FAA Control tower Abandoned

I just recall that out here in the "fly over country" FAA
towers with a scheduled air carrier flight due to arrive
stay open a few extra minutes. In the case of Raytheon
[Beech] their tower is private and they pay the bill. Most
towers are federal and the taxpayers pay the bill.
It is too bad that union rules, FAA rules and company
procedures could not work together to have the passengers in
comfort at their desired destination.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote
in message
.net...
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:deLag.21814$ZW3.6700@dukeread04...
|
| Op-spec probably. FAA tower close often, many are
| part-time. If there was a scheduled flight in-bound the
| crew should have stayed a little overtime.
|
|
| Why? Who's going to pay the overtime? Southwest?
|
|
|
| But if the tower
| is closed, no clearance is available for landing,
|
|
| Nor is one required for landing.
|
|
|
| but as
| long as the last weather observation is current [less
than
| an hour] an IFR approach can be made under Part 91.
|
|
| PVD has an ASOS, weather observations are available 24/7.
|
|

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:4qPag.21830$ZW3.19509@dukeread04...

I just recall that out here in the "fly over country" FAA
towers with a scheduled air carrier flight due to arrive
stay open a few extra minutes.


Which?



It is too bad that union rules, FAA rules and company
procedures could not work together to have the passengers in
comfort at their desired destination.


It appears to be solely company procedures that kept the passengers from
their destination. No FAA rule prevents them from landing when the tower is
closed.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote

The FAA spokesman said at least one of the Southwest flights missed an
approach. Did they begin an approach when the observed weather was
below minimums?

It appears to be solely company procedures that kept the passengers
from their destination. No FAA rule prevents them from landing when
the tower is closed.

Ah...Steven....playing with words again? One certainly can't land if
he is prohibited from conducting the required Instrument Approach can
he?

From kstan92's earlier post.....

I looked at the weather history on Weather Underground and PVD reported
visibilities in the 0.1 and 0.2 range around midnight that night, below
the standard ILS minimums for PVD. The Cat II and Cat III approaches
(both to ry 5) are not authorized when the tower is not in operation
according to the U.S. Terminal Procedures for PVD.

Tower not in operation...can't approach...can't approach...can't land.

As far as starting the approach with weather below minimums....sure he
can.....just can't proceed past the final approach fix...

From FAR 121

(b) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no pilot may
continue an approach past the final approach fix, or where a final
approach fix is not used, begin the final approach segment of an
instrument approach procedure—

(2) At airports within the United States and its territories or at U.S.
military airports, unless the latest weather report for that airport
issued by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by that
Service, or a source approved by the Administrator, reports the
visibility to be equal to or more than the visibility minimums
prescribed for that procedure.

So....he started the approach and discontinued it at the FAF.

So...as he said, the FAA (rules) would not permit him to land under the
existing wx conditions with the tower closed, so he missed the approach
at the FAF.

You and your stupid word games.

Bob Moore

"Bob Moore" wrote in message
. 121...

Ah...Steven....playing with words again?


Never.



One certainly can't land if
he is prohibited from conducting the required Instrument Approach can
he?


Certainly not.



From kstan92's earlier post.....

I looked at the weather history on Weather Underground and PVD reported
visibilities in the 0.1 and 0.2 range around midnight that night, below
the standard ILS minimums for PVD. The Cat II and Cat III approaches
(both to ry 5) are not authorized when the tower is not in operation
according to the U.S. Terminal Procedures for PVD.

Tower not in operation...can't approach...can't approach...can't land.

As far as starting the approach with weather below minimums....sure he
can.....just can't proceed past the final approach fix...

From FAR 121

(b) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no pilot may
continue an approach past the final approach fix, or where a final
approach fix is not used, begin the final approach segment of an
instrument approach procedure-

(2) At airports within the United States and its territories or at U.S.
military airports, unless the latest weather report for that airport
issued by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by that
Service, or a source approved by the Administrator, reports the
visibility to be equal to or more than the visibility minimums
prescribed for that procedure.

So....he started the approach and discontinued it at the FAF.

So...as he said, the FAA (rules) would not permit him to land under the
existing wx conditions with the tower closed, so he missed the approach
at the FAF.

You and your stupid word games.


What stupid word games? I don't have a former air carrier pilot's viewpoint
on these things, but you do. Please explain to me the purpose in beginning
an approach that cannot be continued beyond the FAF.

