Busted IFR Checkride

Jon Kraus wrote:
Took my IFR checkride today and busted... I screwed up the holding
pattern big time and that was that... At first I was so damn fustrated
that I told the DE that I just want to head back to the airport... Then
I thought to myself "what are you going to do there pout?" :-) I then
decided to go ahead with the rest of the ride and get it out of the way.
I did OK... not great but passable... This DE made it pretty easy on
me... He was telling me about his IFR checkride and him busting on his
first attempt too... He busted on the holding pattern too so I didn't
feel that bad.. He now has 14,000+ hours and doesn't worry about his
busted IFR checkride so I figured why should I... Now I just need to go
back up with my instructor once, do the freakn' holding pattern... Go
back up with the DE... do the freakn' holding pattern and be done...
More to follow...

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL
Student-IA Argggg...


He's right, don't sweat it. I've never yet flown a holding pattern on a
real IFR flight. Well, I flew a holding "pattern" over DC one evening
on an IFR flight into Washington National, but it was VMC and the hold
consisted of flying circles over a spot the controller told me to fly
around! So my circles around a point training for my private was of
greater use than my holding pattern instruction. :-)


Matt

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
I never understood why holding patterns are so damn important. I have
received a holding clearance only once in my life. Why are they required
for the recency experience and the checkride? Also, why are the entry
procedures so important? Is there any example where an incorrect entry
procedure would have caused an accident?

My instructor told me I needed to learn the proper entries to keep the
DE happy, but in the real world the issue was to remain on the protected
side of the pattern and within the distance limits of the fix.


Matt

David Brooks wrote:

As I said recently, fly approaches into a popular untowered airport enough
times, and you'll get held while the controller tries to confirm the guy
before you really landed.

Good point. Most of my IFR flights have been to towered airports.

--
Peter

A Lieberman wrote in
:

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

Also, why are the entry
procedures so important? Is there any example where an incorrect
entry procedure would have caused an accident?

My guess on this question is....

You don't bump into someone in the soup doing a proper entry.

The proper entry makes it so that ATC can anticipate / predict your
next move, knowing how the entry to the hold from your direction of
travel.

Just like working in the pattern at an uncontrolled airport, you would
want people to enter the pattern appropriately to keep things neat and
orderly.

Don't want some one doing a right hand pattern at a left hand pattern
airport....

Allen


I can understand that a recommended entry will keep things neat and
tidy. But that can't be the reason for requiring holds for recency
experience. It's got to be something more important than that. A hold
ranks way up there with an instrument approach when it comes to
currency.

A VFR traffic pattern is not a fair comparison because the traffic
pattern could packed full of airplanes bumper to bumper. That can't be
the case under IFR. I am not sure what kind of separation is used by ATC
when in a hold. It can't be that close because the turn radius depends
on the aircraft speed. During the outbound turn from the holding fix, a
Citation will go past the holding fix much farther than a 172.

A Lieberman wrote:

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

Also, why are the entry
procedures so important? Is there any example where an incorrect entry
procedure would have caused an accident?

My guess on this question is....

You don't bump into someone in the soup doing a proper entry.

The proper entry makes it so that ATC can anticipate / predict your next
move, knowing how the entry to the hold from your direction of travel.

From ATC's perspective, there is lots of protected airspace for a holding
pattern, unless you are holding at max speed (almost never less than 200
knots).

The entires are part of the criteria design to assure that you don't depart
protected airspace.

Some folks never get holds. Other, especially those who use the IFR system
often, get lots of holds. Most of them are direct entries, however.

Holding entries and figuring out the proper side is a great tool for an
examiner or inspector to determine whether the applicant has a good feeling
for what it is all about.

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
I am not sure what kind of separation is used by ATC
when in a hold. It can't be that close because the turn radius depends
on the aircraft speed. During the outbound turn from the holding fix, a
Citation will go past the holding fix much farther than a 172.

Of course. All this is covered in TERPS

http://av-info.faa.gov/terps/directives%20page.htm

If you read the chapter on holds, you will know more than you ever
wanted to about how these things are figured out. Faster airplanes are
allotted more protected airspace.

"Peter R." wrote in message =
...
David Brooks wrote:=20
=20
As I said recently, fly approaches into a popular untowered airport =
enough
times, and you'll get held while the controller tries to confirm the =
guy
before you really landed.=20
=20
Good point. Most of my IFR flights have been to towered airports.=20
=20
--=20
Peter
=20

You'll often see holds for traffic at some towered airports, too.
Places like Hailey, Idaho (Sun Valley's airport) are situated in a box =
canyon.
Hailey is far below Salt Lake Center's radar coverage, and there's only
one way in and back out, so only one IFR aircraft will be operating at a =
time.
In VMC, Hailey tower advises everyone, coming and going,
"Remain to the right of the highway".

South Lake Tahoe, California, comes to mind as another place like that.
(Except of course there's no highway up the middle of lake Tahoe :-)

Before Aspen got their radar, the situation there was similar, also .
It used to be considered courteous for Aspen arrivals to cancel IFR
as soon as the field was in sight, so a departing aircraft could be =
released.
---JRC---

Jon Kraus wrote:

Took my IFR checkride today and busted... I screwed up the holding
pattern big time and that was that...

