don't?


Matt

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

What happens to the strip when I close my flight plan?


It goes into the discard pile.



What happens to it if I don't?


It stays in front of the controller until he acts upon it.

Just this morning I cleared an Aztec for the VOR/DME RWY 35 approach at MTW,
an untowered field. About three miles outside of the FAF I told the
aircraft, "report canceling IFR on this frequency, change to advisory
frequency approved, I have no other targets in the Manitowoc area." I last
observed his target about three miles south of the field. The RTR is
located on the field and there are no pavement areas accessible by aircraft
where communications presents a problem, so all the guy had to do to cancel
was switch back to approach frequency, he didn't have to scramble to find a
working telephone somewhere or anything like that. Ten minutes after last
observing his target he still had not cancelled, so I started looking for
him. But I didn't follow any of the book procedures for overdue aircraft, I
just called the FBO. I identified myself and told the receptionist I was
looking for an aircraft that hadn't cancelled IFR. Before I could describe
the airplane to her, she said, "Is it Aztec N1234A? He's here on the ramp."
[name changed to protect the forgetful] I thanked her and pitched the strip
into the discard pile. Had it been after hours for the FBO I would have
called the local constabulary and they would have sent a car out to see if
the airplane was there.

Now, how would you automate that?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
I just called the FBO.

Just out of curiosity, can you make a PSTN (Public Switched Telephone
Network) call from your radar station? Are the calls recorded?

I've heard that you're not allowed to accept IFR cancellations which are
relayed via other aircraft. Is this correct? If so, how can you do so
based on a phone call with some desk jockey at an FBO?

On a marginally related topic, my club had a talk recently about
in-flight medical emergencies. Let's say you were working me and I
said, "I've got a medical emergency, landing Podunk Municipal, get an
ambulance to meet me there" and then disappeared from the frequency.
What would you do? Do you have the resources/authority to get a medical
team dispatched to Podunk?

Roy Smith wrote:



Just out of curiosity, can you make a PSTN (Public Switched Telephone
Network) call from your radar station? Are the calls recorded?

We have access to outside lines from the ETVS, which is the panel in
front of the controller that controls all his communications. It is a
touch screen panel. For example when I want to call the FBO on the
field I simply hit the preprogrammed button labeled "Eddy" and the phone
dials Edwards Jet Center on the field. All the other important numbers
are thusly programmed. These lines are all recorded. We also have a
regular telephone that any office would have with access to the same
phone lines, just not recorded.



I've heard that you're not allowed to accept IFR cancellations which are
relayed via other aircraft. Is this correct?

No.


If so, how can you do so
based on a phone call with some desk jockey at an FBO?

Any call saying an aircraft has landed is good enough, recorded or not.



On a marginally related topic, my club had a talk recently about
in-flight medical emergencies. Let's say you were working me and I
said, "I've got a medical emergency, landing Podunk Municipal, get an
ambulance to meet me there" and then disappeared from the frequency.
What would you do?

Get an ambulance over there.


Do you have the resources/authority to get a medical
team dispatched to Podunk?

Yep, happens frequently. We also call in a lot of forest and grass
fires in the summer and early fall. I almost had to go to court because
I saw a fight in the parking lot at the airport and they were trying to
charge the wrong guy with assault.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

Just out of curiosity, can you make a PSTN (Public Switched Telephone
Network) call from your radar station?


Yup.



Are the calls recorded?


Yup.



I've heard that you're not allowed to accept IFR cancellations which are
relayed via other aircraft. Is this correct?


Nope.



On a marginally related topic, my club had a talk recently about
in-flight medical emergencies. Let's say you were working me and I
said, "I've got a medical emergency, landing Podunk Municipal, get an
ambulance to meet me there" and then disappeared from the frequency.
What would you do?


I'd relay the request to somebody at Podunk; the tower, FBO, sherriff, etc.



Do you have the resources/authority to get a medical
team dispatched to Podunk?


Well, anybody can call 911.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
I just called the FBO.

Just out of curiosity, can you make a PSTN (Public Switched Telephone
Network) call from your radar station? Are the calls recorded?

For ARTCC's, we can't access a PSTN from the Sector (at least in my
facility). However, there is a PSTN in the ARTCC with dozens of commercial
phone lines and phones at each supervisor position in each Area. We have
access to literally hundreds of phone numbers, from law enforcement at our
airports to emergency services to FBO's to airline dispatch offices, ARINC
etc.


I've heard that you're not allowed to accept IFR cancellations which are
relayed via other aircraft. Is this correct?

This is not correct. We can.

On a marginally related topic, my club had a talk recently about
in-flight medical emergencies. Let's say you were working me and I
said, "I've got a medical emergency, landing Podunk Municipal, get an
ambulance to meet me there" and then disappeared from the frequency.
What would you do? Do you have the resources/authority to get a medical
team dispatched to Podunk?

Yep. In the ARTCC's, we keep an updated index file on computer of hundreds
of emergency contact phone numbers for the airspace we serve. Going in to
Podunk, we would look up the emergency services for Podunk, place an
official sounding, recorded, urgent emergency call from FAA, and do our best
to get an ambulance to you if it was possible.

In Center airspace out in the boonies, you might have to make do with
whatever showed up at the airport though. One of the fun extra-duty jobs
I've had was verifying the Center's fire and emergency services numbers a
few years ago (something we do every year as part of facility SOP). I
called the official emergency number for Gilmer County Airport up in the
Blue Ridge of North Georgia.

"Yaller? Airport."

"Hello, this is the FAA Atlanta Air Traffic Control Center calling to verify
that this phone number is for emergency services at 49A."

"Say whut?"

"Err, this is the Federal Aviation Administration calling. Is this Gilmer
County Airport?"

"Weel yes sah, it's Gilma Counee, sheer is..."

"Err, could I speak with the airfield emergency services dispatcher?"

"He ain't here- he's out on the ambulance."

"How about the airport manager? I'm trying to verify that this is still a
good aircraft emergency contact number."

"Dang it, hold on..." He put down the phone, went to a door and yelled:
"Hey Jed! JED! Hey! It the Fed's! HEY JED DAMMIT! CLIMB ON DOWN AN'
COME 'ERE! PHONE CALL FROM THE FFA!"

"Sorry about that mister, he was out on the ambulance mowing the airport..."

Here's your sign....

Chip, ZTL