Jim Macklin wrote:
I just recall that out here in the "fly over country" FAA
towers with a scheduled air carrier flight due to arrive
stay open a few extra minutes. In the case of Raytheon
[Beech] their tower is private and they pay the bill. Most
towers are federal and the taxpayers pay the bill.
It is too bad that union rules, FAA rules and company
procedures could not work together to have the passengers in
comfort at their desired destination.

It's got nothing to do with the union. Here at BIL we never close so it
wouldn't be a factor but my last place, GFK, we were a 6am-midnight
operation. When we got there at 6 am there was usually a Fedex three
holer and a Northwest DC9 taxiing for takeoff. We were the third
releiver for MSP when the weather went to hell with snowstorms. I was
working the 4-12 one time when there was a blizzard in MSP. First
Rochester, then Fargo filled up with diverting jets. Then they came to
GFK. I kept the tower open an extra hour or so because of how many jets
landed, all with the intention of leaving after getting gas. That's
where the tower controller can help out. But one guy farting around in
bad weather? The tower controller wouldn't have affected anything one
way or the other.

Newps wrote:
But one guy farting around in
bad weather? The tower controller wouldn't have affected anything one
way or the other.

Except when, as someone else pointed out, the CAT II and III ILS
requires the tower to be open.

Now why is it required when the CAT I ILS doesn't? Is it navaid
monitoring, or something else?

Newps wrote:
I kept the tower open an extra hour or so

Does that mean the Class D Airspace was in existence an extra hour too?
What happens if I dutifully read my AFD and discover that the tower (and
the associated CDAS) closes at midnight, so I figure when I arrive at 12:30
I don't need to talk to anybody.

I fly in, enter the pattern, land, and taxi to the ramp without bothering
to self-announce. Have I broken any regulations?

You'd still try and get the ATIS before you got there wouldn't you? I
know at my home airport once the tower closes down the ATIS tells you
it's class E until 0630 local and gives the CTAF and for further
information contact New York App and gives their freq. Then the ASOS
says it's piece and the whole thing repeats. If I return late and hear
that I know the field is closed, if I get a standard ATIS broadcast I'd
for sure call the tower and see what they had to say.

I bet BOS was open, they have all sorts of approaches there and since
PVD tends to be a reliever for BOS (esp for those living south of
Boston) people wouldn't have minded too much. Of course SWA would have
had the logistics problem of finding a place to park and people to
handle them. Better to be 60 miles away from where you wanted to be
than 200.

Robert

Roy Smith wrote:
Newps wrote:

I kept the tower open an extra hour or so


Does that mean the Class D Airspace was in existence an extra hour too?
What happens if I dutifully read my AFD and discover that the tower (and
the associated CDAS) closes at midnight, so I figure when I arrive at 12:30
I don't need to talk to anybody.

I fly in, enter the pattern, land, and taxi to the ramp without bothering
to self-announce. Have I broken any regulations?

Does that mean the Class D Airspace was in existence an extra hour too?
What happens if I dutifully read my AFD and discover that the tower (and
the associated CDAS) closes at midnight, so I figure when I arrive at 12:30
I don't need to talk to anybody.

I fly in, enter the pattern, land, and taxi to the ramp without bothering
to self-announce. Have I broken any regulations?

In article ,
Robert Chambers wrote:

You'd still try and get the ATIS before you got there wouldn't you?

Maybe. If I didn't expect the tower to be open, I wouldn't expect there to
be anything interesting to hear on the ATIS so maybe I wouldn't have
bothered.

I probably would have self-announced on the CTAF (in which case the tower
would hear me and let me know they're still home), but that wasn't the
question. I'm asking a nit-picking silly "let's dissect the FARs on
usenet" kind of hypothetical question. If I just flew in and landed
without talking to anybody, would I have broken any rules?

Roy Smith wrote:
I'm asking a nit-picking silly "let's dissect the FARs on
usenet" kind of hypothetical question. If I just flew in and landed
without talking to anybody, would I have broken any rules?

Haha, sorry what was I thinking?

As long as the CTAF is the same as the tower frequency you probably
would get some feedback from the tower staff if they were open later
than normal.

At BDR they have an agreement with Sikorsky Heliport (JSD) that whenever
JSD is active it is on the BDR ATIS. Does this relieve the pilot of
calling JSD before transiting their airspace? "well the Bridgeport ATIS
didn't say JSD was active your honor". Personally regardless of what
the ATIS says I call out to JSD just in case. They are very
accommodating but the last thing I want to see is a blackhawk popping up
in front of me doing max climb testing.

Robert