Procedure Turn

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

Let's say you're 20 miles out, bearing 162 to HPN (i.e. 5 NW of
FARAN, see
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...s/00651I16.pdf).
The controller says, "Cruise 3000, radar service terminated, frequency
change approved, have a nice night".


Couldn't come up with a real-world scenario? Whatever, I'll play, but more
information is needed. What's the routing that brought you to that point 5
NW of FARAN?

In article .net,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

Let's say you're 20 miles out, bearing 162 to HPN (i.e. 5 NW of
FARAN, see
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/...s/00651I16.pdf).
The controller says, "Cruise 3000, radar service terminated, frequency
change approved, have a nice night".


Couldn't come up with a real-world scenario? Whatever, I'll play, but more
information is needed. What's the routing that brought you to that point 5
NW of FARAN?

With the exception of the cruise clearance, it's pretty real-world.
Coming from that direction, I've been asked to intercept the localizer
25-30 miles out.

But, OK, if you'll play, I'll play. Remember, though, the game we're
playing is "How should you fly this clearance", not "Let's argue about
whether NY Approach would ever issue a cruise clearance". If you don't
want to play my game, I'm picking up my airplane and my microphone and
going home :-)

How about I had just departed Minard Farms, NY (1NY7). I got my
clearance from FSS on the phone, "ATC clears N-25629 to the White Plains
Airport via direct. Maintain 3000, departure frequency is 132.75,
squawk 1234. Clearance void if not off by 0700. Time now is 0648".

Direct course from 1NY7 to HPN is 170. By the time I completed my
initial departure to the west to avoid the high towers east of the
airport, and turned on course, HPN was bearing 162.

At that time, NY Approach finally responded to my radio call and gave me
"Radar contact, 5 southwest of Minard. Proceed on course, maintain
3000". Sometime later, the controller handed me off to 126.4. The
controller on that frequency gave me the cruise clearance quoted above.

At that point, you tune in the AWOS and hear that the weather at HPN is
800 overcast and 5 miles, wind 160 at 10. What would be your course of
action?

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

With the exception of the cruise clearance, it's pretty real-world.
Coming from that direction, I've been asked to intercept the localizer
25-30 miles out.

But, OK, if you'll play, I'll play. Remember, though, the game we're
playing is "How should you fly this clearance", not "Let's argue about
whether NY Approach would ever issue a cruise clearance". If you
don't want to play my game, I'm picking up my airplane and my
microphone and going home :-)


Well, if it's "pretty real-world", it means ATC isn't following FAAO
7110.65. There's no benefit to playing the game if everyone isn't playing
by the rules.



How about I had just departed Minard Farms, NY (1NY7). I got my
clearance from FSS on the phone, "ATC clears N-25629 to the White Plains
Airport via direct. Maintain 3000, departure frequency is
132.75, squawk 1234. Clearance void if not off by 0700. Time
now is 0648".

Direct course from 1NY7 to HPN is 170. By the time I completed my
initial departure to the west to avoid the high towers east of the
airport, and turned on course, HPN was bearing 162.

At that time, NY Approach finally responded to my radio call and
gave me "Radar contact, 5 southwest of Minard. Proceed on
course, maintain 3000". Sometime later, the controller handed me
off to 126.4. The controller on that frequency gave me the cruise
clearance quoted above.

At that point, you tune in the AWOS and hear that the weather at
HPN is 800 overcast and 5 miles, wind 160 at 10. What would
be your course of action?


You can't get to that point if everyone is playing by the rules. At the
point ATC terminated radar service you were on a route that required radar
monitoring by ATC. Termination of radar service at that point requires
issuance of nonradar routing.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message

At that point, you tune in the AWOS and hear that the weather at HPN
is 800 overcast and 5 miles, wind 160 at 10. What would be your
course of action?


Contact Approach and ask for an approach clearance.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_s...veloperid=4415
____________________

Here's a real-world scenario that I've encountered:

VOR 22 approach to GED (Georgetown, DE):

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/publis...s/00935V22.PDF

Coming from the northeast, on the 057 radial inbound to ATR (Victor 308),
Dover Approach says "cross Waterloo at 3000, cleared for the VOR 22 approach".
Since my course is now 237, I'm only three degrees off the final approach
course of 234. There's no "No PT" sector shown, and the charted hold in lieu
of a PT would put me on the 033 radial, with a 23 degree turn at the FAF.
Obviously it makes no sense to do a turn in the hold, and Dover didn't expect
me to, but some people would claim it's required. Is Dover doing anything
contrary to 7110.65?

Barry

"Barry" wrote in message
...

Here's a real-world scenario that I've encountered:

VOR 22 approach to GED (Georgetown, DE):

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/publis...s/00935V22.PDF

Coming from the northeast, on the 057 radial inbound to ATR (Victor 308),
Dover Approach says "cross Waterloo at 3000, cleared for the VOR 22
approach".
Since my course is now 237, I'm only three degrees off the final approach
course of 234. There's no "No PT" sector shown, and the charted hold in
lieu
of a PT would put me on the 033 radial, with a 23 degree turn at the FAF.
Obviously it makes no sense to do a turn in the hold, and Dover didn't
expect
me to, but some people would claim it's required. Is Dover doing anything
contrary to 7110.65?


Nope.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Barry" wrote in message
...

Here's a real-world scenario that I've encountered:

VOR 22 approach to GED (Georgetown, DE):

http://www.naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/publis...s/00935V22.PDF

Coming from the northeast, on the 057 radial inbound to ATR (Victor
308),
Dover Approach says "cross Waterloo at 3000, cleared for the VOR 22
approach".
Since my course is now 237, I'm only three degrees off the final
approach
course of 234. There's no "No PT" sector shown, and the charted hold in
lieu
of a PT would put me on the 033 radial, with a 23 degree turn at the
FAF.
Obviously it makes no sense to do a turn in the hold, and Dover didn't
expect
me to, but some people would claim it's required. Is Dover doing
anything
contrary to 7110.65?


Nope.



So are you saying the turn around the hold is not legally required here?
Why not?

Thanks,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

So are you saying the turn around the hold is not legally required here?
Why not?


I said nothing at all like that. The question was; "Is Dover doing anything
contrary to 7110.65?" They aren't. The pilot was cleared via an airway and
the IAF was a VOR on that airway. That's a perfectly good clearance.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
link.net...

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

So are you saying the turn around the hold is not legally required here?
Why not?


I said nothing at all like that. The question was; "Is Dover doing
anything
contrary to 7110.65?" They aren't. The pilot was cleared via an airway
and
the IAF was a VOR on that airway. That's a perfectly good clearance.



Ok, then I'm asking you: "Is the turn around the hold legally required
here?"

Thanks,
John

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

Ok, then I'm asking you: "Is the turn around the hold legally required
here?"


I don't think so. A procedure turn is "the maneuver prescribed when it is
necessary to reverse direction to establish an aircraft on the intermediate
approach segment or final approach course." Obviously it isn't necessary to
reverse direction in this case. Part 91 states when a procedure turn may
not be flown, it has not a word on when a procedure turn must be flown.