ATC says wrong position

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 16:28:40 GMT, Greg Esres wrote:

I guess I'm not understanding the circumstance clearly, that might
lead someone to use that kind of information as an "OK to descend"
point.

When being vectored outside the FAF, ATC will say, "You're 4 miles
from x, turn left heading 210, maintain 2,500 until established,
cleared for the approach".

If you are between the IF and the FAF (as they said you were), then
the published altitude is 2,000. If you are outside the IF, the
published altitude remains 2,500.

If ATC says you're 4 miles outside the FAF, but you're really 4 miles
outside the IF, then if you descend based on that info, you've screwed
up.



OK, I understand now. I'm not an instructor, so I can only repeat back
what I learned years ago. I think my approach would be to emphasize to the
student the importance of situational awareness in all instances, and the
attitude that he is the one flying and responsible.

An intermediate segment is usually at least five miles long. So if all of
a sudden ATC places the pilot 5+ miles from where the pilot thinks he is,
that should trigger an immediate reaction to verify position.

I think students (and advanced pilots) sometimes fall into the trap of
allowing/expecting too much hand-holding from ATC. That may be more true
in certain areas of the country than others. So I think it's extremely
important to emphasize SA, responsibility, and the importance of being on a
published segment of the approach (and knowing exactly where you are)
before beginning a descent.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

I think my approach would be to emphasize to the student the
importance of situational awareness in all instances, and the
attitude that he is the one flying and responsible...I think students
(and advanced pilots) sometimes fall into the trap of
allowing/expecting too much hand-holding from ATC.

I agree with all you said.

I've been aware of this problem with ATC for a while and use it to
illustrate to students how important it is for THEM to be in charge.

I was just curious as to 1) how often others had noticed this, and 2)
who was using this information in order to descend to intermediate
altitudes.

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 19:49:50 GMT, Greg Esres wrote:

I think my approach would be to emphasize to the student the
importance of situational awareness in all instances, and the
attitude that he is the one flying and responsible...I think students
(and advanced pilots) sometimes fall into the trap of
allowing/expecting too much hand-holding from ATC.

I agree with all you said.

I've been aware of this problem with ATC for a while and use it to
illustrate to students how important it is for THEM to be in charge.

I was just curious as to 1) how often others had noticed this, and 2)
who was using this information in order to descend to intermediate
altitudes.


I cannot recall ever hearing ATC give me a "distance from" an incorrect fix
during an approach clearance. 90% of my flying is in the NE receiving
radar services.

Also, my recollection (and I could be wrong here), is that during the times
I get a "maintain ....ft until established" clearance, it's for a precision
approach. For non-precision approaches, I've received a "maintain ...ft
until crossing xyz"


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

Also, my recollection (and I could be wrong here), is that during the times
I get a "maintain ....ft until established" clearance, it's for a precision
approach. For non-precision approaches, I've received a "maintain ...ft
until crossing xyz"


"Crossing" is to be used if they vector you to a non-published extension of an
approach course. "Established" is to be used if they vector you onto a
published segment of an approach. Precision or non-precision makes no
difference.

(Ref 711065P, 5-9-1, and all associated notes, and 5-9-4, and all associated
notes.)