Hey Jon,

Appreciate your post. I am getting closer to that time.... What part
of holding did you bust, timing? Entry? Suggestions for my check ride
to come down the road???

Allen

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
. 158...
I never understood why holding patterns are so damn important. I have
received a holding clearance only once in my life. Why are they required
for the recency experience and the checkride?


People could say that about learning to do full approaches - many places you
get vectors all the time. In fact, my instructor joked that the pilots in
my area were so poorly prepared that they should be issued a "Long Island
Radar Vector" rating.

A hold is a pretty basic maneuver - if you can't do it you have no business
with an instrument rating.


Also, why are the entry
procedures so important? Is there any example where an incorrect entry
procedure would have caused an accident?







"Bob Gardner" wrote in
news:llYhc.4783$YP5.441855@attbi_s02:

Not a biggie. Life goes on. Sorry that it happened, but considering
that you will spend an infinitesimal amount of time actually holding
in real life (not counting doing it to stay current), you got the
important stuff behind you.

Bob Gardner

"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...
Took my IFR checkride today and busted... I screwed up the holding
pattern big time and that was that... At first I was so damn
fustrated that I told the DE that I just want to head back to the
airport... Then I thought to myself "what are you going to do there
pout?" :-) I then decided to go ahead with the rest of the ride
and get it out of the way. I did OK... not great but passable...
This DE made it pretty easy on me... He was telling me about his IFR
checkride and him busting on his first attempt too... He busted on
the holding pattern too so I didn't feel that bad.. He now has
14,000+ hours and doesn't worry about his busted IFR checkride so I
figured why should I... Now I just need to go back up with my
instructor once, do the freakn' holding pattern... Go back up with
the DE... do the freakn' holding pattern and be done... More to
follow...

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL
Student-IA Argggg...

This DE is actually a very nice guy... He just had to do what he had to
do... I was too far outside of PTS and that gave him no choice... I know
he wants me to pass and next time I'm sure I will... He called me later
in the day to see how I was and let me know that even though busting a
checkride is is an ego deflation it is not the end of the world... He is
even cool enough to not charge me for either the initial checkride or
the retake because I agreed to be his first IFR exam... He has a ton of
Private Pilot exams behind him but I am his first Instrument ride.
Actually the FAA examiner was very nice too.. She said she felt bad that
I failed too and that she thought that her being there might had
contributed to my "case of the nerves". I don't think so at all... I
basically just plain ****ed up... No more no less.. I appreciate
everyone support on this... I knew you all would understand... Thanks
again. Jon

A Lieberman wrote:

Jon Kraus wrote:



Basically just nerves mostly... A couple of things contributed to
that. One was that I agreed to be this DE's first IFR checkride...
that being so, we had the FAA examiner with us examining him... My
oral was 3 hours long and this about wiped me out...



Holy cows Jon, your luck must be like mine except I had a DE that had
zillions of examinations behind him and he was accompanied by an FAA
examiner for my VFR license. I am not sure if you have been following
my progress, but you, at least fared out better, as I busted the oral
part! I didn't even get to fly.

It was brutal, as just like you, I spent a good 2 1/2 hours just on the
oral. I was told that because the FAA examiner was in with us, he had
to be STRICTLY by the book. The retake was much more relaxed (without
the FAA examiner) and of course covered things that I missed. Simple
things in retrospect, but I knew my nerves took over on me. DE said
next time I come out, I am looking to pass you. He felt bad, I could
really tell.



This morning we were to
do the flight portion of the test... I had everything set up for my
clearance and was told after take off to intercept V305 and head
north. I was then to to hold at the WELDO intersection... I was
thinking cool I have done exact thing several times... What I didn't
realize is that V305 is real close to V96 and I had tuned in the wrong
redial on the OBS... When things didn't start centering when they
should have I began to double check and caught my error.. By the time
I determined what was wrong I had blown through the intersection and
that threw me for a loop... I got confused and that is when the DE
said that it was an unsat maneuver... Really no excuses...



Like you said, it's nerves, and call it the human factor. Knowing you
had done it before, you should pass with flying colors the next time
Weldo intersection comes in your future. The whole process is nerve
wracking!



and will take responsibility... Look for my post next Wednesday that I
passed the recheck :-)



Look forward to this!

For me, I am just beginning the cross country part of my training.
Saturday will be my first CC (MBO to MEI). My choices of approaches are
very limited, as I don't have an ADF and only have a VFR only GPS in my
plane. So for my 3 approaches on my examination, would be VOR, ILS and
LOC approaches. I have a DME, so that can be used in the mix (DME Arc).
My instructor has been making me do back course approaches into JAN,
which I have to keep saying, pull the needle in, pull the needle in.
Really sensitive approach I have been told and experienced. So far, I
have 72 approaches into MBO, JAN and HKS. I think my instructor is
looking for a "change" :-))

As far as holds, he has had me try three different times. One time, it
was brutal as it was 10 seconds out bound, and 1 minute 30 seconds
inbound due to the winds aloft. We got it on the third go round.

Again, good luck on your retake. Sounds like you've been there, so it's
a matter of doing it, and not needing "luck"

Thanks for replying!

Allen